By Carlos Miller
Boise police already had the suspect handcuffed when they rammed a Taser gun into his anus and fired.
Then they placed the Taser gun against his genitals and threatened to do the same.
At the time, the domestic violence suspect was lying face down with three officers on top of him, according to the Idaho Statesmen.
He couldn’t even breathe.
It was all caught on tape. Here is the exchange that took place:
Cop: Do you feel this?
Suspect: Yes, sir.
Cop: Do you feel that? That’s my …
Suspect: Okay
Cop: … Taser up your ass.
Suspect: Okay
Cop: So don’t move.
Suspect: I’m trying not to. I can’t breathe.
Cop: Now do you feel this in your balls?
Suspect: I do, sir. I’m not going to move. I’m not gonna move.
Cop: Now I’m gonna tase your balls if you move again.
(A full minute goes by)
Cop: Okay, I’m gonna take this Taser out of your asshole now. Are you going to fight with me?
Suspect: No, not at all, sir.
Cop: (to another cop) So far, for the last two minutes, he’s been cooperative. But then my Taser’s in his ass.
Not only was the exchange documented on the cop’s own tape recorder, the suspect ended up with burns on the inside of his right buttock. These were evident in photographs taken ten and 13 days after the incident.
Also, another cop who taped an interview with the suspect at the jail later that night ended up erasing the taped interview.
So you would think the first cop would be prosecuted for sexual assault? Or maybe the second cop be charged with tampering with evidence?
After all, we have a case in Florida where a group of 14-year-old boys are going to be tried as adults because they sodomized one of their classmates with broomsticks and hockey sticks.
But the rules are different when you are a cop.
After an internal investigation, police determined that the first officer violated the department’s use-of-force policy. And the second officer also violated department policy when he erased the taped interview.
Both officers have been “disciplined”, according to police.
But details of the discipline were not released. And neither were the names of the cops.
After all, police say, this is an “internal personnel matter.”
That’s right, nothing to see here. Move along now.
In fact, we would probably not have even heard of this story if it wasn’t for Boise’s Community Ombudsman, Pierce Murphy, who happens to be a former cop. His job is to investigate complaints of misconduct against cops.
Although he never names the cops, he did provide an extensive and graphic 43-page report on his findings.
The officers all told Murphy that the suspect was fighting, resisting and using profanity the entire time they were dealing with him, yet he notes that none of this is evident in the audio recording.
The Complainant was not completely still in response to the orders from police to stop moving. The Complainant was moving his torso and his legs in a manner consistent with trying to breathe more easily. The Complainant’s movements were not consistent with trying to escape from the police, attempting to head butt them, trying to kick any officer, or assaulting the officers.
Discussion of Finding: Consistent statements from the Complainant, Officer #1, Officer #2, Officer #6, and Officer #7. Although Officer #4 described the Complainant as “fighting” with the officers, yelling profanities, not doing what was commanded, kicking, and attempting to head butt them, the audio recording does not support her contention. No yelling of profanity by the Complainant can be heard. When the officers first entered the residence, the Complainant exclaimed, “God damn it. What the fuck?” The Complainant used no profanity after this. Officer #3 also stated that the Complainant was kicking. However, no officer can be heard on the recordings telling the Complainant to, “Stop kicking,” or, “If you kick again, I’ll tase you.” Instead, between the two of them, Officer #3 and Officer #4 told the Complainant several times to, “Stop moving,”.
Murphy also determined that the officers could have killed the suspect by piling on top of him like they did.
In the course of this investigation, it was clear that the involved officers were familiar with the concept of Positional Asphyxia as it relates to prisoners who are hobbled. However, none of the officers seemed to be aware of the possible danger posed by Positional Asphyxia to the Complainant in this case. This was a situation where a heavy, not terribly physically fit, middle-aged man had engaged in heavy physical exertion at the door. He was then placed face-down on the ground and handcuffed with his hands behind his back and the weight of three officers on his body. This may have had the effect of restricting the expansion of the Complainant’s chest and diaphragm, thus inhibiting the ability of the Complainant to get adequate oxygen and exhale sufficient carbon dioxide to compensate for the physical exertion in which he had just engaged.
Around the nation, many in-custody deaths have been attributed to Positional Asphyxia. The following is taken from an article appearing in the June, 1995, National Law Enforcement Technology Center Bulletin produced by the US Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice.
But despite the sodomy, the torture, the destruction of evidence and even the attempted manslaughter, Murphy’s recommendation was that these officers simply needed more training.
