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	<title>Comments on: Canadian bouncers just as thuggish as some American bouncers</title>
	<atom:link href="http://carlosmiller.com/2009/12/07/canadian-bouncers-just-as-thuggish-as-some-american-bouncers/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://carlosmiller.com/2009/12/07/canadian-bouncers-just-as-thuggish-as-some-american-bouncers/</link>
	<description>It's a First Amendment Right</description>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://carlosmiller.com/2009/12/07/canadian-bouncers-just-as-thuggish-as-some-american-bouncers/#comment-17778</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 21:51:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosmiller.com/?p=9011#comment-17778</guid>
		<description>Rob,

Would any nonviolent provocation justify an assault? Of course not. The bouncers were in the wrong, no matter how big of douche bags the photographer and his mates were.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rob,</p>
<p>Would any nonviolent provocation justify an assault? Of course not. The bouncers were in the wrong, no matter how big of douche bags the photographer and his mates were.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob Logan</title>
		<link>http://carlosmiller.com/2009/12/07/canadian-bouncers-just-as-thuggish-as-some-american-bouncers/#comment-17777</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Logan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Dec 2009 21:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosmiller.com/?p=9011#comment-17777</guid>
		<description>If you look into the Halifax incident, you will find that there is alot more to the story than is presented here. I don&#039;t see any mention of the other news stories showing evidence that the &#039;victims&#039; set out to provoke the doorman to get pictures that potrayed doorstaff in a negative light. Please look into CTV&#039;s coverage the following day before thinking you have the full story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you look into the Halifax incident, you will find that there is alot more to the story than is presented here. I don&#8217;t see any mention of the other news stories showing evidence that the &#8216;victims&#8217; set out to provoke the doorman to get pictures that potrayed doorstaff in a negative light. Please look into CTV&#8217;s coverage the following day before thinking you have the full story.</p>
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		<title>By: pod</title>
		<link>http://carlosmiller.com/2009/12/07/canadian-bouncers-just-as-thuggish-as-some-american-bouncers/#comment-17711</link>
		<dc:creator>pod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 05:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosmiller.com/?p=9011#comment-17711</guid>
		<description>Carlos, 

As you know, I&#039;m in this element a few days a week and then some. I just got off of a three-month tour with one of the major performers of the electronic music world, which included stops in the US, Canada, and Mexico. 

Now, by and large, most of the security people I encountered were professional people just doing their jobs. Force of words did the job 99 percent of the time, even in instances where more force may have been justified, i.e. the troublemaker was obviously on way too many drugs for their own good, and a good slap on the head might be beneficial at that point. 

However, up in Vancouver, I was actually surprised at the speed and ferociousness of a takedown at one of our shows. A patron was becoming quite unruly over being caught with an invalid ticket of some sort, and this seeming flying-wedge of security did the NFL proud and took this guy to the floor. Now, he was using physical action on the ticketing staff (bashing the glass partitions, etc), so some sort of restraint was warranted, but wow, it was very &quot;un-Canadian&quot;. We expect our neighbors to the north (especially Vancouver-ites...BC Bud and all!) to be laid back, but not in this case. Viciousness doesn&#039;t stop at the border. 

In the case I saw, did the guy deserve it? Maybe. He was pretty nasty to the old ladies in the booth, and I couldn&#039;t help but think &quot;What if that was my grandmother?&quot; 

Bouncing is typically a case-by-case basis sort of job. Most guys are trained to be proactive verbally, and reactive physically. They&#039;re not allowed to escalate to physical force unless the other guy started it, and in that case, numerical superiority is supposed to take over, and the offending patron is to be extracted from the venue and either banished or handed over to law enforcement. Punitive retribution is not allowed.

Does it happen? Sure, they&#039;re human too. They get hit, the want to hit back and and hit back some more. I won&#039;t lie when I say I&#039;d do it too. Someone hits me, I&#039;m not exactly the best citizen and I will go a little crazy. I think most of us will.  

