Oklahoma officers Taser 86-year-old bedridden woman who scared them

June 25th, 2010 · 255 Comments

By Carlos Miller
Police in Oklahoma Tasered an 86-year-old bedridden woman after she “took an aggressive posture in her bed,” causing ten officers to fear for their lives, according to a lawsuit.

Lona Varner (From allgov.com)

The El Reno officers also stepped on Lona Varner’s oxygen hose, causing the elderly woman to suffer oxygen deprivation, states the lawsuit, which was filed this week in Oklahoma Federal Court.

However, the lawsuit does not mention that she allegedly threatened the officers with a knife.

According to the police report, Varner “took an aggressive posture in her bed and raised the knife above her head and said, ‘if you come any closer you’re getting the knife.’”

According to the lawsuit:

A severe winter storm was moving into the area and Ms. Varner’s grandson, Lonnie D. Tinsley, came to the apartment to check on her at the request of his father, now deceased; because

Lona Varner is 86 years-old and in marginal health, she takes several prescribed medications daily; Lonnie’s grandmother was unable to tell him exactly when she had taken her meds, he was
concerned and called 911 to ask for an emergency medical technician to come to her apartment to evaluate her.

As many as ten El Reno police, John Does Nos. 1 – 10, including Thomas Duran, Frank Tinga, and Joseph Sandberg, came to the apartment and pushed their way through the door. Ms. Varner told them to get out of her apartment. Instead, the apparent leader of the police (Duran) instructed another policeman to “Taser her!” He stated in his report that the 86 year-old plaintiff “took a more aggressive posture in her bed,” and that he was fearful for his safety and the safety of others.

Her grandson, Lonnie Tinsley, cried out, “Don’t tase my granny!”, which prompted the officers to threaten him with the taser gun instead.

They ended up handcuffing and throwing him in back of a squad car before proceeding to Taser his grandmother.

Then they grabbed her forearms, causing her skin to tear, and slapped handcuffs on her.

They transported her to the hospital where she was treated for taser burns to her chest as well as the bleeding wounds on her arms.

The officers ordered her placed in the psychiatric ward where she remained for six days.

It is not clear from the lawsuit what charges, if any, were filed against her.

Via Courthouse News Service.

Popularity: 7% [?]

Tags: First Amendment

255 responses so far ↓

1 Bill Cooper // Jun 25, 2010 at 3:05 PM

These people had to be harmed by the police. It was for their own good.
2 ClintJCL // Jun 25, 2010 at 3:07 PM

Cowardly pigs belong in a slaughterhouse.
ClintJCL recently posted..JOURNAL: MEDICAL: Cut my hand the worst I ever have with scissors in my life
3 RThomas // Jun 25, 2010 at 3:12 PM

For once, modern texting abbreviations sum it up:

OMG! WTF!
4 ClintJCL // Jun 25, 2010 at 3:13 PM

Whoever was involved with this should be criminally prosecuted,imprisoned, and prevented from ever working in a position where they have physical authority over another human being ever again.

You guys are scum, the lowest form of cowards ever, using our taxpayer money meant to serve and protect the public to assault the elderly instead.

You will lose your lawsuit, and the other 7 John Doe names must be released o the public.
ClintJCL recently posted..JOURNAL: MEDICAL: Cut my hand the worst I ever have with scissors in my life
5 hypocrisy rules // Jun 25, 2010 at 3:18 PM

We are now living in the world that once only existed in the imagination of science fiction writers. God help us all.
6 Roy // Jun 25, 2010 at 3:19 PM

This story so breaches the absolutely ridiculous that I’m hesitant to have an opinion. Surely more details must suggest something other than the, thus far, plain facts.

On the other hand, the story does picture what, albeit reluctantly, I have begun to expect….
7 Hey! // Jun 25, 2010 at 3:25 PM

This has nothing to do with photography you douchebag!

And where are all the cop ass-sniffers now?

I wanna hear how these ten (FUCKING TEN!) assholes are the exceptions to the rule.
8 xdamousex // Jun 25, 2010 at 3:28 PM

I don’t know about you all, but I sure feel safer.
9 MisterDNA // Jun 25, 2010 at 3:30 PM

You cop-hating hippies are always quick to take the side of 86 year-old bedridden women.

Haven’t any of you ever read Little Red Riding Hood? The brave policemen of El Reno, OK had no way of knowing if she was really an 86 year-old woman until they tased and handcuffed her. Until they had the situation under control, they had every reason to believe that she might have been the Big, Bad Wolf.
10 renegademag // Jun 25, 2010 at 3:45 PM

The guy getting jumped by those old people was taken by surprise and almost taken down. I think Jack Lalanne might have created an underground army of old people poised to take control. Don’t under estimate the strength of an 86 year old woman on oxygen and half dead. That’s when they have you. POUNCING right as you least expect it.
11 Calladus // Jun 25, 2010 at 4:15 PM

Wait… the grandson didn’t call for police, he called for an EMT. Why were the police even there?

This would make me less likely to call 911 for medical help.
Calladus recently posted..Won in the Emergency Room
12 Rich // Jun 25, 2010 at 4:27 PM

El Reno Police Department

City of El Reno
116 N Evans Ave
El Reno, OK 73036-0700
Phone – Non-emergency-(405) 262-6941, or 262-2121
Fax (405) 262-2128

I just called and left a message for the Chief of police. I left my name and number and asked him to call me back. He probably wont considering the message I left.
Totally outrageous. There is absolutely no justification for this.
The BUCK stops right with the police chief, if these allegations are true. HE should be fired if these allegations are true. The men who did it need to be behind bars.
13 Roger // Jun 25, 2010 at 4:31 PM

renegademag;
We are coming for you! You have reveled the secret plan and now must be eliminated. Look out we have torches, pitchforks and 100 proof Geritol.
14 Happy Tinfoil Cat // Jun 25, 2010 at 4:33 PM

You’ve never been a cop and you don’t know the sights we’ve seen. Granny could have had a grenade in her colostomy bag or a shank in her anus. We put our lives on the line daily to keep you safe. All we are trying to do is keep this great country, God’s country, from going to the mongrels and terrorists. She was clearly resisting arrest. Bleeding-heart liberal bloggers should either love this country or leave it, because you are either with us, or against us. And how dare you even think of questioning our tactics, you were not even there. hehehe just kidding.

“Don’t tase my granny!” my new buzz phrase.
15 Roger // Jun 25, 2010 at 4:34 PM

Look out, you have reveled the secrete plan. We are coming for you, we have torches, pitch forks and 100 prof Geritol.
16 2sid // Jun 25, 2010 at 4:43 PM

The police report paints a little different picture and appears to be substantiated by statements from EMS and hospital staff.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/33557136/El-Reno-Police-Department-Report-on-Lona-Varner
17 ClintJCL // Jun 25, 2010 at 4:45 PM

i couldn’t get to the document, could you maybe copy-paste the text here?
ClintJCL recently posted..JOURNAL: MEDICAL: Cut my hand the worst I ever have with scissors in my life
18 Nemo // Jun 25, 2010 at 4:52 PM

And police /never/ lie on their reports, no, not never! It’s a pysical impossibility for them to lie, in or out of uniform. They tell only 100% of the ungarnished Truth, unshaded by bias and untouched by personal agendas. Officers are selected by special, super-secret DNA testing, so that the only ones hired are those genetically incapable of telling a lie.

In further news, there is no “Blue Wall of Silence”, because the police are also genetically incapable of breaking the Law, a la Judge Dredd.

Feh.
19 Carlos Miller // Jun 25, 2010 at 4:56 PM

I just added that to the story.
20 2sid // Jun 25, 2010 at 4:56 PM

As noted, the police statements were confirmed by EMS and hospital staff. Does the Blue Wall of Silence include them? I’m assuming the 911 calls tapes will doctored too to add the suicidal suspect information as well the photos of the knife photoshopped to add a knife that wasn’t there.

As well, people filing lawsuits tell the exact truth as well regardless of whether the truth would adversely affect their case.
21 Happy Tinfoil Cat // Jun 25, 2010 at 4:56 PM

See? She had a shank AND Rambo skills.

LOL
22 Carlos Miller // Jun 25, 2010 at 5:03 PM

I uploaded it to this blog. Maybe you can see this version.

http://carlosmiller.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/33557136-Dallas-Org-El-Reno-Police-Report-on-Lona-Varner.pdf
23 2sid // Jun 25, 2010 at 5:07 PM

An additional note: Under Oklahoma law, police cannot order detainment for more than 72 hours. Detainment for longer than 72 hours requires a court order after evaluation by two Licensed Mental Professionals or a voluntary agreement by the patient to remain hospitalized. The steps for additional detainment beyond 72 hours would only occur if the Licensed Mental Professionals agreed that she posed a danger to herself or others.

The fact that the LMHPs felt she posed a danger and she either voluntarily consented to remain or a court order was obtained to detain her beyond 72 hours tends to support the position she was suicidal.

Here is the Oklahoma Bar Association paper on Civil Involuntary Commitment:
http://www.okbar.org/obj/articles_05/021205.htm

Here is the information
24 ClintJCL // Jun 25, 2010 at 5:07 PM

Hmm, that police report worked in Chrome but not Firefox. Anyway… Yeah, this was not the only way this had to happen. They’re still dicks, and they’re still wrong.
ClintJCL recently posted..JOURNAL: MEDICAL: Cut my hand the worst I ever have with scissors in my life
25 Nemo // Jun 25, 2010 at 5:10 PM

The report says nothing about her oxygen line that I can see, begins by classifying her as “suicidal” and self-justifies said conclusion throughout. The reporting officer states conclusively that medicines were taken in an OD attempt, and that the officer on-site interfered with the grandson’s attempts to retreive the alleged knife, and demanded that he calm his grnadmother down. The officer admits to taking a “bladed stance”, a known aggressive posture, although he makes the excuse that he was “taking cover”. The officer alleges that she said she “killed four Japs in WWII” and “would not bat an eye at killing you”. Verbal attempts were made at getting her to submit to Police Authority, but once they got bored with that, they decided to TASER her. The grandson got upset when they TASERed the little old lady on oxygen, so they arrested him and managed to cow him into submission.

The delusional old woman supposedly threatened to “snap the officer’s neck like a twig, like she did in WWII” while in custody. A serious threat from a woman so old that her skin “tears at the slightest touch” (Apparently, that fact was a mystery to the officer. He must avoid the elderly strenuously at other times, so he cannot have been expected to direct the other officers to take special care in subduing this vicious threat to society.) Other than that, they jugged her in the psycho ward, and split.
26 2sid // Jun 25, 2010 at 5:12 PM

One minor correction: the emergency detainment affidavit is completed by police but the determination that the individual is a danger to themselves or others is made by a Licensed Mental Health Professional after an examination conducted by the LMHP. So the police don’t order anyone confined to a psychiatric hospital, the LMHP does. Same link as above.
27 Nemo // Jun 25, 2010 at 5:22 PM

What tapes? Afraid she will “snap your neck like a twig” if you post them, or are you a cop who’s listened to that and is now doing official damage control spin?

I’m not sanguine about the OKC area cops’ ability to deal with the mentally ill. I used to live there, and while I did, there was a mental health patien who went off his meds and picked up a weed-cutter, a terrible risk to society. The cops in that case were so good at talking down the suspect, they killed him in a storm of gunfire.

Are other rescue personell part of the Blue Wall? Maybe, maybe not. I notice that you don’t claim that it doesn’t exist, though.
28 Nemo // Jun 25, 2010 at 5:27 PM

Does the LMHP make the assessment before or after the subject state of mind is escalated to a delusional state by the officer on-site? Does he/she make an independent assessment, or does he/she take a (nauturally) unbiased report from the officer who worked said subject into a frenzy?