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Fernandez, as I mentioned in a 
Sickening. And I’m sure those who characterize this website and most of its readers as “cop-haters” will try their hardest to rationalize this away as well. (That’s sickening, too.)
I’m sure jones would like a taser in the ass. He’d only get mad if the officer didn’t call the next day.
one of the many reasons I left that country.
@prozacula
May I ask where you went? I have a dream of getting the F out of this country.
C’mon jones, you’ve been awfully quiet.
Oops, didn’t mean to leave you out 10-8. C’mon. I’m just dying to once again hear you defend the indefensible.
The police chief called this “Conduct unbecoming of an officer.” Perhaps this is the new politically correct phrase for sexual torture.
Another interesting point found in the Ombudsman report was that the police never identified themselves as police before they broke down the door. The suspect claimed not to have known it was the police and he thought it was some friends of his girlfriend. So, he may have been telling the truth that he didn’t know it was the cops until they broke in. His reaction seems to support that version of events. He said “God damn it, and what the fuck.” Certainly a reaction that might have understandable when he found out it was the cops and not the others.
The prosecutor also determined that nothing “Illegal” happened to prosecute. Hmm, what if I had done this to my neighbor that I was upset with. Would the prosecutor have just called it a neighborly disagreement and left it at that? I doubt it. I would be in prison.
Another question came to mind as I was reading the report. There were something like 10 officers there. Why the hell didn’t any one of them say something like “Hey Bill, why don’t you let me take over” or “Hold it a minute” or something to stop the torture. I think the other officers had a duty to act, but perhaps that precept to protect and serve doesn’t apply if another officer is doing the abusing.
Lots going on in Canada with evil taser issue. See my blog. Also on Twitter.
Who says nothing fun ever happens in Boise?
DONT TAZE ME BRO
The Taser is being used as an instrument of torture and should be banned.
i think i am going to vomit now
And another millionaire is born. Police are better than the lottery at redistributing wealth.
i guess we’ll have to take the cops new toys away, they dont seem to be able to make “nice, nice” with them…
From speaking with other cops, they quite frequently shake their heads when I relate issues like this and comment on the lack of training. So the suggestion that the officers need more training seems to be valid. If you stick someone with nothing else but a uniform, badge, gun and nearly unlimited authority without having provided training, it’s not surprising that stupid stuff like this happens.
Of course, noting that an officer needs more training is not meant to excuse behavior or indicate that some discipline isn’t appropriate. The problem that some of these departments face is figuring out who to discipline: the cop who acted without training, or the supervising cop who didn’t provide training and set expectations of behavior.
It’s a common problem at many law enforcement agencies, particularly the smaller ones without time and money to spend on training.
In this case, I wouldn’t imagine that a decent human being needs training to know that it’s wrong to stick a taser up someone’s ass. No amount of training is going to replace this deviant’s lack of humanity (unless he gets a taste of his own medicine).
So let me see….if I as a citizen does this, is it also considered “not enough training”? Or would they get to go to jail, not pass go and collect $200? What do I think should happen? I think that someone up in Boise needs to ambush these bastards and stick a taser up their ass and then a .357 and blow them into the next existence. WHEN THE GOVERMENT FEARS THE PEOPLE there is FREEDOM, when the PEOPLE FEAR THE GOVERNMENT THERE IS TYRANNY. Thomas Jefferson quote.
Getting tased by some cop scumbags like this surely falls into the catalog of TYRANNY. Doesn’t it? And HOW do we make THEM fear US? What is the 2nd amendment FOR? Watch the Dr. Susanna Gratia-Hupp video on YOU TUBE if you are too stupid to figure it out.
William, I couldn’t disagree more. Furthermore, I would tell those officers they are full of sh*t.
It is completely unreasonable to believe this behavior stems from a lack of training. Is it reasonable to believe that using a taser on someones anus is a legitimate use of force? Of course not, it is unconscionable.
The question of who to hold responsible is quite easy in this case. The public via the police department will pay this man the money that is due him. The taxpayers will pay again and again until they get their collective heads out of their asses and admit to the reality that surrounds them.
Tell those cops to stop shaking their heads and do something. They are witnesses to the brutalization of citizens everyday. And yet, they remain silent. They are no less guilty than the ones committing these violent acts against Americans.
The suspect was clearly Al Qaeda and this was just some “enhanced” interrogation.
Sure would be nice if they mistook you for one too. And I was standing by to cheer them on. Moron.
The training process is a great time to weed out the cops who should not have been hired in the first place. Please do increase training.
I think the cop should get a taste of the taser after it had been up the guy’s ass.