Some jurisdictions try to prevent rogue incidents like this with certifications and whatnot. I know California requires licenses pretty much for all club and event security. Florida doesn&#039;t, however most Miami venues conduct background checks and require their security to have a D License. However, nothing on the books right now can prevent you from hiring your unlicensed friends to work security if you&#039;re a Miami club operator. You could own a venue and I could be inside cracking skulls on your behalf in five minutes, no license needed. 

The UK takes it a step further and has a government agency, the Security Industry Authority, which oversees all security personnel in the country. You have to get licensed (licenced!) and re-certified at regular intervals, whether you&#039;re a grunt standing on the box, a floor supervisor, muscle at the door, or a VIP &quot;host&quot;. It&#039;s not perfect, but it was in response to incidents like the above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Carlos, </p>
<p>As you know, I&#8217;m in this element a few days a week and then some. I just got off of a three-month tour with one of the major performers of the electronic music world, which included stops in the US, Canada, and Mexico. </p>
<p>Now, by and large, most of the security people I encountered were professional people just doing their jobs. Force of words did the job 99 percent of the time, even in instances where more force may have been justified, i.e. the troublemaker was obviously on way too many drugs for their own good, and a good slap on the head might be beneficial at that point. </p>
<p>However, up in Vancouver, I was actually surprised at the speed and ferociousness of a takedown at one of our shows. A patron was becoming quite unruly over being caught with an invalid ticket of some sort, and this seeming flying-wedge of security did the NFL proud and took this guy to the floor. Now, he was using physical action on the ticketing staff (bashing the glass partitions, etc), so some sort of restraint was warranted, but wow, it was very &#8220;un-Canadian&#8221;. We expect our neighbors to the north (especially Vancouver-ites&#8230;BC Bud and all!) to be laid back, but not in this case. Viciousness doesn&#8217;t stop at the border. </p>
<p>In the case I saw, did the guy deserve it? Maybe. He was pretty nasty to the old ladies in the booth, and I couldn&#8217;t help but think &#8220;What if that was my grandmother?&#8221; </p>
<p>Bouncing is typically a case-by-case basis sort of job. Most guys are trained to be proactive verbally, and reactive physically. They&#8217;re not allowed to escalate to physical force unless the other guy started it, and in that case, numerical superiority is supposed to take over, and the offending patron is to be extracted from the venue and either banished or handed over to law enforcement. Punitive retribution is not allowed.</p>
<p>Does it happen? Sure, they&#8217;re human too. They get hit, the want to hit back and and hit back some more. I won&#8217;t lie when I say I&#8217;d do it too. Someone hits me, I&#8217;m not exactly the best citizen and I will go a little crazy. I think most of us will.  </p>
<p>Some jurisdictions try to prevent rogue incidents like this with certifications and whatnot. I know California requires licenses pretty much for all club and event security. Florida doesn&#8217;t, however most Miami venues conduct background checks and require their security to have a D License. However, nothing on the books right now can prevent you from hiring your unlicensed friends to work security if you&#8217;re a Miami club operator. You could own a venue and I could be inside cracking skulls on your behalf in five minutes, no license needed. </p>
<p>The UK takes it a step further and has a government agency, the Security Industry Authority, which oversees all security personnel in the country. You have to get licensed (licenced!) and re-certified at regular intervals, whether you&#8217;re a grunt standing on the box, a floor supervisor, muscle at the door, or a VIP &#8220;host&#8221;. It&#8217;s not perfect, but it was in response to incidents like the above.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Quimbly</title>
		<link>http://carlosmiller.com/2009/12/07/canadian-bouncers-just-as-thuggish-as-some-american-bouncers/#comment-17704</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Quimbly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:06:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosmiller.com/?p=9011#comment-17704</guid>
		<description>At least cops have some training about the laws they&#039;re supposed to enforce (and not break.)

The (mostly) punks that pose as coppers for venues tend to know nothing about the laws, and often break them.