Is the LMHP an unbiased observer, or just a rubber-stamp for the cops?
29 Happy Tinfoil Cat // Jun 25, 2010 at 5:51 PM

The one acquaintance I have that worked as an EMS said the “Blue Wall” includes them too. Reason is, they need the support of the cops as backup so they just keep silent.
30 riffenberg // Jun 25, 2010 at 6:03 PM

Why weren’t the cops arrested for assault and a host of other things? Tasers need to be taken away from cops. Cops think they are gods. I’ve got news for you, you aren’t.
riffenberg recently posted..ENDANGERED SEA TURTLES BEING BURNED ALIVE
31 Nilet // Jun 25, 2010 at 6:17 PM

If the cops aren’t arrested for assault and battery, attempted murder, false imprisonment, and perjury, then I may need to rethink my opinions on vigilante justice.
32 Roger // Jun 25, 2010 at 6:18 PM

This whole thange stinks, every needs theres kicked.
33 Yuck! // Jun 25, 2010 at 6:23 PM

If I ruled the world, cops who abuse their power severely like this would get the death penalty…….and thier execution will be broadcasted for all to see, including in front of the families of those cops, who will see thier loved ones hung or beaten. Cops should then think twice about abusing thier powers.
34 riffenberg // Jun 25, 2010 at 6:23 PM

I once got a glimpse into the psychological makeup of a person who becomes involved in law enforcement. In college,a pretty girl sitting next to me in art class drew a simple picture of two men hanging from the gallows. She looked at me, pointed to her drawing and said, “Isn’t that beautiful”? I’ll never forget it.
riffenberg recently posted..ENDANGERED SEA TURTLES BEING BURNED ALIVE
35 RH // Jun 25, 2010 at 6:28 PM

We need to start limiting police actions against citizens and make punishment more severe for these government goons.
36 Rance // Jun 25, 2010 at 7:17 PM

Just when I was starting to think my expectations of police couldn’t possibly get any lower…
37 Rance // Jun 25, 2010 at 7:21 PM

That’s good! Now let’s try it in English

(Drinking and typing eh? )
38 bgwillia // Jun 25, 2010 at 7:37 PM

Until seen with evidence to the contrary, one would have to assume the lady was somewhat delusional. I once spent a miserable evening in a hospital bed after major surgery while a gentleman next to me kept believing he was in a POW camp and kept tunneling through his bed. Couldn’t get any sleep through all that racket. In the morning he didn’t remember a bloody thing he said or did.

But dangerous? She had a knife and acted in a way the cops thought was a danger to herself and to others. The question ought to be is did the cops overreact and, in the process, violated her civil rights?
39 sean // Jun 25, 2010 at 7:41 PM

Hey Carlos….Get the dispatch audio! The grandson called for an EMT and Cops show up? Also the grandson alleges that he called for a medical checkup, not a thin skinned-suicidal-knife-wielding-jap killing-granny? Hmmm….dispatch audio should clarify those two discrepancies….and properly place the liability where it belongs.
40 Roger // Jun 25, 2010 at 7:42 PM

I am a photographer, not a secretary, I do not look good in a minny skirt. But as I said, they all need there buts kicked.
41 Roger // Jun 25, 2010 at 7:48 PM

Oh my god, there on to us! Ther broke granny’s cover! Whos next? Quick, ready the Ben-Gay bombs!
42 Roger // Jun 25, 2010 at 8:01 PM

O what is it coming to, people insist on owing guns and knives, now they have attack Granny’s. Police every where will have to prepare flying geriatric squads. DHS will have to expanded and prepare camps for the over 60 (just in case). Walkers will have to be registered to prevent walk by pipe bombs. There coming, there coming!
43 Rance // Jun 25, 2010 at 8:13 PM

lmao I hear ya. I was just bustin’ your chops.
44 Roger // Jun 25, 2010 at 8:38 PM

I know, was a good vinger.
45 Roger // Jun 25, 2010 at 8:39 PM

O god xinger not vinger. Keep geting my fingers stuck.
46 Roger // Jun 25, 2010 at 8:56 PM

When I get pissed, and I am pissed, I tend to use black humor in an effort to be little and insult the problem and the people responsible. I also tend to drop syllables and miss spell words. I am pissed about this, would like to strangle every cop there.
There is no excuse for this, this is cowardes and arrogance of the highest order. At the least they should be fired and black balled from ever working in the public sector again.
47 Virtualfrog // Jun 25, 2010 at 9:19 PM

There is no comment I can make. This speaks for itslef.
48 Jody // Jun 25, 2010 at 9:58 PM

Fucking filth, they should all be tied up, tased and left out in the desert to die, assholes.
Jody recently posted..Planning To Talk to a Reporter?
49 The Straw Buyer // Jun 25, 2010 at 11:22 PM

The use of the taser is debatable but why do you need ten cops and EMS?
The Straw Buyer recently posted..I reckon we got fraud, UH HUH!
50 Roger // Jun 25, 2010 at 11:33 PM

Got to be fair, one bedreden old woman, ten Oke cops, even match.
51 All Be Damned // Jun 26, 2010 at 12:04 AM

They need the ems to wake you up after they taser your ass so they can do it again…….
52 Ben // Jun 26, 2010 at 12:10 AM

Wow. Unbelievable. They all need to be fired.
Ben recently posted..Amelia Lays an Egg
53 Oklahoma Johnny // Jun 26, 2010 at 1:35 AM

Have you ever seen that Jack Lalane? That dude is 100 and fit as hell. Can’t really blame the officers for tasing her… she probably knows Granny-fu. Makes perfect sense to me.
54 Josh // Jun 26, 2010 at 4:38 AM

Wow, can’t believe noone has said this!

It’s GROSS NEGLIGENCE on the cops behalf, for even using the taser! Oxygen in the presence of a spark / high electrical current? Doesn’t it seem as though this could be a LOT worse had the room gone ka-boom? … eliminating 10 of Oke’s “finest” from the gene pool.

Sorta like tasing people with pace makers, ‘ya know?
55 John Doe // Jun 26, 2010 at 4:49 AM

If the cops leave, and granny stabs a medic and/or her son, or she dies from a drug OD, everyone who has commented here will come and comment on how the cops were responsible for the stabbings and the OD. So what are the cops to do? Simple, just pull back away and wait. Just mark out of service and wait things out. If that means a few hours OT, so be it. If it means that other citizens now must wait hours for a police response for a non-life threatening incident, so be it. Cops are now damned if they do, damned if they don’t. They touch granny, they have “manhandled her.” They taz granny, they have “brutalized her. ” If they do nothing and she dies from an OD, they have “killed her.” If they allow the medics to proceed with care and the medics get hurt, everyone will blame the cops.

Life is valued above all, and everyone here has already put their bias views into this situation. This reminds me of the “grandma” who was Tasered down south on a traffic stop. She denied to no end that she did anything wrong, didn’t curse, etc.. Went on TV to proclaim her angelic actions. Then the dash cam comes out. Here was a defiant, seemingly very healthy “grandma” swearing and cursing and defining authority simply because she believes her age gives her the right to do anything she wants. Then the reporters go back to granny’s house to question her about her behavior. This time, she decides not to talk.

With all the hate thrown at LE, it is no wonder only power trippers and idiots are now the ones with badges. You folks have made it so you take one side and blast LEO. This has done nothing more than to scare away good folks from becoming cops. I tell young folks all the time not to become a uniformed law enforcement officer. I tell them their every action will be criticized, that most smart folks avoid LE, and they should too.
56 Pinandpuller // Jun 26, 2010 at 6:12 AM

John Doe

They could have thrown a towel over her head and got the knife away-like hooding a falcon.

Grabbed some oven mitts for fuck’s sake.

Smacked her in the head with her slippers.

Hooked her wrist with an umbrella.

Pinned her arm to the bed with knitting needles.

Toilet plunger, Febreeze, hey look-Phil Donahue!

I once got a horse out of a cattle-guard by throwing down a 4×8 sheet of plywood so he could climb out. A cop would have just shot it.
57 Rich // Jun 26, 2010 at 9:57 AM

Well John my first post was made before I knew this women had a knife. I called the chief and his Secretary now it seems I need to call back and apologize being that I reacted without knowing all the facts. However I do believe they were capable of handling violent bedridden people before they invented tasors
There was no need for the use of the Tasor. IT was very bad judgment.
Tasors should never be used on Bedridden people there is no excuse for it.
58 Sam // Jun 26, 2010 at 10:29 AM

Carlos, I love your blog when you stick to photography and I tend to agree with you, but this post seems ridiculous. This is your blog, not some automatic news feed of any story that can be spun anti-police. Exercise some editorial judgement! Unless there’s some evidence to the contrary, this seems like the police were trying to prevent someone from killing herself, and acted responsibly doing so.
59 RH // Jun 26, 2010 at 10:39 AM

Only thugs and cowards would tazer an 86 year old woman.

I saw the coward cop taze the 72 year old woman as well for fucking speeding violation.

Tazers clubs and guns are three things modern day cops should not have anymore, those are people you stupid ass dimwit cops. You chose the job donut munchers nobody forced you to be a people beater, How many inocent people get gunned down by you ruthless bastards each year or killed in your stupid renagade car chases?

How many here would want to see one of these cowards taze their elderly loved one for a goddamn speeding ticket?
60 Scott Smith // Jun 26, 2010 at 10:46 AM

Old ladies scare me sometimes too. What with the wrinkles and all. I just man up and deal with it though. It never occurred to me that I should be tasering the scariness out of them. I’ll have to remember that in the future.
61 oscar finch // Jun 26, 2010 at 10:47 AM

Would you people rather have her stab herself then get tasered? Stop being such pussies about everything, in real life shit happens, if tasering granny stops her from sticking a knife in her chest then I guess that is the lessor of two evils.
62 RH // Jun 26, 2010 at 10:49 AM

Heres another coward losing control and then lies about it, why do cops lie so much, is that part of the training???????????????

http://www.ktlkfm.com/cc-common/news/videos/player.html?mid=VIRAL/LiveLeak-dot-com-7d7781ceefab-police_brutality__nyc_cop_beat.wmv&redir=yes
63 Johnny Law // Jun 26, 2010 at 11:06 AM

Or…wait for it…they could have used a legal and authorized less lethal weapon such as the taser to disarm her safely.

Put a towel over her head? Really? I can see this place hasn’t changed much.
Johnny Law recently posted..So long and thanks for all the fish
64 Hazy // Jun 26, 2010 at 11:28 AM

Maybe next they will charge the grandma for the cost of electricity used to discharge the tazer on her.
65 bgwillia // Jun 26, 2010 at 11:33 AM

As integrated the emergency services are, it is routine for the nearest cop to show before any other service does. The ambulance don’t carry doctors so the hospital is going to be the destination once the EMT crew determine she’s stable enough for transport. The grandson waved his and his grandmother’s fourth amendment right when he invited the cop in, who got confronted by a “thin skinned-suicidal-knife-wielding-jap killing-granny” and called for backup. And the cops will do whatever action required to insure they’re going home to their families, so they’re not doing CQB with granny. As Oklahoma is not Oregon in that suicide is not a legal option to exit this world, granny is going to the hospital straight-up or over the saddle.
66 Kol. Klink // Jun 26, 2010 at 12:07 PM

Police are an occupation force, just like the army occupies Iraq. Just like Israel occupies Palestine.

Government/subject relationships are just like a BDSM novella.

It’s us against them. The “Only Ones” vs. “civilians, goyim, raghead, jihadis, mundanes, terrorists” or whatever put-down term the “authoritahs” use.

“Civilians simply must comply with instructions from police officers,” insists Seattle City Attorney Pete Holmes.

The Police State’s ‘Cardinal Rule’: The Mundane Must Submit
http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w153.html
67 mepsipax // Jun 26, 2010 at 12:20 PM

Wow and sexist too. Great combo.
mepsipax recently posted..Is that my superpower
68 mepsipax // Jun 26, 2010 at 12:25 PM

10 cops and 1 granny….oh no they didn’t escalate shit at all.
mepsipax recently posted..Is that my superpower
69 mepsipax // Jun 26, 2010 at 12:27 PM

Even with a knife she was not much of a threat. A tazer is…like you said, I less lethal weapon….it can still be lethal.
mepsipax recently posted..Is that my superpower
70 John Howard // Jun 26, 2010 at 4:14 PM

Damn good thing they stopped her. She might have risen right out of that bed and gone on an all-night, running all over town, neck-snapping, homicidal rage.

Or possibly they could have just wait 10 minutes until she dozes off again.
71 Roger // Jun 26, 2010 at 4:42 PM

Hay, I like girls, what do you mean sexist? I like girls, there soft and squeezeiey, and they smell nice. The world needs more of these delightful creatures.
72 Kevin Benko // Jun 26, 2010 at 9:14 PM

You people just don’t understand the threat that old people are. When the Zombie Apocalypse comes, the old ones will be amongst the first of the living dead. The CopThugs were obviously aware of the impending zombie hordes in our near future and reacted accordingly….
73 Johnny Law // Jun 26, 2010 at 9:47 PM

Folks aren’t getting tased for speeding moron. They are getting tased for resisting arrest or threatening an officer. It’s not the original offense that matters. It is the actions of the suspect once police make contact. Think real hard and maybe it will make sense to you.
Johnny Law recently posted..So long and thanks for all the fish
74 Johnny Law // Jun 26, 2010 at 9:54 PM

That article you linked to is ridiculous. Imagine if the public had the right to resist an arrest when they didn’t think they should be arrested. I know that you think this would be a wonderful utopia but it would actually be a disaster. Police would end up having to fight everyone and police tactics would probably be mush rougher to prevent the inevitable fight from the suspect. The chick in that video deserved a punch in the face but OC spray would have worked just as well.
Johnny Law recently posted..So long and thanks for all the fish
75 No Rulers // Jun 26, 2010 at 10:48 PM

So, what you’re saying is that it’s OK for the Fuzz to zap someone with a taser because that someone doesn’t kiss their butt or acknowledge the supreme authority of the Fuzz?