You’re too nice.
A decade ago in NYC, nearly this same sort of cop behavior netted the sodomizer a 30 year no-parole jail sentence (Justin Volpe, the permanently former cop), and the sodomizee a multi-million dollar settlement from the city (Abner Louima.)
There seems to be a need for a meta-PD that has no interests or entanglements with local PDs, since it’s clear that the police don’t police themselves very well – even in obvious clear-cut cases like these.
I thought that’s what the FBI was for, but getting them interested in enforcement against local PDs seems to be very difficult.
Apparently assault to a man’s genitals can get you four years in prison. But only if the man wears a nifty little uniform and you don’t.
http://www.cbs6albany.com/news/nisselback-1264999-police-officer.html
What a joke! Carlos once again gives a factually distorted and inaccurate account of the facts. Read the original story, listen to the tape and you can tell there is dog pile of police officers on this guy in an effort to subdue him. Its clear from the tape they did not strip the suspect and cram and a taser inside his rectum.
Oh how nice. They just shoved up his butt while he was in his underwear and that makes it ok. And the tape recording of what they were saying sounds like they were just being good ol’ boys. I think you’ve had enough Miller as it has taken out the majority of your brain cells.
MillerTime#21,
You’re right the officer missed the anus, but thought he didn’t. He only threatened to use it on the guys testicles. The Boise ombudsman only thought it was excessive force (hint: excessive force equals unlawful equals criminal behavior).
Another proud day.
MillerTime,
Are we arguing about the depth of penetration? Is that what this has come down to?
Carlos, keep up the good work exposing these low life psychopathic screwballs.
Carlos: He only wanted to put the tip in.
@Jon – A Meta PD that is even further unaccountable?
@William – How much training does an 18 year member of the force need to know not to erase interrogation tapes deliberately?
It is pitiful that this chief is so blind to see that any crime (particularly one of this magnitude) committed by they very agency you trust to protect you from crime, for any reason, is 10 times worse than a private citizen committing the same crime. The reason is that it’s a complete violation of a trust.
If an officer is capable of this kind of travesty, he is not worthy of the public’s trust, and should loose his privilege as a public servant. He should have been fired, and barred from law enforcement for crossing that line. Only this will deter other would be violators from committing the same atrocities. If you know you’re career is at stake, it changes the picture entirely.
His job was to arrest and restrain, not deal out his own brand of “just” punishment, torture, whatever.
No amount of training will replace the public’s trust in the institution until the offending member is removed. It’s like a chicken killin’ dog. Once he get’s the taste for it, you will never break him of it. You have to tie him up, kill him, or let him be.
I’m not so barbaric as to suggest we kill them, but they should be “tied up” so to speak, by being barred from practicing law enforcement.
CYA-101: Always order an internal investigation; satisfy the media, dismiss dissenters with rhetorical nonsense, confuse issue, move on.
Gee, I wonder why more people don’t trust cops?
If this cop needed training to know not to shove a taser in a guy’s ass, maybe he should not have been hired.
GoodJobCops :”The suspect was clearly Al Qaeda and this was just some “enhanced” interrogation.”
That is the stupidest comment i have ever read. You are a complete moron!!
Um…hello? Why is everyone offering this man sympathy? You all seem to be forgetting that this asshole hit a woman.
This story was written in a strong bias favoring the “victim.”
I was once arrested for domestic violence for restraining my wife from beating up our roommate. Should the cop have shoved a taser in my ass as well? The police have a protocol to follow, not to mention “innocent until proven guilty”….. Whether or not he should have been punished is a judge’s decision, not a cop’s, and should have been left at that. In case you’re wondering how my domestic violence case turned out, they dropped the case because their shit was weak. It was so weak, in fact, that the DA’s deal for me was “6 months good behavior, no jail, no fine, no criminal record.”
The cop should have shoved it up further.
You all are morons. There was no videotape. The guy clearly could breathe. He’s alive, isn’t he? Unless he was totally freaking naked, the taser obviously wasn’t in his ass – the officer was just saying, “I’m going to tase you in your ass,” like we’d say, “I’m going to beat the shit out of you.” Obviously we’re not going to literally beat the shit right out of someone’s anus, now are we?
Give me a break. Cops have to deal with idiots all the time in the line of duty. They protect us then we complain. The people complaining are the ones who probably have something to hide (you all). You don’t like cops because you don’t like the thought of someone having power over you.
Well, why don’t y’all move off and live in Darfur? Then you wouldn’t have to deal with the terrible police officers beating up on your innocent asses. You’d just be killed.