In NYC I&#039;ve seen bouncers touch, push, shove, punch, deck and detain patrons.  You would think they&#039;d know that city law does not give them the power to abuse or detain people ... if it did, they might not take the job.

Then again, a couple of months ago, not two blocks from my flat, a &lt;a href=&#039;http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/08/23/2009-08-23_deadly_shooting_at_east_village_bar_bouncer_killed_2_wounded_outside_forbidden_c.html&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bouncer got popped by some gangster who drove up, stepped out and just started shooting&lt;/a&gt;.

I didn&#039;t know him.  Neighbors tell me he was a good guy,  not a young turk.  I was outta town that week.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least cops have some training about the laws they&#8217;re supposed to enforce (and not break.)</p>
<p>The (mostly) punks that pose as coppers for venues tend to know nothing about the laws, and often break them.</p>
<p>In NYC I&#8217;ve seen bouncers touch, push, shove, punch, deck and detain patrons.  You would think they&#8217;d know that city law does not give them the power to abuse or detain people &#8230; if it did, they might not take the job.</p>
<p>Then again, a couple of months ago, not two blocks from my flat, a <a href='http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2009/08/23/2009-08-23_deadly_shooting_at_east_village_bar_bouncer_killed_2_wounded_outside_forbidden_c.html' rel="nofollow">bouncer got popped by some gangster who drove up, stepped out and just started shooting</a>.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t know him.  Neighbors tell me he was a good guy,  not a young turk.  I was outta town that week.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Krueger</title>
		<link>http://carlosmiller.com/2009/12/07/canadian-bouncers-just-as-thuggish-as-some-american-bouncers/#comment-17703</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Krueger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 00:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosmiller.com/?p=9011#comment-17703</guid>
		<description>The thing that&#039;s absolutely pathetic/hilarious about the Chicago case is that the Marina City Online--which is essentially a condo complex newsletter for the iconic building across the street from HOB--has consistently done a more professional and accurate job of covering the story than any mainstream media outlet.

I mean, I&#039;ve gotten used to bottom-line-uber-alles media mostly doing a crap job compared to people covering stuff they care about--people like Carlos--but this one seems really egregious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thing that&#8217;s absolutely pathetic/hilarious about the Chicago case is that the Marina City Online&#8211;which is essentially a condo complex newsletter for the iconic building across the street from HOB&#8211;has consistently done a more professional and accurate job of covering the story than any mainstream media outlet.</p>
<p>I mean, I&#8217;ve gotten used to bottom-line-uber-alles media mostly doing a crap job compared to people covering stuff they care about&#8211;people like Carlos&#8211;but this one seems really egregious.</p>
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		<title>By: anoon</title>
		<link>http://carlosmiller.com/2009/12/07/canadian-bouncers-just-as-thuggish-as-some-american-bouncers/#comment-17701</link>
		<dc:creator>anoon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 20:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosmiller.com/?p=9011#comment-17701</guid>
		<description>the HOB victim is seeking $1.7 million in damages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the HOB victim is seeking $1.7 million in damages.</p>
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		<title>By: Lazerous</title>
		<link>http://carlosmiller.com/2009/12/07/canadian-bouncers-just-as-thuggish-as-some-american-bouncers/#comment-17699</link>
		<dc:creator>Lazerous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 19:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosmiller.com/?p=9011#comment-17699</guid>
		<description>Trash is trash no matter where you are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trash is trash no matter where you are.</p>
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		<title>By: mepsipax</title>
		<link>http://carlosmiller.com/2009/12/07/canadian-bouncers-just-as-thuggish-as-some-american-bouncers/#comment-17693</link>
		<dc:creator>mepsipax</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://carlosmiller.com/?p=9011#comment-17693</guid>
		<description>Like a border stops idiocy?  Come on Carlos, they are people too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like a border stops idiocy?  Come on Carlos, they are people too.</p>
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