Sounds to me that the cops are compensating for some sort of inferiority complex. Like an overinflated ego to hide the fact that they are wimps who face less risk in their job than does a pizza delivery guy.
76 Rance // Jun 26, 2010 at 11:13 PM

“Imagine if the public had the right to resist an arrest when they didn’t think they should be arrested.”

http://www.justia.com/criminal/docs/calcrim/2600/2672.html

They do. Imagine if all cops knew this. There would be alot fewer unlawful arrests. If cops would learn that being a cop doesn’t make them superior to the rest of society, get over the constant fascist power trip associated with the badge, treat people with respect, and actually spend some time learning the laws they are paid by the public to enforce, maybe cops wouldn’t have to “fight everyone” or use rougher tactics.

Try treating people with a little respect, take an ethics course, and read a law book once in a while and you’ll be just fine.

As it is now, there aren’t many cops that treat people with even the slightest bit of respect, hence they catch an attitude aimed back at them, and natural resistance.
77 Pinandpuller // Jun 27, 2010 at 4:02 AM

Please excuse Johnny Law-cops don’t have much experience with or empathy for old people.

Most cops eat their guns or die from heart attacks or alcohol abuse long before they reach that skin-tearing age.

I worked for an O2 company for a year and a half-I’m pretty sure I could have lassoed her arm with a cannula.

I can’t wait till the first time a hail of bullets hits a LOX tank because the lung cancer victim on 15 lpm won’t sit up and identify themself when the cops bust in the door.
78 Joel // Jun 27, 2010 at 5:19 AM

Three words for you Oklahoma Chicken Sh*t Cops
79 Kol. Klink // Jun 27, 2010 at 9:08 AM

Johnny Law = Authoritarian Submissive personality.

(1) They are highly submissive to established authority

(2) Aggressive in the name of that authority

(3) Conventional to the point of insisting everyone should behave as their authorities decide.

The Authoritarians
Bob Altemeyer
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

Not all of us are bootlickers like you, Johnny.
80 Johnny Law // Jun 27, 2010 at 11:13 AM

You should actually read the articles you link to;

“However, even if the arrest was unlawful, as long as the officer used only reasonable force to accomplish the arrest, the defendant may be guilty of the lesser crime of (battery[,]/ [or] assault[,]/ [or] assault with (force likely to produce great bodily injury/a deadly weapon/a firearm/a semiautomatic firearm/a machine gun/an assault weapon)).”

It is illegal to resist an arrest even if you don’t agree with it. Thats a good thing otherwise it would be anarchy with every nutjob claiming their rights were being violated.

The cops in this incident prevented the woman from committing suicide and got her medical attention. They were trying to help her and I doubt they were very happy about having to use the taser. However a reasonable person can’t expect them to just walk up and get slashed with a knife.

The force used was reasonable and this lawsuit will be tossed out. Heck, the officers should get a commendation for helping save a life.
81 Roger // Jun 27, 2010 at 11:16 AM

Tasers are not non-lethal, just less. They should be used ONLY when deadly force would be other wise be used. When you tase some one you are electrocuting him, it is just that he will recover, most of the time. There are a number of cases of death or permant damage due to tasers, Taser’s BS to the country. There was a very good chance of her death.
82 Scott Smith // Jun 27, 2010 at 12:18 PM

Yes, yes it is.
83 Scott Smith // Jun 27, 2010 at 12:39 PM

The public does have a right to resist. This is the United States of America not East Germany.

Maybe if the police were better trained and actually knew and understood the laws they were supposed to uphold, there would be a lot less problems like this. As it is, the police are un/undereducated thugs with god complexes. They think that shield they hide behind all day makes them better than the public they are sworn to protect.

Check this out; http://twitter.com/InjusticeNews , go down the list. There’s plenty of examples of people who should have resisted an arrest. Instead, they wound up being raped, beaten or even killed by the boys in blue. The only difference between a cop and a criminal is which side of the cell door he’s standing on.

Take away all of their tasers, guns and billy clubs. Start training these pigs to diffuse a situation with their words, like the rest of us had to learn in kindergarten.
84 Roger // Jun 27, 2010 at 1:17 PM

As an addendum to the above. Sense June 2001, there have been over 351 deaths related to the use of tassers.
85 Rance // Jun 27, 2010 at 1:23 PM

I did read it Johnny.

“On the other hand, if the officer used unreasonable or excessive force, and the defendant used only reasonable force in (self-defense/ [or] defense of another), then the defendant is not guilty of the lesser crime[s] of (battery[,]/ [or] assault[,]/ [or] assault with (force likely to produce great bodily injury/a deadly weapon/a firearm/a semiautomatic firearm/a machine gun/an assault weapon)).”

“The force used was reasonable and this lawsuit will be tossed out.” – I disagree with you that the force used was reasonable. There are many ways to disarm someone, especially the elderly, without causing them any harm. Cops don’t take into consideration that if they tase someone with a pacemaker, or an irregular heartbeat (without a pacemaker), they can kill them instantly. Instead it’s the fascist attitude of cops (and I’ll quote your site) “Good, Bad, I’m the guy with the gun”, that takes precedent. Nothing else matters.

The officer got lucky that she didn’t die from being tased.
86 Johnny Law // Jun 27, 2010 at 2:01 PM

There are courts for a reason. There are civil lawsuits for a reason. That is where you get your chance to contest your arrest. If this was East Germany, then people wouldn’t be allowed to post ignorant crap advocating fighting with police. Making such ridiculous comparisons just weakens your arguments.
87 Johnny Law // Jun 27, 2010 at 2:03 PM

@Rance

So you think a taser is not a reasonable response to a person waving a knife around? Or is it simply because the person with the knife was elderly? I didn’t know that knives were no longer dangerous in the hands of an old person. Does that apply to guns too?
88 Johnny Law // Jun 27, 2010 at 2:07 PM

“Tasers are not non-lethal, just less. They should be used ONLY when deadly force would be other wise be used.”

This is a ridiculous statement. I know of many incidents where the taser failed or was ineffective. If police are restricted to using them in deadly force situations, then officers aren’t going to take the risk that the taser would fail. A gun is much more effective and officers would just use that and the taser would stay holstered.
If you retrict tasers to the same level as a gun, you might as well get rid of the taser altogether.
89 Johnny Law // Jun 27, 2010 at 2:08 PM

I doubt this number. Just because a taser was used at some point does not make it the cause of death.
90 Ariel // Jun 27, 2010 at 2:11 PM

Josh,
Oxygen is not a fuel its an oxidizer, it doesn’t go boom. Other things have to be burning first and then they just burn a lot faster, and I mean a lot faster. Light a match in a high oxygen environment and you’ll burn the hell out of your fingers, that’s it.

Oxygen tanks can burst at high temps and then greatly increase the fire intensity and propagation. But no explosion.
91 Rance // Jun 27, 2010 at 2:50 PM

“I know of many incidents where the taser failed or was ineffective.”

Like in April 2006, USA, when a 56 year old, wheelchair bound woman dies after ten police issued Taser shocks, death ruled homicide.

Give me a break Johnny Law. I can cite plenty more incidents where police were too eager to use a taser on someone, and it resulted in the person’s death. Sorry, but there is just NO need to taser a wheelchair bound woman 10 times.

Before Tasers were used, cops were trained on how to restrain a suspect properly. Now we get stories like this “Officers responding to a welfare check of a man in a tree in Kitsap County accidentally shot the man in an attempt to use a Taser on him. The man had been holed up in the tree for hours. An officer used his Taser on the man and after it had no affect, the officer asked another officer to Taser the man. The other officer accidentally used his gun instead of his Taser and the man in the tree was shot. The man sustained one gunshot wound and was taken to Harborview Medical Center in Seattle.” -kirotv.com

Should I even cite the BART incident?

“I doubt this number. Just because a taser was used at some point does not make it the cause of death.”

Just because YOU doubt it, does not make it any less of a FACT.
92 oscar finch // Jun 27, 2010 at 3:31 PM

What an ignorant thing to say. So I guy is holding a knife to his throat and saying he is going to kill himself and you think it would not be ok to taser him? What should they do?
93 Roger // Jun 27, 2010 at 3:45 PM

Right, in many cases and departments yhat is just what should be doon.
94 Roger // Jun 27, 2010 at 3:48 PM

These are verified cases, Amnesty International list them, for one.
95 oscar finch // Jun 27, 2010 at 3:48 PM

351 deaths is nothing. According to you people cops are taser happy, they taser people for speeding and jaywalking and all oher minor offenses. Let’s say there is 500,000 cops in the USA and let’s say each cop tases somebody 10 times a year. That’s a 5 million tases a year. For over 10 years that’s 50,000,000. That’s a fatality rate of .000007.

Of those 351 how many were high on drugs?

If tasering an 88 year old bed ridden lady doesn’t kill her I think that is proof tasers are safe.

Don’t you think its funny that no cops have died from being tasered.
96 Roger // Jun 27, 2010 at 3:59 PM

There is no room here to list even a few of the cases. I recommend you Gogol “taser deaths” some time, it is very enlightening. I found it to be rather frightening.
97 Roger // Jun 27, 2010 at 4:05 PM

Aug, but they have. The Army forbids the use of tasers in training because of this. They consider them to be deadly weapons and apply the same use of force rules as guns.
98 oscar finch // Jun 27, 2010 at 4:16 PM

Roger, post a link that shows an officer was killed by a taser. Your right that they are a less lethal weapon not a nonlethal weapon so there is some risk. Look at the number of taserings vs the number of deaths and you can see they are safe. Most people who die after being tasered are high on drugs and the world is better off without them.

Like I said, if the taser didn’t kill this old bag then they can’t be too dangerous.
99 Roger // Jun 27, 2010 at 4:36 PM

I am not saying not to use them but to use them intelligently. As for the link I am looking. It was a case where a widow was suing a department over her husbands death after being shocked by a taser in training, I went to the sight but it has been puled down. Taser, inc, is very protective and sues and intimidates any who criticize them. Google this, there is a lot of infomartion.
100 oscar finch // Jun 27, 2010 at 4:58 PM

So you no longer think they should only be used when lethal force is justified?
101 Henry Lawless // Jun 27, 2010 at 5:05 PM

Johnny Law:

You are seriously deluded on something.
Consider the Supreme Court ruling in John Bad Elk v. The United States (177 U.S. 529):

The High Court pointed out, Bad Elk was not obliged to submit to an unlawful arrest, and he “had the right to use such force as was absolutely necessary to resist an attempted illegal arrest….” Furthermore, ruled the Court, “the law looks with very different eyes upon the transaction when the officer had the right to make the arrest from what it does if the officer had no such right. What might be murder in the first case might be nothing more than manslaughter in the other, or the facts might show that no offense had been committed.”

So, Johnny Law, it is not necessarily a crime to resist an unlawful arrest, even if that resistance takes the form of violence against the police.

PS: I am not currently licensed to practice law in the United States of America.
102 Rance // Jun 27, 2010 at 5:11 PM

I found an article where an officer died after being hit by a taser during training, though it appears it wasn’t the actual shock that killed him. He died from an infection where the probe entered, and gave 3rd degree burns, to his arm.
Taser, Int’l. vehemently denied claims that the infection was caused by taser probe burning his flesh. Two other officers were severely injured, one with spinal fractures related to the shock. Both sued taser.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/nov/23/cops-raise-taser-safety-claims/

I also found this while I was searching.

http://jonathanturley.org/2010/01/14/taser-tots-kankakee-police-officer-tasers-children-in-demonstration/

It isn’t about a taser death, though it just goes to show the reckless abandon that some officers have with the use of their tasers.
103 Roger // Jun 27, 2010 at 5:32 PM

No, I mean only when the need out weighs the possibly of death.
104 Josh // Jun 27, 2010 at 5:56 PM

Are you fucking retarded?
105 Rance // Jun 27, 2010 at 6:06 PM

@Johnny Law

No idiot, but the woman didn’t pull the knife out until the COPS entered her home, which she obviously was opposed to. The cops escalated the situation merely by being there. There are better ways to deal with dellusional elderly people than by bringing untrained, trigger happy cops into the mix to aggravate them.
106 Johnny Law // Jun 27, 2010 at 6:37 PM

Amnesty International is completely biased. They normally twist every incident to make the taser look at fault. Show me documentation from an independent investigation. There hasn’t been any that show the taser to be the great killer it’s made out to be by Amnesty.
107 Johnny Law // Jun 27, 2010 at 6:43 PM

Those examples have nothing to do with the voltage delivered by the taser. Of course falls and puncture wounds can cause injury. You can get that from simply wrestling with the police. The link about the kids shows the officer used bad judgement but it also has nothing to do with the risks of the taser.
108 Johnny Law // Jun 27, 2010 at 6:46 PM

Not sure what your point is about the guy getting shot out of the tree or the BART incident. Both were due to a mistake made by the officers. That is why most departments make you carry the taser on the off side so you don’t get it confused with your actual gun. It doesn’t address the appropriateness of using a taser to subdue a subject.
109 Johnny Law // Jun 27, 2010 at 7:02 PM

@Henry Lawless

You are quoting a court case from the year 1900. There are about a dozen states that allow the right to resist an unlawful arrest. However most states do not allow this. The thing is, even in the few states where you can resist an unlawful arrest, this means an ACTUAL unlawful arrest. It doesn’t mean an arrest you disagree with. I think this important distinction would get most of the folks on this board in trouble.