Fool!! You’re the idiot!! You sound like you get your freak from clear and true torture like this. He should have shoved it up further? Get your empty head out of the sand!! You could be next in the cattle prod line or on the mortician’s table. Because he didn’t die from the incident or because his buttocks were burned through clothes and not nakedness then it wasn’t sadistic torture? You don’t have to go to Darfur to meet police torture in the name of the law, or naive, sadism supporters like yourselve. Police Badges don’t change for the better the mentality or moral nature of the few bad apples empowered within our fragmented system of law enforcement. It only gives these bad apples the opportunity to play out sadistic and wicked tendencies, LIE or EXAGGERATE about it, and then hide behind the blue curtain drawn to protect the members only law enforcement club. The us against them unwritten rule exists, believe it or not, and is supported by a large number of these supposedly public servants. I hope that you never come in contact with one, or a group of these expert public servants with the privilege to use deadly force, and experience what some people have experienced in the application of expert misplaced authority upon their person. There are a large number of good and moral police officers who protect and serve the public for the good of our society who shouldn’t have to be identified along with these expertly trained deviates, even more, should want to receive the misguided support of uninformed sadistic idiots like you.
John,
I would submit that you are the moron on this subject.
The suspect was likely suffering from hypercarbia (Increased C02) and hypoxia (Low Oxygen) as well. This can happen even if you are breathing, take people with chronic respiratory diseases such emphysema, chronic bronchitis, pulmonary fibrosis, cystic fibrosis, pulmonary hypertension etc., they can not exchange oxygen/Co2 very well, yet they are breathing. If you want to feel what is is like, try breathing through one of those coffee stir sticks and take a walk (No breathing through your nose). You are still breathing, but I guarantee you won’t be able to maintain any exertion for long.
In the case of the suspect prone on the floor with two or three officers on top of him, the problem becomes a mechanical one. His respiratory muscles are just not strong enough to fully inflate his lungs given the officers weight on him as well as his own. He was reported to be obese and his abdomen would cause increased pressure against the diaphragm limiting tidal volume (The amount he could breath in). He might be strong enough to overcome it for some short period of time, but given the now tremendous workload of having to breathe, the muscles will quickly come to failure. In addition, his muscles may have already been depleted of oxygen and ATP (Energy) from holding the door and the struggle with the police. The muscles fail, and his C02 levels increase, leading to the feeling of suffocating and panic sets in. He is now panicking while being held down. The officers, not aware of what they are doing to the suspect interpret this as struggling to fight them, or get away, but in reality he is trying to keep from dying.
So, you have a case of the officers ignorance leading to further exacerbation of the situation.
As for all the people posting “He got what he deserved”. Since when does the police officer who has been on the scene for 5-10 minutes and only has some second hand information from dispatch get to choose the punishment? If I am not mistaken, the court decides that later when all the facts and evidence can be brought forward and both sides get a chance to speak. Not a unilateral decision by the officer who may or may not have all of the relevant facts.
So, John maybe you should go to Darfur where the street gangs are the judge, jury and executioner. You seem to like it when our police behave that way.
If you have an opinion on the Boise Taser case I would encourage you to write to the following:
Mayor David Beitor – mayor@cityofboise.org
Police Chief Mike Masterson – mmasterson@cityofboise.org
Greg Bower Ada County Prosecutor – adacountyprosecutor@adaweb.net
City Council Members
Jim Tibbs (Retired BPD officer) – jtibbs@cityofboise.org
Elaine Clegg – eclegg@cityofboise.org
Maryann Jordan – mjordan@cityofboise.org
David Eberle – deberle@cityofboise.org
Vern Bisterfeldt (Retired BPD officer) – citycouncil@cityofboise.org
Alan Shealy – citycouncil@cityofboise.org
Lawrence Wasden (Idaho Attorney General) – http://www2.state.id.us/ag/about/ConstituentComments.htm
Give a megalomaniac suffering from delusions of grandeur, paranoia and a giant inferiority complex a uniform, a little authority, a gun to play with and this is what you get. Now, whatever the prisoner had done does not warrant this sort of treatment. Even the poor bastards in Guantanamo bay don’t get this sort of treatment.
As usual the conservatives ( who have never done anything wrong. No sir) are promoting the continuance of this crap.
Isn’t it time we let the courts deal and hand out judgement and sentence. These days in America you are guilty untill proven innocent.
Where’s your God now?
Just a post script to John. Don’t let idiots deal with idiots. Its a well known fact that the police dont exactly have the highest of intelligence otherwise they wouldn’t be doing the job that they are.