You think weed should be legal and you want to resist an arrest for possession? Too bad. You think jaywalking is a chickenshit charge and you don’t want to go to jail for it? Tough shit. If someone is threatening to kill themselves, has a knife, and is refusing to comply with demands of the police, there is nothing unlawful about using a taser on that person.

Just because a person gets found not guilty in court or charges get dropped doesn’t mean that the officer didn’t have probable cause to make the original arrest. Be careful before you start to fight off that speeding ticket. I don’t think you will like the results.
110 Rance // Jun 27, 2010 at 7:23 PM

“but it also has nothing to do with the risks of the taser.”

I never said it did. Read it again.

“It isn’t about a taser death, though it just goes to show the reckless abandon that some officers have with the use of their tasers.“
111 Ariel // Jun 27, 2010 at 7:34 PM

The taser was originally sold to the public as an alternative to using a gun, where a gun was too much force but other weapons were too little. It is now a compliance tool, or an “officer safety” tool which translates to “I don’t want a bruise or a scratch” but I’m “the bravest of the brave and paid to put my life on the line”.

Really, an 82 year-old bedridden women scares you? Like a 12 lb Daschund or a Lab running away from you? (Dogs that were shot because of Officer fear for safety, shudder….) Really, the Sheeple are braver.

About the only time I’ve agreed with the UN: the taser is a tool to torture for compliance.
112 Johnny Law // Jun 27, 2010 at 8:14 PM

I think the taser was misunderstood by some members of the public who are a bit naive. It certainly is an officer safety tool. You seem very eager for the police to attempt to disarm an armed subject with just their bare hands. I seriously doubt you would have charged in and tried to pry the knife out of that old lady’s hands. Of course that doesn’t stop you from implying that the police should have done just that.
113 ClintJCL // Jun 27, 2010 at 8:38 PM

But that’s not what happened. The cops could have just left. A bedridden person is not a threat because they can’t actually physically get to you unless you deliberately place yourself in their reach.
ClintJCL recently posted..links for 2010-06-26
114 ClintJCL // Jun 27, 2010 at 8:39 PM

First off, being high on drugs is not a capital crime punishable by summary execution without a trial.

Second off, your fatality rate was based off of numbers you completely made up.

Mental masturbation: Not the best way to get an accurate picture of reality.
ClintJCL recently posted..links for 2010-06-26
115 ClintJCL // Jun 27, 2010 at 8:41 PM

Actually, Johnny Law, it is Taser International who has gone out of the way to INVOKE LAWSUITS AGAINST CORONERS to force them to change the cause of death from ‘taser’ to ‘excited delirium’, a condition the AMA did not even recognize at the time of suit.

I will happily provide the link proving this. Now do you have a link for Amnesty International twisting things? Nope? Didn’t think so.

coughdouchecough
ClintJCL recently posted..links for 2010-06-26
116 oscar finch // Jun 27, 2010 at 9:41 PM

Imagine that Carlos didn’t report the whole story.
117 Coldt7 // Jun 27, 2010 at 9:48 PM

ASSHOLE!!!!
118 Coldt7 // Jun 27, 2010 at 9:52 PM

@MisterDNA,you need to seek some serious mental help.And stop trying to be a comedian,because you ain’t got it!!!
119 Rance // Jun 27, 2010 at 10:18 PM

Clearly nobody understood your blatant sarcasm.
120 Rance // Jun 27, 2010 at 10:22 PM

Clearly nobody understood your blatant sarcasm Bill.
121 Sydney Carton // Jun 27, 2010 at 11:55 PM

The reason the cops tased her was not because they were afraid. If that were really true, then those cops are absolute cowards. Besides, they could have easily backed away if they were really afraid. If she whipped out a weapon that had range, then they would’ve stepped back

The real reason they attacked her was because she wasn’t complying with their orders to calm down. They didn’t care if she was old, confused, sick, or needed medication to calm her. They only wanted to enforce their will on her. That’s why they tased her.

Cops are consistently authoritarian and don’t give a crap about circumstances or the context. They will shoot you with a taser if you’re having a seizure, if you’re in desperate need of medical help, etc. There are plenty of news stories like this if one wants to google them. Hell, I’m awaiting the case where they tase a pregnant woman giving birth because she’s not complying with their orders to keep silent.

The answer here is to destroy the pathetic sense of authority that these cops have. Lawsuits aren’t enough. You need to personally disrespect them in every circumstance you interact with them, because once police see that they are merely thug revenue collectors instead of being the protectors of society they’re supposed to be, maybe they’ll achieve a little well needed humility.
122 oscar finch // Jun 27, 2010 at 11:58 PM

First off I didn’t say it was a capital crime to be high on drugs. I was just pointing out that maybe the drugs killed some if those people not the taser.

To say they were executed you would have to prove inbtent to kill by the police. Now I don’t think you can say they have any intent to kill when they taser somebody since they get tasered themselves. Anybody who voluntarily gets tasered can’t believe it will resultin death.

As far as my numbers are concerned I made them up based on your peoples opinions that cops taser everybody for anything. If you don’t agree with my numbers then maybe they aren’t as taser happy as you think. Also I didn’t include Canada even though I believe they are figured in the 351 deaths.
123 oscar finch // Jun 28, 2010 at 12:08 AM

She was threatening to kill herself and had the means to do it. If they walked away and she killed herself would you be crying that the police didn’t do their job and the family should sue?
124 oscar finch // Jun 28, 2010 at 12:20 AM

Hey syd way to just ignore the fact that she had a knife and was suicidle.

That’s like calling a man a pediphile for touching a little boy and ignoring the fact that he is a doctor performing a physical.

What a pathetic group of cry babies, unbelievable….
125 They Want You Fired // Jun 28, 2010 at 12:47 AM

I live in an unincorporated area near a large city. Our county fire and rescue will normally answer calls for service without any law enforcement (sheriff) assistance. If we specifically ask for a deputy they will send one but otherwise not. In 11 years here we have had the sheriff out to the house one time. I’ve called 911 twice, once for the neighbor’s shed being totally engulfed in flames. I rarely see law enforcement out here. We have little crime, most people have big dogs and guns so they stay out of here. Neighbors watch out for one another and take care of themselves. Go a few miles down the road into the city and things are quite different. People there expect the city to take care of them from cradle to grave. There is a culture of expecting the city to solve all their problems and they call 911 if their trash collection is late. There have been eight people shot to death by the city cops since January. There are swat scenes daily, schools locked down daily, and major streets closed by machine gun toting swat goons. What I can’t figure out is why people give up their freedoms to a municipal corporation and end up not being safer but more victimized.
126 2sid // Jun 28, 2010 at 1:30 AM

The LMHP makes an independent assessment because they are liable for sanctions by their professional association for “failure to advocate for the patient.” In addition to the first exam, two additional exams are conducted by two different LMHP — one of whom must be an MD.

Let me ask you — if you were a LMHP would you bow to the pressure of the police in your assessment? That seems to be the issue here. Everyone here assumes that evil people are just out to get you. But most of the people involved in this story are just like you. They go to work, do their job honestly.
127 Johnny Law // Jun 28, 2010 at 3:33 AM

So Amnesty International puts pressure on medical examiners to change their findings so that it fits their (Amnesty’s) agenda? And you don’t consider this trying to twist facts? I wonder what world you live in.
128 Johnny Law // Jun 28, 2010 at 3:36 AM

Facts don’t seem to get in the way on this site. It’s all about twisting something to fit their anti-cop agenda.
129 Dave // Jun 28, 2010 at 9:42 AM

I read this and just feel sad all over. I spent a good deal of my life as a paramedic. This women could have been very easy to handle. Police and ems never take time to talk to people anymore. Situations like this become a pissing match, or the emergency personnel don’t use their brains.

This lady was bed ridden, and was only a danger to herself if you kept at a distance. Just use a little compassion, and take some time to talk to the patient. I’ve seen so many fellow emt’s and medics quick to call in police or wrestle patients down. Let’s not even get into how most suicidal patients are mistreated by fire, police, and hospital personnel.
Most suicidal people we get ems calls on just want someone to talk to, and someone to listen. The truly serious ones are usually dead long before we reach them.

for gods sake, take some time and talk to the women. Yes, you can have the taser ready in case she looks like she is going to use it on herself, but there was no reason to use it yet.

It seems like so many cops are just looking for a chance to use a taser,. It’s like a toy they are just dying to play with.

Again, it’s not just cops at fault here…it seems many of the young fire and ems can’t take the time and interact with their patients.

I’m so glad I retired.
130 Roger // Jun 28, 2010 at 10:48 AM

Anti cop? What ever gave you that idea? I was one for 12 years, I am not anti cop, I am anti stupid. My problem is with many of the ones coming on now who are arrogant, over bearing and have no common sense. I see it all the time and so do you, unless you are one of them and I doubt that. Do not give an automatic reaction, you seem too intelligent for that. Good police work is a calling and deserves far more than many are giving it, we need to weed the bad ones out.
131 RThomas // Jun 28, 2010 at 10:51 AM

Sci-fi author Isaac Asimov predicted the Taser, sort of; he called it the Neuronic Whip.
132 oscar finch // Jun 28, 2010 at 10:55 AM

Why only 12 years Roger. I thought cops had to work. 20-25 years before they could retire.
133 Dodge Ball // Jun 28, 2010 at 10:57 AM

Just like a baton, which is supposed to be less-than-lethal, its improper use can easily inflict trauma or become lethal. Reckless abandonment is correct. The use of a taser is a form of hitting the “easy” button. It keeps the officer(s) from touching the subject until submission takes place and it is not as messy. Collateral exposure to chemical agents is avoided as well. Sure, the major concept behind its use is for officer safety. WTF? They are paid to manage “difficult” people. If an officer resorts to the use of a taser at the drop of a hat, I feel that he should find another line of work, as he is a pussy. I just don’t like them for the reason that the nervous system operates on electrical impulses. Bombarding it with a crazy amount of disruptive voltage is more than invasive, it has the potential of making things unnecessarily ugly and permanent.
134 Johnny Law // Jun 28, 2010 at 12:57 PM

Dave were you there? How do you know the police didn’t try to talk her down? You are making an awful lot of assumptions.

The report and articles make it clear that she didn’t want to listen to anything the police were saying. Sooner or later you have to take some action.
135 Johnny Law // Jun 28, 2010 at 1:11 PM

@ Roger

You ask what gave the idea this site was anti-cop? Are you joking with me?

“Cowardly pigs belong in a slaughterhouse.”
“You guys are scum, the lowest form of cowards ever…”
“Tasers need to be taken away from cops. Cops think they are gods. I’ve got news for you, you aren’t.”
“If the cops aren’t arrested for assault and battery, attempted murder, false imprisonment, and perjury, then I may need to rethink my opinions on vigilante justice.”
“If I ruled the world, cops who abuse their power severely like this would get the death penalty…….and thier execution will be broadcasted for all to see, including in front of the families of those cops, who will see thier loved ones hung or beaten. ”
“We need to start limiting police actions against citizens and make punishment more severe for these government goons.”
“Fucking filth, they should all be tied up, tased and left out in the desert to die, assholes.”
“Take away all of their tasers, guns and billy clubs. Start training these pigs to diffuse a situation with their words, like the rest of us had to learn in kindergarten.”

Yeah no idea where that came from.
136 Sydney Carton // Jun 28, 2010 at 1:29 PM

You have confirmed exactly what I thought happeped: the police tased her (in your words, “take some action”) because they she wasn’t complying with their demands (“didn’t want to listen to anything the police were saying”), not because they were afraid of her holding a knife.

Thus, a smarter solution – backing away (or perhaps even exiting the room – police had no reason to be there since the request was for medical personnel) and awaiting medical professionals – was abandoned because the police wanted to enforce their authoritarian impulse to control.
137 Dave // Jun 28, 2010 at 3:21 PM

Going by the linked report. He didn’t make any mention of it. Unless you are saying he did, but didn’t put it into his report….
138 Johnny Law // Jun 28, 2010 at 3:31 PM

Right. They could back away and then when she stabbed herself with the knife folks would call the cops cowards for not doing something sooner. Cops can’t win with this group. Oh wait someone did suggest they throw a pillow over her head. I guess they could have done that instead.
139 Dave // Jun 28, 2010 at 3:34 PM

Johhny were you there in our heads? How do you know we would call the cops cowards? You are making an awful lot of assumptions.
140 Zach // Jun 28, 2010 at 4:00 PM

Come off it, “Johnny Law”.
You have got to know that in *ALL* 50 states of the US, the courts have established case law that has *clearly* stated that the cops are under absolutely no obligation to prevent crimes or to prevent anything.

The cops are overglorified meter maids, they’re *only* legal mandate is to show up after the fact, draw the chalk outlines, and pass out tickets to fine anyone they possibly can… the cops have become revenue collection agents, just like meter maids.

So, don’t get on your high horse and try to claim that the cops could get into trouble for not preventing crimes/harm, the case law knocks you off your faux superiority and back into the gutter where you belong.
141 Johnny Law // Jun 28, 2010 at 4:04 PM

@ Dave

“Johhny were you there in our heads? How do you know we would call the cops cowards? You are making an awful lot of assumptions.”

You must not read many of the posts on this site. You can make accurate assumptions based on prior experiences.
142 Roger // Jun 28, 2010 at 4:16 PM

I did not retire, I quit because of medical problems due to wounds from Vietnam ( two purples) and as I had just received my masters in Electronics. I could make fare more else where. With out working grave yard, Christmas, snow up to my ass and get to see people in a good light. But I must say that there times when I do miss it.
143 Dave // Jun 28, 2010 at 4:21 PM

@Johnny

“You can make accurate assumptions based on prior experiences.”

Well alright then…

Based upon my prior experiences working with the police, they are all bullies who abuse their power. Is that how this logic of yours work?
144 Dave // Jun 28, 2010 at 4:23 PM

Or better yet…

You must not read many news stories. You can make accurate assumptions based on prior experiences.
I like how this logic of yours works…
145 Dave // Jun 28, 2010 at 4:24 PM

I meant news stories about police abusing their powers.

Damn, can we get an edit button?
146 Pinandpuller // Jun 28, 2010 at 5:15 PM

Johnny Law doesn’t just want tolerance of his deviant lifestyle-he wants acceptance and praise.
147 Dodge Ball // Jun 28, 2010 at 5:51 PM

I did retire from it and I condemn their use of a taser in that situaton. Anyone who believes that it was justifiable, even without knowing all of the details, is defective. What those poor examples of law enforcement did paralled zapping someone in a wheelchair. Whoever made that call should be hammered and have the dogshit sued out of him.
148 Dodge Ball // Jun 28, 2010 at 5:52 PM

oops. situation and paralleled
149 Johnny Law // Jun 28, 2010 at 6:42 PM

Dave, Dave, Dave….

You assume the police didn’t try any tactics other than tasing the old lady.

You wrote,”for gods sake, take some time and talk to the women. Yes, you can have the taser ready in case she looks like she is going to use it on herself, but there was no reason to use it yet.

It seems like so many cops are just looking for a chance to use a taser,. It’s like a toy they are just dying to play with.”

Assuming the police were eager to jump in there and taser a 80+ year old woman without any attempts at trying to calm her down is silly and borderline stupid. However after reading all the posts here where cops were called cowards, lazy, evil, pigs, ect, ect, means it is a simple logical deduction that the cops will be vilified no matter what they do.
150 Johnny Law // Jun 28, 2010 at 6:50 PM

@Dodge Ball

“Anyone who believes that it was justifiable, even without knowing all of the details, is defective.”

This sentence tells me all I need to know about you. Who needs pesky things like all the details before they go off on a tear about something? Geez…let’s all just mouth off without actually knowing what’s going on.
151 Roger // Jun 28, 2010 at 7:50 PM

Please, do not beat up o Johnny Law. He does bring up good points and forces thought to counter them. This does make good discussions and this may be his intent. I just wish he would be a little more polite and not insult others.
152 Liberty // Jun 28, 2010 at 7:55 PM

I want to thank @Roger and @Dodge Ball for expressing their outrage and admitting they were cops. @Johnny Law creates a self fulfilling prophecy of hating all cops.

I always say that if cops would express outrage at the bad apples, it would reinforce the public trust in the police. Instead we have @Johnny Law fanning the flames.

It is too bad @Roger and @Dodge Ball are not cops anymore. They could bring some much needed calm intelligence to our police.
153 Johnny Law // Jun 28, 2010 at 7:59 PM

Bah, you already hate the police. It just pisses you off more that I am challenging your echo chamber here and pointing out some facts from the other side.
154 Dodge Ball // Jun 28, 2010 at 8:23 PM

Dave, what Johnny Law is saying with no credibility is that it was O.K. to taze her just because they didn’t have the skill or experience to effectively use other viable means to gain and maintain control. It would have been no problem to restrain her, particularly when there were several officers present. So, in an ignorant person’s perception of what proper procedure is, it’s acceptable to knock out an 80-plus year old person with health issues because she “won’t calm down” and might be a threat. Ooooooo, scary stuff. I say, (with credibility, Johnny) that they are unprofessional pussies.
155 Dodge Ball // Jun 28, 2010 at 8:44 PM

I’m just looking at the big picture here. It is either very right or very wrong. There is no medium. My point is that she was tazed, and regardless of the reason, it should not have happened. Period.

Throwing out sophomoric insults just reveals one’s character and witlessness.
156 Roger // Jun 28, 2010 at 8:58 PM

Don’t get me wrong, I always tried to be fair and even, to use commonsense and to arrest only those needed. I always left a subject there pride and used the least force necessary. But, you did not want to cross that line, I could, and can, get down and dirty.
157 Johnny Law // Jun 28, 2010 at 9:12 PM

@Dodge Ball

Yes Dodge Ball has captured my argument perfectly. If only he were there. He would have bravely risked being cut with a knife because, goshdarn it, he is a credible expert on edged weapons.
158 Roger // Jun 28, 2010 at 9:24 PM

And your right, this should not have happened. The officers were defiantly out of line. If I was there supervisor they would regret it.
159 oscar finch // Jun 28, 2010 at 9:29 PM

I doubt dodgeball was ever a cop, if he was he was a poor excuse for a cop.

I would like to know where and for how long he worked but I’m pretty sure he won’t tell us.
160 Schmoo // Jun 28, 2010 at 9:29 PM

One thing that bothers me about the police report is that although Mr. Fife was astute enough to follow the tased woman to the hospital to collect the ejected prongs as evidence, he did not have the brains to collect the FREAKING KNIFE the lady was wielding with enough presence to scare Mr. Fife to the point that he thought the only way to protect himself was to Tase her in the first place. It seems there is something missing from the official record, or the cop is lying. See as how Barney was very careful to make sure medical personnel said that “it’s very common for old people to incure cuts that RUN THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF THEIR FOREARM when just touched, since their skin is so thin,” I’m betting the cop has massaged his report to cast himself in the best possible light and his victim in the worst.

My grandmother was 96 years old when she died. I hugged her repeatedly, helped her with salves, helped her with sun lotion, scratched her back, and NOT ONCE did I SHRED HER SKIN. I wonder much that poor woman was manhandled to have the wounds noted on the police report.

And then apoligists wonder why we think (most) cops suck.
161 Roger // Jun 28, 2010 at 9:42 PM

Schmoo; Yes, he lied, that is obvious. But I have seen this injury before, but I do think it was excessive. The officer probably grabbed and jerked her arm sliding his hand down the length of it, which is not the way you handle old folk, he should have used more care. But then, if he had his head out off____ , this would not have happened, would it?
162 oscar finch // Jun 28, 2010 at 10:23 PM

Schmoo, first of all Carlos’ articles for the most part suck. They are filled with more uninformed opinions then fact.

If it happened the way Carlos thinks it happened then of course the police were wrong.

If it happened the way common sense says it happened and she was tasered to keep her from stabbing herself then the police were right.

Departnent policy is probably why they collected the probes. I don’t think they charged her with a crime so that is probably why they didn’t take the knife.

The fact that they didn’t charge her tells me they did what they did to protect her not themselves. Unlike the rest of you monday morning qbs I don’t expect the police to try to disarm anybody with a knife no matter how harmless they may seem unless its a last resort. Why should they put thenselves in harms way when they don’t have to.

I think a good piece of advice is not to form an opinion on anything you read here unless you do a little research and get the facts from a real news site. Ther is a reason this guy only has a blog.

That doesn’t go for dodgeball who has already made it known he doesn’t care about the facts.
163 Johnny Law // Jun 28, 2010 at 10:42 PM

Roger if she was waving a knife around and threatening to kill people, do you think it is possible she was struggling with the officer and that is why her skin tore? If the officer has a grip on her arm and she is trying to pull away, then anyone with any common sense would figure that was how the injury occurred.

How would you handle an old person that was physically struggling with you? How exactly would you use “more care”?
164 oscar finch // Jun 28, 2010 at 10:48 PM

Actually they did take the knife, like I said don’t rely on his blog for any facts.
165 Bentor Tazenda // Jun 28, 2010 at 11:03 PM

But what isn’t really being said, if she was threatening others with knife or some other device, that would be a criminal act, that’s illegal. But trying to kill oneself isn’t against the law, there are no laws against personal suicide, and as long as you aren’t causing harm to someone else or trying to take someone with you, you are “legally” free to try. Yes some jurisdictions may try to find a way to prosecute or punish for trying (and failing or getting caught) there isn’t a statute for it.
166 Johnny Law // Jun 28, 2010 at 11:24 PM

What the hell are you talking about? If someone is trying to kill themselves, then they are going to get taken to a mental health facility. Are you seriously saying that officers should just let the suicide attempt have at it?
167 Roger // Jun 28, 2010 at 11:34 PM

You do have a point, I am going on what was reported here, it could have been other wise. As how I would have handled, I do not know, was not there.
168 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 12:39 AM

So it’s a fact that there is no high probability of serious injury or death in tasering a bed-ridden 86 year old woman with health problems. It’s also a fact that there were several officers present combined with medical personnel, and she was still tasered. Enough facts, Oscar?

I have been on the field for half of my life and have earned the credibility to comment, so there is no armchair qbing here. What about you?

I thought so.
169 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 12:48 AM

In cases like this “soft restraints” are put to use. There was an absence of proper initiative.
170 Androgynus // Jun 29, 2010 at 1:52 AM

Looking at the elderly woman’s photo–instantaneously puts into stark context the police significance–and its practical value.

Something is intrinsically wrong or seriously out of species kilter for this type of “killer robot” like reasoning/reaction in adult humans acting as “peace officer” public employees . Particularly when perpetrated so often. Can’t just pin it to low IQ or inadequate training.

I seriously wonder, just how many of police/guard hirees have predisposition towards psychopathic reactive behavior??…
171 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 1:53 AM

I wore a star. I carried a wheel gun, had no can of mace, tasers weren’t in existence, there was no 911, and patrol officers didn’t wear ball caps with polo shirts. My less than lethal device was the Mag light.

I had no tolerance for other cops that had their heads up their asses or stepped over the line in their authority. There was also no tolerance for someone who put a lot of effort into violating statute. Depending on technology or a swarm of other cops to take care of business? Yeah, right.

Respect is earned, Oscar. So far, your insulting dumb ass has a balance of zero.
172 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 1:57 AM

Oh, and BTW, Mr. Finch. While you were comfy in your bed (crib?) Roger and I were either freezing or sweating in our body armor, protecting and serving you, fool.

You’re welcome.
173 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 2:04 AM

Liberty, it seems as if tradition in law enforcement has waned and has been overshadowed by many of those who forget what service is.
174 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 2:36 AM

The psychopathic behavior was en masse. This is very unsettling and brings to mind a predatory pack of hyenas.
175 Androgynus // Jun 29, 2010 at 4:09 AM

I heard an audio report on GCN–it described the woman’s oxygen hose connection as being repeatedly stepped upon. Pathological indifference worthy of mental ward case (imo)–not what’s expected from public employees charged with exercising critical judgment.

Restraint and “waiting things out” is also part of the job’s critical judgment demands.

There’s also something to be said for common sense improvised approaches–like having the strapping male cops put on protective gloves and utilizing a blanket or pillows to restrain with minimal harm (not too many individual elderly females that can “wup” a bunch of grappling male adults)
176 Johnny Law // Jun 29, 2010 at 8:35 AM

And Fitch and I are protecting you now. You are also welcome.