If there are stiffer penalties for criminals that assault or kill a police officer than criminal cops should face the same elevated sentences when they violate a citizen’s right to life, liberty or property. Give these officers their day in court and when a jury convicts them, make sure they receive the harshest penalty the law will allow. No plea bargaining or suspended sentences. They should be prohibited from ever holding a position in Federal, State or local law enforcement. Should there exist on the books, any precedent for capital punishment based on this unspeakable and totally unjustifiable torturous assault, these jack-booted thugs should be publicly executed.
Are you sure these gunvernment thugs weren’t just MS13 in full halloween regatta?
But then we repeat ourselves.
Sincerely,
John and Dagny Galt
Atlas Shrugged, Owner’s Manual For The Universe!(tm)
.
Baldchemist:
Sure, the Right has its nut-jobs, same as the Left. Doesn’t mean all of us support police misconduct & brutality. HTH
Keep it up cops…the American People outgun you 10-1 and you are really close to pissing us all off. Once we all snap cops will be powerless to stop us.
Another example of cop abuse where no “good cops” come forward or stop the “bad cops” from what I can only say is torture and attempted murder. People are in prison for lesser crimes. Other cops only defend the actions of bad cops and never voice outrage at these types of incidents. All cops need ongoing independent psychological reviews.
He was a domestic violence suspect. Let’s ask the man’s VICTIM what they think.
If the rights of the accused do not exist for people you are angry with, they do not exist for anyone, including you. It does not matter what the man has done, it does not matter who he is, the conduct of the officers in question was illegal. It not only violated the law, but the public trust.
The rights of the accused exist to protect and fairly judge the innocent as well as the guilty. Punishment, especially not cruel and unusual punishment, is not the mien of law enforcement, That is a matter for a court of law, and a jury of his peers (if you don’t like the outcome there, perhaps you should address this with your judiciary and your fellow citizens, you know, the ones on the jury; maybe you could even *gasp* actually fill out one of those jury duty questionaires and actually, for the first time in your life, fulfill all the responsibilities of a citizen). This is stated clearly in the constitution so many of you give lip service to, and then flout at your convenience to serve your sadistic whims.
All of those here who are taking such pleasure in all of this, can just as easily be subjected to precisely the same treatment at the merest whim of the nearest person who dislikes you and is willing to lie to some random law enforcement officer. Sooner or later, in such systems, that man IS you. You will suffer the same fate precisely because you are so ecstatic to hear of it being inflicted on someone you have never met or heard of, regarding a criminal complaint you know nothing about.
If you were citizens, as befits a Republic, you could at least feel shame, but that is too much to ask of such a pack of craven savages as you.
@Wis – Yes, he was a domestic violence SUSPECT. That means he was SUSPECTED of dv, NOT convicted. Sometimes all it takes to become a SUSPECT of something is for someone that doesn’t like you to make a false accusation. Not saying this was necessarily the case here – I don’t know, I wasn’t there – but I do know a few individuals who have been falsely accused of violence, and their so-called “victims” were nothing more than (in separate cases) an ex-wife who was pissed with the amount of child-support the court ordered, a disgruntled ex-employee, and an ex-girlfriend who was pissed that the “suspect” wouldn’t go out with her again. And in one of the cases, the officer responding heard “sounds of a scuffle” which was the “victim” throwing cans of food at the “suspect”.
In other words, you and the cops in this case all seem to have jumped to conclusions and approved and/or administered punishment based solely on an accusation.
Wis-
The glaring hole in your “argument” is the key word “suspect.” Perhaps the “man’s VICTIM” was actually the perp of the violence in the first place. Maybe the guy was actually defending himself. Who knows?
FIGHT BACK!
Couple of tips for you. I’ve never been on this site before so I don’t know your protocol but it appears that BS is called fast.
1. ALL cops are adrenaline addicts. I think it comes from high school contact sports , where the adrenaline fumes go straight to the cheerleaders’ heads and the “winner” of the game gets laid. I have been around too many situations where the cop pushes it way past the limit of what is being discussed to next a beatdown and arrest because the cop needed his adrenaline fix.
2. If you have ever been in a cop bar, there is NO bragging “my kid got straight A’s” It is “Did you hear about that shooting over in the gut?”
Nothing exiting they will discuss shit that happened twenty years ago, before any of them were on the force. I call these mini adrenaline highs fueled with booze.