In addition to the dangers of the job, we now have to be second guessed by every asshole with an internet connection who thinks they could have done it better. This includes people who have no idea what they are talking about. Maybe you haven’t had the experience of having your actions edited and put on youtube as if you did something wrong that was actually clear cut justified.

I am sure you loved having the brass criticize you for something you had to do even though they weren’t there and have no idea what the situation was. Maybe you should stop acting like you were the perfect cop back in the day and try to actually remember what it was like. You and roger make it sound like you were both just like Andy Taylor in Mayberry.
177 Johnny Law // Jun 29, 2010 at 8:36 AM

Really? That is the exact same thing that comes to mind when I read many of these blog comments.
178 Dave // Jun 29, 2010 at 9:29 AM

Johnny,Johnny,Johnny….

You assume the police did try other tactics than tasing the old lady.
Looking at the report, they didn’t.

So, stop making basic assumptions yourself.

Assuming the police were not eager to jump in there and taser a 80+ year old woman without any attempts at trying to calm her down is silly and borderline stupid.

However after reading all the police apologist posts here where cops are always assumed to be correct and innocent of wrong doings , ect, ect, means it is a simple logical deduction that tazing victims will be vilified no matter what they do.

Fact is, I have seen plenty of police and ems personnel fly off the handle for no apparent reason. Get over it, it happens. There are good police and bad police…and the cops in this story, definitely fall into the bad police category.
It’s this kind of crap of always defending the police no matter what that makes most of the general public worried. If the police want to clear their name and earn back the general public trust, start taking these instances seriously.
179 Dave // Jun 29, 2010 at 9:35 AM

No, he doesn’t really bring any good points. All I have seen him do so far is present the other end of the spectrum of assumptions and try to coat it with the specter of subject matter expertise.

He is no better than those who automatically just yell “Kill the cops”. He is just on the other end of the spectrum with his faulty logic.
180 Johnny Law // Jun 29, 2010 at 10:01 AM

@Dave

You wrote,”You assume the police did try other tactics than tasing the old lady.
Looking at the report, they didn’t.”

Reading comprehension is obviously not your strong point is it? At this point I have to wonder if you even read the report. Sadly, I don’t think you did. Some interesting lines from the report:

“I tried talking to Varner and calm her down but nothing would work. Varner told me she was in control of her life and I could not do anything to stop her.”

“When Varner saw Officer Tinga and Officer Sandberg enter she took a more aggressive posture on the bed and raised the knife above her head and said “If you come any closer you’re getting the knife.”"

“At this time I along with other officers had exhausted attempts at verbally getting Varner to comply. I told Varner if she did not drop the knife she would force us to use out Tasers.”

It’s obvious from the report (if you had bothered to read it) that the police tried to reason with her but it was impossible due to her frame of mind. It’s a shame you weren’t there to work your magic on her and get the knife with no injury to yourself or the old lady.
181 Johnny Law // Jun 29, 2010 at 10:07 AM

I think johny law thinks that if I went up to a group of black and yelled ‘niggers’, and they tried to attack me, that it would be okay for me to shoot them dead for attacking me — as long as I tried to talk them down afterward.

He doesn’t seem to understand removing oneself from the situation. Which is clearly also evident by his posting pattern.
182 oscar finch // Jun 29, 2010 at 10:36 AM

You forgot to say you walked to work uphill both ways.

I would trade tasers and mace for a law abiding society but times have chabged, looking for chicken thieves is no longer a priority.
183 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 12:22 PM

“Perfect cop”? Please, there’s no such thing. It’s just that some are closer to it than others. There are more pussies in uniform that can get away with being one these days, and you’re probably one of them that would reach for a taser instead of applying what weak skills and intelligence you have. Ten officers vs. an 86-year old woman on oxygen and in bed. Can it be more professional than that, boy? If you are a cop, and I doubt it, your train of thought presents a liability to your agency as well as a possible threat to the safety of the public, troll.
184 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 12:26 PM

‘Like the taste of chicken, eh?
185 Scott Smith // Jun 29, 2010 at 12:29 PM

Well said Syd, well said.

Fuck the Police!
186 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 12:33 PM

“…….to test a man’s character, give him authority”. – Abraham Lincoln

I guess character is being revealed, Liberty.
187 oscar finch // Jun 29, 2010 at 12:38 PM

So claiming to be a back in the day makes you an expert on everything the police do today? Stop living in the past. The only injury she sustained is when they had to put their hands on her to get the knife. The taser didn’t hurt her at all so stop being such a puss. If the taser didn’t hurt this poor old bag of bones then they must be safe.
188 Dave // Jun 29, 2010 at 12:39 PM

Wow, 3 whole sentences is trying to calm someone down? Man, they should apply for a job as a psychologist. Are you kidding me? I’ve spent over an hour talking down patients before. It’s a part of the job. And if she is being antagonized by the police, then they need to step back and let the situation de-escalate. Why is that such a hard concept?

You still don’t get it.
By the way, insulting me does not help your position. All it does is show that you also have the authority issue plaguing most police. I have dared to question you, so the attacks start. Why am I not surprised.
189 oscar finch // Jun 29, 2010 at 12:56 PM

The bottom line is this. This old lady is alive because the police stopped her from stabbing herself. You might not like the way they saved her life but it worked. If the family don’t like it next time she nuts up they can deal with it themselves without calling 911, the police won’t mind not getting called back there.

This reminds me of the guy who sued the guy who saved him from choking but broke his ribs in the process. Some people are just out to make.a buck.
190 Johnny Law // Jun 29, 2010 at 1:05 PM

You know Dodge Ball, I bet you were one of those pencil pushers who got off the street as soon as possible and then spent the rest of their time on the job acting like they were shit hot street cops back in the day.

If you don’t have enough common sense to understand why an officer would rather not get within slashing distance of a knife when they have tools available to handle the situation, then you are hopelessly out of touch and it is a damn good think you are no longer a cop (if you ever were a real one). If you were ever a supervisor, I bet you were a real company man.

Please explain to me how a knife will no longer cut a person if it is being welded by an elderly person. Of course back in your day, cops loved getting cut with knives and it was all part of the job right? What a freaking joke.
191 Johnny Law // Jun 29, 2010 at 1:14 PM

@Dave

So first you say that the police didn’t mention in the report that they tried to talk her down. Then when I point it out, you claim that it wasn’t enough. Awesome. Let’s keep moving the bar every time you are proven wrong.

They said they tried. What do you want? A word for word transcript? You say you spent a hour talking a person down? Must be nice to have zero calls backing up while you did that. What rural area did you work in and when? In a modern urban area, the calls come in fast and you don’t have time to spend a hour on every uncooperative person out there, especially one with dementia that will never listen.

You are the one that doesn’t get it. The real world is complicated and messy. Just because something doesn’t look perfect doesn’t mean it is the wrong approach. I think we are both glad you retired.
192 Kyle // Jun 29, 2010 at 1:29 PM

*starts counting* 1…2…3…4…
193 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 2:44 PM

Boy, you’re making yourself to be more of a cretin with each post you make. Nobody is an expert on what cops do today. There are very important modules that are present today, just as much as they were a hundred years ago, poser. It’s too bad that little weenies like you don’t recognize them.

As a matter of fact, I am still involved in the training of entry level cops and CCW civilians in firearm proficiency, retention, and survival. I consult in home security and neighborhood watch programs.

“Poor old bag of bones”? You’re such a little punk.
194 Patrick // Jun 29, 2010 at 2:48 PM

Gene Roddenberry had it too, only his Klingons called it “the agonizer.”
Patrick recently posted..A Lot Of People Say “WTF”- But They Don’t Know What They’re Talking About THIS is “WTF”
195 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 3:02 PM

I know of many incidents where the primary weapon failed…….the officer’s brain. THAT is what took place in El Reno, OK.

Focusing on your feeble logic, why didn’t one of the TEN officers that charged in just double-tap her? It would have negated the risk of taser failure. Hell, she had a knife which presented the deadly force situation that you speak of, poser.
196 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 3:16 PM

They are in positions of trust. When this trust is violated, the sanctions should be harsh as a means to prevent others from following suit.

I believe that there was a violation of civil rights and conspiracy to violate those rights.
197 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 3:19 PM

Their ticket books were empty and the doughnut shop ran out of product.
198 oscar finch // Jun 29, 2010 at 3:32 PM

Your the one that said your not armchair qbing so either you were there or your an expert or your an armchair qb.

Your one post says it all when you said you don’t need all the facts. If that was your attitude when you were on patrol I’m sure you were a cop the community was proud to have.
199 Johnny Law // Jun 29, 2010 at 3:35 PM

@Dodge Ball

You have no clue about use of force or the danger of edged weapons but you call me a poser? You are obviously a has-been who is out of touch. You know what they say. Those who can, do. Those who can’t, teach. I feel sorry for your students.

We were talking about how the taser is NOT a substitute for a gun in a deadly force situation. Try to keep up. I’m not talking about this case where obviously a gun would be excessive. I was talking about someone’s earlier comment that “They should be used ONLY when deadly force would be other wise be used.”

This is wrong and contradicts every single police department training program that I know of. Of course you should know that since you are a hot shit retired cop who trains police and civilians right? Right?

Or do you think the taser should only be used as a substitute for guns? You may want to do some research before you answer since you obviously have no experience with the weapon system.
200 Johnny Law // Jun 29, 2010 at 3:36 PM

And you claim to be an ex-cop? Now the truth comes out.
201 oscar finch // Jun 29, 2010 at 3:48 PM

Anybody who says it is no problem restraining somebody who doesn’t want to be restrained is obviously not a cop and never was.
202 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 4:35 PM

It’s not a weapon system, boy.

The fact of the matter is that the officer in charge made a bad call by having one of his cronies slap the easy button. Attached to this are the brain-dead idiots that believe that it was fully justified and that there was no wrongdoing.

“Every single police department training program that I know of.” well, there’s proof that you are a poser or a piss poor example. Do you even have a clue about color of the law violations? If, and it’s a big if, you’re a cop, you require some remedial training and quite possibly a reprogramming on the mats with a PR24.
203 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 5:06 PM

There are also criminal courts that process cops that violate laws as well as one’s rights.
204 Pinandpuller // Jun 29, 2010 at 5:11 PM

The police report says that the woman told the policman she wanted to die-not that she wanted to kill herself-big difference. I had an O2 patient that told me she wanted to die every time I saw her.

Adults do have the right to refuse medical care or sign a DNR.

In Johnny Law’s world, however, adults don’t have the right to refuse police attention. Like samurai swords, once drawn they cannot go back to the station without drawing blood.

I think the primary blame lies with the dispatcher, turning in a check on meds into a suicide attempt.
205 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 5:30 PM

It would have been prudent to stand down, retreat, and wait for someone on a much higher pay scale to assess the situation make the call for the proper course of action. With that many officers present, there must not have been much going on elsewhere that would have demanded their attention. It’s El Reno, OK for pete’s sake.

Common sense was not present. Knuckle-dragging clowns is what comes to mind.
206 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 5:46 PM

I agree. Someone’s world is not spinning on its axis correctly. A little accurate information can go a long way.
207 oscar finch // Jun 29, 2010 at 5:53 PM

Do they even have ten ofcs working at one time. Sounds a bit exaggerated.
208 Rance // Jun 29, 2010 at 6:05 PM

Well said Pin.
209 Johnny Law // Jun 29, 2010 at 6:10 PM

Hahaha That is your idea of what should have happened? Call for someone with more rank? Is that how you handle a crisis situation.

You really are a dinosaur. The current thought in modern policing is to empower your officers to make decisions. You have confirmed my opinion of you as a desk jockey/CYA type of guy. The job is better off without you.
210 Roger // Jun 29, 2010 at 6:36 PM

Body armer? You had body armer? I never did.
211 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 8:42 PM

Second chance level II. I didn’t insert the trauma plate, though.
212 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 9:12 PM

You are grossly mistaken and obviously removed from any form of crisis management skills, let alone “modern policing”. Let me educate your dumb ass, boy. First, that scenario parallels a hostage situation. Though not as critical and involves only one person, it is common practice, and in some agencies, mandatory, to contact the division commander or adminstrative officer on call if after hours. Secondly you are a complete fool and completely ignorant to law enforcement if you believe (a belief is all it is) that a patrolman is empowered to make such decisions in an incident like that. There was no evidence of imminent danger or an immediate threat until the bozos involved themselves. So cowboying is in your method of operation, huh? Why not just kill them all and let God sort them out, dickwad. It’s cerebrally deficient idiots like you that make municipalities write huge checks after a judge renders his decision.