3. Cops that kill themselves after retiring do it because they can’t feed their addiction.
4. Always keep your hand in plain sight of the cop and turn your hands slightly so they can see “no weapon.”
5. Always be polite. “Yes, sir. No, sir and I don’t know, sir.” Always show respect.
6. Always speak slowly and clearly and ALLWAYS tell them what you are going to do before you do it. “Yes, sir. I am going to reach in my left hip pocket where I carry my wallet and my driver’s license.” Show the other hand clearly so the cop does not get nervous and the adrenaline runs over and he shoots you for “I thought he was pulling a gun.” Remember for every cop killed on the streets, there at least 4 innocent (totally uninvolved walking on the other side of the street) victims killed by stray gun fire or by a cop that is violating departmental policy and running at 90 mph in a family neighborhood chasing some dude who out drove him and sent him into his adrenaline fix mode and took off on a high speed chase.
7. Now this is my personal policy and think before you do it. I always carry concealed weapons in the US. Usually a small caliber pistol in a “belly” holster, a butterfly knife in my right rear pocket and a flick knife hanging down between my shoulders. I’ve carried concealed for forty years and only had to show maybe 7 times that I was armed. Not threaten just show. I pulled the flick knife once. I used the butterfly knife once. But I have always known that I have lulled the cop into stupid and I can kill him before he can draw that 9mm Glock. It has always been comforting to know that I held the hand that was going to win.
When I was 19, I had a cop shove a pistol in my face and I could see the bullets, no reason, just that adrenaline rush. This was before they had two way radios and he had made me wait until I just wanted to go home and go to bed. I was very careful and survived, but I have hated every fucking cop, rent a gun thug or MP that I have ever seen.
Oh, pistol puller. I couldn’t go to sleep because my adrenaline was through ceiling from fear. So, about 6 Am, I walked three doors down to the chief of police’s house. I had known him for twelve years. He and my scoutmaster tried to get me a Boy Scout life saving award for rescuing two young kids from a flash flooded creek when I couldn’t swim. Gun thug was fired before I went to work at 7am for another damn double shift with no sleep. Yeah, I hate cops and I really don’t like cop lovers, it seem real sick to admire the bully.
@William
Who do you discipline?! Hmmmm…the fucking douchebag who tasered someone in the asshole; that sounds like a good start to me.
Lack of training? Seriously? This is a very plain lack of humanity. God damn I am sick of hearing about cop brutality. Someone needs to take control, we need to take this to Obama. Please start spreading the word via blogs, Digg, and Reddit.
Stupid PUNK cops. Its worthless punk cops like this I just love to hear about in the news who get clipped in the line of duty!
RT
http://www.real-anonymity.pro.tc
They just need more training. Obviously the cops were never told that violent rape is not acceptable during an interrogation. Once they clear this up with the cadets, I’m sure that everything will be hunkey dory. Remember, the police are always right.
Don….
I love the gallows humor…..LOL
I love reading about police encounters because I always try to dissect them to see where the citizen could have done something different to de-escalate the leo encounter without giving up any constitutional rights.
The cops came to the home because of what I call the “Magic Call.” The Magic call seems to over ride every civil right that the occupant of the home or vehicle has because now the Leo has the “duty” to investigate, detain and subdue. But really, unlike all the Leos and leo sympathizers that contribute to this site, the Magic Call doesn’t give Leos the right to step all over civil and constitutional rights.
If the occupant of the home doesn’t want to answer the door, go get a warrant. They, Leos, said they broke into the home because the female occupant said that they could come in. Probably questionable, but the citizens didn’t have the camera rolling, so its the Leos’ word against “street trash”. Trade in your guns for cameras, folks. Cameras are much more deadly. This encounter was totally one sided and there wasn’t much else that the victim of the police brutality could have done. It is fairly obvious that he didn’t resist arrest. I would classify this one in the area of torture. I wish we had a hidden video camera there.
I would like to know why there are so many stories about police “Sodomizing” people? you should delicate a page just for those stories, you would not believe how many are out there. Something is wrong some were.
I think the Ada County Prosecuting Attorney missed this Idaho Statute. So, a LEO gets an administrative discipline, where any other citizen would be facing up to life in prison.
TITLE 18
CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS
CHAPTER 66
SEX CRIMES
18-6608.FORCIBLE SEXUAL PENETRATION BY USE OF FOREIGN OBJECT. Every person who, for the purpose of sexual arousal, gratification or abuse, causes the penetration, however slight, of the genital or anal opening of another person, by any object, instrument or device, against the victim’s will by use of force or violence or by duress, or by threats of immediate and great bodily harm, accompanied by apparent power of execution, or where the victim is incapable, through any unsoundness of mind, whether temporary or permanent, of giving legal consent, or where the victim is prevented from resistance by any intoxicating, narcotic or anesthetic substance, shall be guilty of a felony and shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for not more than life.