The world is better off without you.
213 Pinandpuller // Jun 29, 2010 at 9:47 PM

@ oscar finch re “he was a poor excuse for a cop”. So he was in the 90th percentile?
214 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 10:01 PM

Great response, Pin.
215 Pinandpuller // Jun 29, 2010 at 10:15 PM

@johnny law. I will grant you that cops have a localized deterrent effect +1. If you take credit for cops protecting us you should take blame for cops beating the shit out of innocent people etc. As far as protection goes though-I got hit by a drunk driver that led police on a 45 mile chase involving troopers, sheriffs deputies and city cops and spike strips starting on the prairie north of Casper, WY. In their defense they were very cordial when they took my statement after my CAT scan
216 Ariel // Jun 29, 2010 at 10:16 PM

Unfortunately, there was no reply link to JLs comment so I have to use mine.

No, JL, I don’t expect cops to go up against a knife without using force. That’s patently silly, too many points on the human body can lead to either instantaneous death or bleed out in minutes or less. I did leave my post ambiguous enough to hit your hot button, so thanks for indulging me. As for naive on the taser, I was around when it was first introduced to the public and it was sold as an alternative when a gun may be too much force, but other means too little, the latter endangering the officer. It was not sold as a “compliance tool”, which is how it is too often used. Give a control-freak a hammer, and everything becomes a nail.

The real issue at hand is using the taser on a frail (oxygen anyone? No it won’t explode, that’s not the point), possibly overdosed on medication (the reason for the 911 call), 86 year-old bedridden woman. They took a real chance in killing her with that taser, especially given that the prongs were likely to hit across the chest (Taser International finally admits that that target zone is dangerous). “Had to destroy the village in order to save it” type of military mentality.

She may have been suicidal, she may have threatened herself and them with a knife, but she couldn’t reach the officers. They were in no danger. They and her relative should have attempted to defuse the situation, and waited for the EMT to arrive. Talk her down instead of light her up. Of course, that would take skill, patience, humanity, decency, and, oh no, time. Maybe even some politeness (I know how much you hate that).

I think it’s rather naive of you to think officers don’t abuse the tool. If the officers were following procedure, then the sacred procedure needs to be changed.
217 Ariel // Jun 29, 2010 at 10:39 PM

Nor does it mean that they did have probable cause. Look at how many officers are going down for lying on their reports when an unambiguous, unedited video shows up and proves they lied; the truly stupid ones are hanged by their own dash cams. I hate liars, especially those that lie to keep out of trouble while putting innocents in trouble. No moral courage, just cowardice. But then again, after all, without the video, LEOs don’t lie. Which is why some PDs in the US have tried to make it illegal to videotape them.

Weren’t you the naive one that said you’d go to the LEO’s report to get the facts? Facts are undeniable, of course.
218 Ariel // Jun 29, 2010 at 10:49 PM

And if the taser had killed her (you know, frail, possible overdose, 86 year-old bedridden woman with the target zone likely the chest), you’d be praising them? You’re arguing a false dichotomy, as shown elsewhere here in the many lucid comments. I’m sure you’ll be able, if you reread, to determine which ones I’m referring to and which ones I’m not. No sarcasm intended.
219 Ariel // Jun 29, 2010 at 11:24 PM

No, Taser International does over and over again, not Amnesty International. Perception issue on your part. However, the Canadian government is now recognizing that the taser is not non-lethal in every case. And that lazy Police
abuse its use. I know, I know, every LEO is as hard working as the best of us, every LEO is as honest as the day is long, every LEO is as courageous as a lion and as innocent as a baby in swaddling.

Check out http://excited-delirium.blogspot.com/2010/06/deception.html regarding arguments on some of the representations of TI. If they do represent the mA output as an average rather than RMS, they are not a company I’d buy stock in. Honesty issues.

Excited delirium is still not a recognized concept. It’s junk science. The problem is that a taser does not necessarily leave direct evidence that it caused death. The heart simply stops from electrical interruption. Muscle lock as it were.

Before you make the leap, I’m not against the taser, I’m against its abuse.
220 Ariel // Jun 29, 2010 at 11:34 PM

JL,
It isn’t the voltage, it’s the amperage. Voltage doesn’t kill. Please do some reading, please.

And your overall physical condition, your size, and what you hit on the way down, as you allude. Thank you for admitting its the bad judgment, the reckless abandon with which it is used, the abuse of the tool that is the real problem.
221 Ariel // Jun 29, 2010 at 11:40 PM

Oscar Finch,
Thanks for that moment of high humanity. So how’s church these days?

That you tout that she didn’t die, or suffer some inury from muscle lock (familiar with osteoporosis are we?) from the tasing is quite humorous, given that that the 911 call was because she might have overdosed. Think man, think, you’ll see the humor.
222 Dodge Ball // Jun 29, 2010 at 11:45 PM

Geez, being protected by a couple of dickwad wannabes is really reassuring. Thank you, but I’m not as old as you think I am. I can still throw down better than most, taking care of myself and my neighbors. I still bench 300 and leg 500. Oh, and did I forget to mention that I am a self-defense instructor, have a degree in accounting, and one in criminal justice? I volunteer my services and time to the local constabulary on a regular basis. I can also carry my 1911 in all 50 states without a CCW and can most likely smoke your ass in an IDPA or IPSC shoot. I’m even better at throwing a 168 gr. BTHP downrange.

God, how I pity booger-eating morons like you.
Stay in the kiddie pool, rookie.
223 hillbillyfunk // Jun 30, 2010 at 12:02 AM

responding to Johnny Law is like wrestling with a pig
224 Ariel // Jun 30, 2010 at 12:05 AM

Selective reading and hypersensitivity? You make one blanket insulting statement but are upset by other ones? You know anti-cop is an epithet of abuse as much as these comments you listed.

Procedures and LEOs are not above criticism, it isn’t anti-cop to do so. If you think you are, or that only Police should police Police, you are so blindingly naive as to need an awakening. It doesn’t work well in other professions either.

I’ve read cop blogs where you could say they’re anti-anyone-not-cop both in the post and the comments. Comment sections are also for venting, though I don’t like the language any more than you do. I never call a cop a pig.

Some LEOs deserve the appellation of thug and scum like the ones that commit sex crimes (about 1.75 times the general population) by intimidation of badge or promise of favor, over and over until the benefit of the doubt wear’s off. As one LEO on Officer.com wrote “it’s not a Brotherhood, it’s a job. If you think otherwise, grow up or get out.” A good cop.
225 Ariel // Jun 30, 2010 at 12:12 AM

The bad ones or the good ones? Police are necessary. Their Unions, however, are not. Corrupt as any other union that gains too much power.
226 Johnny Law // Jun 30, 2010 at 12:13 AM

@dodge ball

I can’t believe you just posted how much you can bench and how well you think you can shoot. Are you going to post a picture of your penis to show us how large it is? Oh man you are classic. Why do you remind me of the guy from the movie Observe and Report?
227 Ariel // Jun 30, 2010 at 12:21 AM

JL,
And you don’t know that they did either…
Blindly pro-cop is as stupid as blindly anti-cop.
228 Ariel // Jun 30, 2010 at 1:00 AM

JL,
Let’s see, hours after tasing an 86 year-old bed-ridden woman on oxygen who may have overdosed, all factors that make tasing possibly lethal, an Officer writes a report that shows they did everything possible. No “oh shit how is this going to play” moment, no little exaggeration to make sure of CYA?

Naive: 1 : marked by unaffected simplicity ; 2 a : deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgment.

It’s the writer’s version, it may be true or it may not. It’s not the final truth: if every police report were a Federal judge wouldn’t say lying is a systemic problem (OK, it was the NYPD, likely the water…) and Union’s wouldn’t have to fight to get LEOs back on the job who were caught falsifying police reports (Seattle). And those five cops that conspired to falsify an accident report (damn dash cam caught all the liars in the Department), Saints all of them? Should I call the Pope?

Of course, if the relative said that’s not what happened, he’d be a liar. After all, he’s not a cop and it isn’t in the report.

PS: I hope none of this this went over your head. I know you have the intelligence, but I don’t know if you have the wisdom.
229 Ariel // Jun 30, 2010 at 1:26 AM

JL,
As we’ve seen in the past with you, there are always more details needed, in a one-sided sort of way. Never enough, the video never shows it all, it’s always edited.

Oh, wait, there’s the police report. Case settled in a few terse sentences.

I believe Dodge Ball was saying it was bad on it’s face, like the wheelchair woman, so further details are unnecessary. It’s kind of a decency thing, like please, thank you, you’re welcome, don’t tase or beat on unarmed paraplegics and quadriplegics, or deaf people who are trying to tell you they are deaf (well, they were slow on following spoken orders), and 86 year-old bed-ridden deranged women. But then you’re not a concierge…

And, again, I don’t expect any cop to go up against a knife, second best weapon to the gun, especially the long ones. I don’t like going up against a false dichotomy either. Nasty things really.
230 Ariel // Jun 30, 2010 at 1:58 AM

I agree with Roger. Not to read JLs mind, but I think criticism of LEOs is jarring to him, too unfounded in his perception. I accept his insulting manner as an artifact from someone who expects not to be questioned, as well as a carryover from some of the truly insulting comments made here about all Police. I’d go on the defensive too.

However, I feel no need to put in the bootlicking “not all cops, or even many” obligatory statement to assuage their tender feelings (so much like frat boys, sheesh). I assume they are people: good, mediocre, and bad. I do not equate physical courage with moral courage, either, especially when the odds are stacked in your favor on the former. He seems to at times, but I may be mistaken.

Moving from Military service to LEO is moving from one insularity to another, as well as profoundly skewing your perception of people in general. Dave at Injustice Everywhere has bent over backwards to try to keep accurate stats on police misconduct; in terms of criminality they are not any different than the general populace (OK they tend to commit sex crimes a bit more, likely age and ego) which means most of them are good, decent people, some of whom make mistakes, and real trash that deserve prison time but too often get a discount or pass because of the “they are all heroes” mentality.

His seeming belief that police reports are holy writ isn’t even shared by all LEOs (I spend too much time at Officer.com and Policeone.com evidently.)
231 Ariel // Jun 30, 2010 at 2:29 AM

@JL,
“second guessed by every asshole with an internet connection who thinks they could have done it better”

And that is called democracy with free speech, my friend.

“Maybe you haven’t had the experience of having your actions edited and put on youtube as if you did something wrong that was actually clear cut justified.”
Although I do sympathize, I had a front page newspaper quote that was edited to mean the opposite of what I said in entirety but still…

So you admit it, the police edit the dash cam videos? Just poorly? But all citizen videos are edited, none truly show a LEO stepping over the line, ever? May I assume a virgin birth, each and everyone?

Really, your pissing contest with Dodge Ball is humorous. All Brothers are of one mind, walking lockstep into the future? Remember the El Monte head kick? Just FYI, it was the LAPD and LACSO that loudly criticized it. Maybe you should spend more time at Officer.com and Policeone.com.
232 Ariel // Jun 30, 2010 at 2:45 AM

@OF (thought I’d adopt that for awhile),
Unless PDs are falsifying stats, crime has been trending downwards since the Clinton Admin. So which is it?

The times haven’t changed. There was never a law-abiding society, not in the way you mean it. Maybe a polite society, but that seems to be eschewed by too many, stupidly.

It also becomes harder as more and more behavior is made criminal. People that forgot their children were still in the car in summer, or forgot their kids were in or near the pool when they got a phone call, in Arizona were pitied, now they’re felons. They weren’t in the stats in 1965.
233 Johnny Law // Jun 30, 2010 at 3:40 AM

@Ariel

Wow you really spent some time posting tonight didn’t you? I’m not going to answer all your comments because that would take way too long. However I would like to comment that I find it interesting you always say that you don’t believe the police account but you seem to have no problem believing the complainant in these cases. You seem to be blind to the fact that these folks are suing the city trying to get money. I’ve had people complain and try to sue me and other coworkers. In all these cases, the complainants exaggerated the facts and ofter outright lied about things to bolster their case. Why don’t you consider this when you look at these things? I think you have a bias towards the police that clouds your judgement more than you know.

I have acknowledged multiple times here and on my blog when I think a police officer screwed up. The difference is I know we don’t live in a perfect world and sometimes police have to make quick decisions that aren’t always pretty. I’ve been in those situations and I know what it is like. Do police make mistakes? Sure they do. However the vast majority of the time they are simply doing the best they can under immense stress. I understand that while it would be great if we could verbal judo everyone into compliance, that isn’t how the world works. I doubt many of the folks on this site will ever understand that.

That’s obvious from some of the naive responses on to my question on the G20 posting. Folks say things like “Not rocket science bud…arrest those who destroy shit. Leave those alone who are peacefully protesting. ” Well no shit. As if it is that easy when the police have to consider deployment of forces and how to prevent riots from breaking out in the first place.

These types of simplistic answers are great in the classroom but ignorant of real life. They ignore the fact that decisions have to be made quickly and often in a fluid situation. Dodge Ball makes the cowards comment of how the officers in the tasing incident should have called for someone with more rank. You can have all the backup in the world and all the gold on the collar but sooner or later someone has to take action.

It becomes clear that the folks here expect the police to have magic powers to do everything perfectly and without any injury or risk of injury to the other party. I truly wish I could watch you handle these incidents that you are so quick to condemn to see how you would handle them. I think it would be very interesting.

I remember reading about one town where the media was very harsh towards the police due to several recent officer involved shootings. They kept saying nonsense about how the officers should be shooting knives or guns out of the suspects hands. The department put these reporters on shooting simulators and did force on force training with paintball guns. The reporters all screwed up every scenario and realized that things aren’t quick so cut and dry as they thought. The ignorant became the informed and it caused a big change in their attitude. I think the folks on this site are in bad need of such an experience.

Everyone that is except dodge ball. After all, he has a degree in accounting and can bench 300lbs!
234 oscar finch // Jun 30, 2010 at 9:52 AM

Ariel, if it means that much to you then you should start a petition to legalize leaving your kids in the car in the middle of summer. Imagine holding parents responsible for their childrens safety, what a crazy world we live in. I mean why should parents have to worry about a silly thing like their kids when their phone rings. Let’s make it a law that as long as your on the phone you don’t have to take care of your kids.
235 Dodge Ball // Jun 30, 2010 at 10:35 AM

It’s the people that change, Ariel. This includes those who adopt or modify laws and those who enforce those laws.

As far as more behavior being made criminal goes, it should apply to cops that, like in this case, react like jack-booted, goose-stepping, brown shirted cretins.

Incidents like this magnify the distrust and negative view focused on law enforcement. This makes the job even more difficult than it already is. Cops are in positions of trust. If any bonafied violation of this trust occurs, there should be no quarter.

It’s a pity how a welfare check and medical assistance call turned into a tasering and cuffing-stuffing.

According to the media, there were ten cops there. Was that the whole department? I think that it can only be an inaccurate report.

BTW, OF should be FO.
236 Rance // Jun 30, 2010 at 6:48 PM

This incident wasn’t the first time El Reno PD has been hasty to use a taser on someone. Back in 2008, they tased a 53yo man that was in severe diabetic shock. Classy.

http://cbs4denver.com/watercooler/cops.tase.diabetic.2.884588.html
237 oscar finch // Jun 30, 2010 at 7:46 PM

First the obvious. Until they get him under control they don’t know what’s wrong with him.

Even if they know what’s wrong with him they still have to get him under control to treat him. Maybe you would prefer they talked to him until he slipped into a coma.

Don’t they have a right to dedend themselves even if they know what is wrong with him.

I didn’t see anything about a lawsuit so I guess that guy was thankful the police saved his life.

You either posted this to ruffle feathers or you just don’t have a clue.

Stop acting like a cop stole your girlfriend it iis pretty pathetic. Or maybe somebody in your fasmily got locked up now you hate cops, pretty typical.

Enough cops do stupid things that you can come on here and cry about, you don’t have to cry about the ones who do nothing wrong, unless you consider saving this mans life something wrong.
238 Pinandpuller // Jul 1, 2010 at 4:13 AM

I think the officer who stepped on the oxygen hose should be treated like one who uses an illegal choke-hold.

Here’s an interesting post I ran across tonight: http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2010/06/maywood-rip-when-police-kill-city.html
239 Dodge Ball // Jul 1, 2010 at 10:12 AM

This allegation adds another dimension to the incident. Other than a civil action, the possibility of a criminal charges are very strong. I’m willing to bet that the feds have already been contacted.

If it can be proven that he intentionally stepped on the tube to deprive her of oxygen, the piece of shit should have his nostrils and mouth duct taped. He should be tased at the same time, of course.
240 Rance // Jul 1, 2010 at 1:56 PM

“First the obvious. Until they get him under control they don’t know what’s wrong with him.”

You apparently don’t know any of the obvious signs of diabetic shock. I’ve worked around enough diabetics that it is very easy to tell. With his blood sugar level being only 11, it would have been very apparent despite his combativeness (which is also a symptom). His skin would have been reddish and cold to the touch, and his breath would have a sweet, almost chemical-like smell to it. These are only a few of the obvious signs that the video failed to mention. If the cop who tased him had been able to recognize the signs, as required by state law in OK., he would have called EMS immediately. It matters not that his medical alert necklace was hidden.

The rest of your post is absolute bullshit, as usual.
241 Ariel // Jul 2, 2010 at 3:04 AM

@OF
I had really consider not replying to your cretinous comment, given that it wasn’t even tangential to my point, addressing nothing in my comment, but cretins need to be addressed.

You’re not “holding parents responsible” you’re extracting vengeance to satisfy you’re outrage, as well as satisfying your authoritarian limbic brain (yeah, an outmoded concept but still apropos) .

1. Prosecution has no deterence effect. Nada. Almost all of these events are from a lapse, either judgment or memory. They’re singular moments (thus incarceration is meaningless also) because parents aren’t thinking felony when taking care of their kids.
2. There’s is no punishment that you can extract that will match what the parent already suffers and will for the rest of his life (using “his” in the old-fashioned way). Guilt, shame, hopes, dreams, you know, the stuff you don’t have. They won’t do it again, they may not survive it at all. That should bring a smile to your face.
3. However, what you are making sure of is that you will destroy the family even further, all of them. You’ll destroy them financially and emotionally. You’ll kill the family. Be proud, my friend, you have that “pound of flesh”. Read “The Merchant of Venice”.
4. The authoritarian mind always goes to punishment: the scourge; the lash; or incarceration, the length sometimes verging on insane. Incarceration costs, but you’re happy because you have your “pound of flesh”, not only all the money for the process but removing an otherwise productive citizen from society. Ever considered forced Community Service, educating parents so they won’t forget? Nah. What has worked for pool drownings and left-in-the-car in Arizona is a widespread education campaign at the start of summer. Deaths have been flat for years. Think real hard and you may understand what that means statistically (Hint: the metro Phoenix area has tripled in the last decade or so, figured you needed help.)

One of the really neat things about having an authoritarian mind is you can function anywhere. You’d be a good citizen in Stalin’s Russia, Tojo’s Japan, Pinochet’s Chile, Bull
Connor’s Jim Crow South, or even in a small Roman district many years ago. You have no compassion, no empathy, you don’t question laws, no understanding of Thoreau’s “letter vs. spirit”, and there’s always enough punishment to satisfy you. Of course, you’d wet your pants and cry like a baby when you find the Law turned on you, after all it’s only for the others. Enjoy reaping what you sow.

Two last things for you whom Bugs Bunny knew so well:

One: yes, I know a family who has gone through this. The picture of the tricycle by the pool is famous here, and you have no effing clue of their pain. Not that you could.

Second: I actually score in the authoritarian range when I’ve had to take psychological tests, but I try to fight my baser instincts.
242 Ariel // Jul 2, 2010 at 3:20 AM

Dodge Ball,

This is one of the most pertinent quotes on this blog “Incidents like this magnify the distrust and negative view focused on law enforcement. This makes the job even more difficult than it already is. Cops are in positions of trust. If any bonafied violation of this trust occurs, there should be no quarter.”

Too many LEOs believe that they have a right to the job, they have a Brotherhood above all else, I’ve got your back and I’ll back your lie. Even 5% is too many (that’s about 40,000 cops for the arithmetically challenged).
243 Rail Car Fan // Jul 3, 2010 at 6:39 PM

Johnny Law..

Your comments of Jun 29, 2010 @ 8:36 AM is exactly the kind I would expect coming from you. Actually, let me rephrase that.

Most of your comments (if not all), are the kind that I would expect you to say. It’s quite obvious you feel that your brothers in blue can do NO wrong.. no matter what the situation is.

I could go on as to what type of a LEO you are (if at all), but everyone here already knows because of your “be damned with the public” attitude!

Rail Car Fan
244 Rail Car Fan // Jul 3, 2010 at 7:03 PM

Johnny Law..

With your attitude toward the public.. along with the comments you’ve given in the past, I can agree with your last sentence, ie:

“The job is better off without you!”

So why don’t you take your own advice, after all you said it..

“The job of being a LEO would be better off without YOU!!”

Rail Car Fan
245 Rail Car Fan // Jul 3, 2010 at 7:28 PM

Actually Johnny Law..

You’re the one who hasn’t changed much.

As it’s been pointed out on this web site time and time and time again.. Cops are still abusing their authority, still going to extremes (as in what happened above), still using the old “Rambo Sledge Hammer Technique” to crack and open a egg instead of using the more effective common sense way.

..And you wonder why most of the people who reply to your posts do so the way that they do.

Of course, considering your from the school of “my Brothers in Blue can do NO wrong”..

Rail Car Fan
246 Rail Car Fan // Jul 3, 2010 at 7:46 PM

Here we go again with Johnny Law’s.. “my Brothers in Blue can do NO wrong”!

“Folks aren’t getting tased for speeding moron. They are getting tased for resisting arrest or threatening an officer.”

We’ve already seen instances on this web site where the public has been harassed, tased, arrested.. and even shot to death by overzealous Cops who (once they get their shield), let their so called power go to their head.

Once again Johnny Law.. your above comments only show your true colors.

Rail Car Fan
247 Palin Retard // Jul 3, 2010 at 10:44 PM

“Don’t tase me, bro!”
248 Rail Car Fan // Jul 6, 2010 at 10:48 AM

I read the link on “Kol. Klink’s” post and immediately after finishing it I envisioned “Johnny Law” was the “Rambo” Cop written about in each and every one of the incidents.

I wonder why? (wink)

Rail Car Fan
249 Rail Car Fan // Jul 6, 2010 at 12:11 PM

Johnny Law said..

“I doubt this number. Just because a taser was used at some point does not make it the cause of death.”

I am now going to prove you 100% wrong.. and if you use ANY type of common sense in trying to understand my explanation you’ll agree too.

Quite often when someone dies after having a Taser used on them the Coroner’s Office often gives the reason for the death as being: a bad heart, drugs in the system, alcohol being used, etc., etc. and not the use of the Taser.

To disprove this erroneous theory, all one has to do is ask the following: “If the Taser had NOT been used, would the person still have been ALIVE 10, 20, 30 seconds later? A minute, 5 minutes, or 10 minutes later?

Of course we all know what the answer is. YES!.. they still would have been alive at that point in time if the Taser had NOT been used.

Of course “Johnny Law” is going to argue just the opposite by saying something to the effect of: “well the drunk could have stumbled off 10 seconds later and tripped, falling down and hitting his head.”

So I will say it again. In EVERY single instance where a person died after having been Tasered, it was the act of being Tasered that caused the death!.. no matter what the other underlying circumstances were.

Rail Car Fan
250 Rail Car Fan // Jul 6, 2010 at 12:30 PM

Roger said in part..

“..medical problems due to wounds from Vietnam ( two purples)..”

From one Vn vet to another..

“Welcome Home Brother.. Welcome Home!”

Rail Car Fan

37th 1st (Vietnam Vet .. and PROUD of it!)
251 Rail Car Fan // Jul 6, 2010 at 12:38 PM

Roger..

The problem with “Johnny Law”, is he uses the old saying of..

“When you have NO facts to back up your argument, start insulting and calling your opponent names instead!”

I guess it’s suppose to work every time for “Johnny”.. NOT!

Rail Car Fan
252 Rail Car Fan // Jul 6, 2010 at 1:10 PM

Johnny Law said..

“And Fitch and I are protecting you now.”

That sentence in and by itself just shows us how much “Johnny Law” really knows.. and the attitude he has as to being the God given savior of man kind.

I’m not going to list all the court decisions here (to and including the US Supreme Court one), but in each and every case it was decided by the various courts that..

“Police agencies are NOT responsible for the SAFETY and PROTECTION of the individual citizen.. but in fact, are only responsible for upholding the law of the General populace!”

You really do think highly of yourself.. don’t you “Johnny Law”!?

Rail Car Fan
253 Rail Car Fan // Jul 6, 2010 at 1:39 PM

Os Car said..

“This old lady is alive because the police stopped her from stabbing herself.”

No “Os Car”.. you’re only assuming that. We really don’t know what the final situation would have been if the “PO lice” had backed off and hadn’t escalated the situation.

But once again, YOU (like a lot of “PO lice” who jump to a erroneous course of action before thinking about the safer alternatives), just go on and on as to this was the ONLY course of action to take.

Rail Car Fan

Rail Car Fan
254 Rail Car Fan // Jul 6, 2010 at 1:58 PM

Pinandpuller..

Read the posted link.. and wouldn’t be surprised one bit if “Johnny Law” backed the actions of those city Cops one bit.

Yep.. wouldn’t surprise me at all!

Rail Car Fan
255 Doc // Jul 6, 2010 at 6:22 PM

Too bad she didn’t have some pepper spray.

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