William, if someone needs to be trained not to discharge a tazer up someones rear end maybe, just maybe, they are not good cop (or human) marterial
Ah well, when the Devil gets hold of those cops at a latter date, the treatment THEY receive will make sodomy look like fun.
They can’t train him to have compassion, he needs to be gone and never work as a police officer ever again. Heck he doesn’t even belong serving dinner at Denny’s! He needs psych treatment and keep him away from people!
Pass laws in your city that require police to wear micro-cameras and audio recording devices on their uniforms. Cameras are on at all times, from beginning to end of scheduled shifts. Make it a felony for anyone to tamper with or turn off the camera or mike – yes, even during those 20 minute bathroom breaks. Recordings can only be opened by court order or at request of detained or arrested citizen.
– If the police aren’t doing anything wrong, then what do they have to hide?
If the police are permitted to commit torture, then people who are not police can reasonably be expected to hate the police.
Wwlcome to Mystery Babylon
Welcome to Mystery Babylon.
All of you people here seem to be anti-police. Please don’t call us when you have been the victim of a robbery or rape. Just remember, you hate us! We will still come and help you while listening to you bad mouth us. Remember a world without law enforcement is anarchy. Anarchy will only lead to thugs victimizing you. But then again, thugs hate cops so many of you commenters are probably thugs. Ya;ll have good luck with your self defeating attitudes!
No, we love cops.
We just love it when they stick Tasers in our asses.
Please, sir, can I have another?
Isn’t it amazing? Cops don’t know when to stop doing what they are supposed to stop other people from doing.
Dear The Law, I am an pretty old guy, and I’m a pretty good guy, compared with many others, have had a lot less than my share of run-ins with the law, and I can’t remember a single incident in which my relationship with any cop was genuinely beneficial to me. But I’ve had several which were harmful. It was the cop’s ignorant or stupid behavior that made it so. Also, surely you’re aware that some police departments knowingly hire mentally retarded persons to be their police, because mentally retarded persons follow orders without asking questions. I don’t believe that is a practice that is going to make the police more loved, do you?
to THE LAW:
You sir are sorely mistaken on two counts.
One: I don’t think that the seniment is that we hate cops….those government gangster thugs are not cops. They are something between that white stuff that forms in the corner of your mouth when you’re really thirsty, and the little toilet paper cling-ons around your asshole.
Real Cops are awesome, and would be abundant under free market anarchy, and would not be tied to the government in any way.
That brings us to the second point, which is that Anarchy is exactly what we need to restore liberty and prosperity to America.
Your attitude (based on your writing) seats you very close to the “dangerously psychotic” section. I hope you can mature through it B4 you hurt someone, or even yourself.
Best regards
The Law // Jul 27, 2009 at 10:48 PM
Only if there is NO other way (meaning I need info that cannot be obtained w/o a court order) .
Otherwise, I wait my time before dealing out my own justice w/o getting caught. Saves alot of taxpayer money.
Oh, and I do have a CCP so that you don’t have to body bag me when you’re too late to ‘defend me’ (LOL) when someone pulls a weapon in my presence.
Remember one thing LAWBOI, -Innocent until PROVEN guilty.
I wore a badge in the past too and 95% of the cops I met were unfit to wear one.
please, you leftiest pieces of fucking libertarian trash, shut the fuck up. what gives you the right to know how police are disciplined by the department? you automatically assume this will be lenient or non-existant because of your pre-existing “i hate the police” stigma that is stuck inside your head.
i hope you all die in a starbucks fire, you cunts.
what gives you the right to know how police are disciplined by the department?
We fund the department, asshole.
How could it be clearer? “realist” proves by his own language the low IQ level of people who like cops.
Carlos….
Get down with your bad self bro! You hit the nail on the head.
Public Servant positions are positions of great privilege. With great privilege comes great responsibility, and that goes hand in hand with accountability.
Cops who violate the public trust need to be banned from law enforcement for good.
Regards
maybe that guy shouldn’t be a dirt bag and fight with the police in the first place
I think i like realist
Has anyone verified this story? Is it real? I haven’t heard anything from the major news media. They report on stories like this all the time. They jump on them. Yet nothing on this one. This leads me to believe this story is false. And before any of you crucify me for sharing my opinion, I am here to tell you not all law enforcement personnel are bad. Far from it. You cannot judge all by the actions of a few.
I am a Christian and serve the Lord Jesus Christ first and foremost. Second, I serve the citizens whom I am paid to serve. God Bless.
Deputy Sheriff: The major news media typically avoid stories like this, unless there’s an angle that makes the story unusual for stories of its type. With this story that’s not the case. Besides, if you will look around, you’ll see there are plenty of stories they won’t touch. They tend to like stories that are ambiguous and controversial, where the police might be right or might not, depending on people’s opinions. Here the police were clearly wrong. That’s not the type of information the main media prefer to print, because it makes readers feel bad, so doesn’t sell papers as well, and it doesn’t support the system. And, for your information, while I cannot speak for everyone, a servant is not the kind of person I want for a policeman. What I want is an adult human being who is capable of using his own mature judgement in a way that is comparable to myself. I’m not interested in someone who can only follow orders but prefer a real man who can think for himself. This includes being able to recognize when typical police practices are not really very good and should be changed, as well as being able to question an order, determine its value based on its real merits or shortcomings, then refuse to obey it when appropriate. If you have to be a servant, be a butler. Of course, they don’t drive cars more expensive than the ones owned by the people they work for. But they do not beat up on the public. This is why you are not a servant. You car is more expensive than the ones driven by the people you work for. You’re just pretending to be a servant, because you think that makes you look good. Actually what you like is the power of being able to tell people what to do, and you use the claim of being a servant to make yourself believe you are doing what the public wants you to do. You’re not, believe me.
Deputy Sheriff:
“You cannot judge all by the actions of a few.”
Yes. that is true. Please share that information with your wrong headed, profiling brethren, won’t you?
@Deputy Sheriff
“Has anyone verified this story? Is it real? I haven’t heard anything from the major news media.”
Is the Ombudsman’s report not verification enough? Do you think the Ombudsman made the whole incident up? Or are you thinking that the Ombudsman’s report is a fake from an outside source? The Idaho Statesman didn’t seem to think the report was a fake. Are they not “major” enough for you to believe?
See, this is part of the problem. It is true that not all cops are bad, but even the good cops don’t want to believe that ANY cops are bad. So they ignore things and make excuses to themselves and to others for their colleagues’ bad (and even criminal) behavior.
When a cop has done something illegal, we, as a supposedly free nation of supposedly equal individuals, should not have to prove it beyond ALL doubt to the police themselves and THEN prove it again beyond all doubt to a prosecutor and THEN prove it a third time beyond all doubt to a judge AND THEN a jury. Not when the rest of us get sent to the prosecutor on slight suspicion, then sent on to a judge and jury on reasonable suspicion with a little bit of convincing (but sometimes misleading) evidence, and then judged only to the standard of “beyond REASONABLE doubt”. But that’s what usually happens. And since the cops themselves are trying so very hard to not see the bad cops, there are very few cops prosecuted, and even relatively few cops disciplined by the department.
People create government. Common law is still the law of the land. It is the law of substance. The corporate state is a fiction. It is the servant of the people and can only exist when not used for an unlawful purpose. No matter what appears to be statute or law coming out of the corporate state, it takes people to enforce the dictates of a tyrant. If any man enforces a rule which violates a right of another living breathing man or woman, he is a criminal. There are remedies at the common law to accommodate the punishment of crimes against ones fellow man, regardless of a delusion that it was done under orders of a state or federal official. If the crime involves the death or another, the punishment cannot be reversed by pardon. Further, the finding of a common law court (court of the people) cannot be reviewed by an administrative tribunal- not even the president, for they are mere servants and fiduciaries of the public trust.) It’s time we put our servants in their place.
Police these days are getting worse and worse and yet it seems the consequences are just getting lighter. How is it an option for a cop to even conceive of the idea to stick a taser up someones ass? i thought these people were suppose to go through psychological evaluations or something. If this crazy bastard had the balls to do this in front of a crowd just imagine what he would do to somebody when no one was around. Next time it might be his baton or gun.
Egore…….
Police are not chosen for their intelligence level. There might be testing in this area, but it is not criteria for eligibility.
All you need, is a desire to control others, be “teachable” (easily indoctrinated) and follow orders. Kind of a mindless rabble of thugs, book trained, Locked-cocked-and ready to rock, authorized to use deadly force if necessary, to enforce the state’s agenda.
I am by no means suggesting that all cops are bad, but MOST cops are bad. Some of the ones who aren’t, are “bound” by a “code of brotherhood” to protect their colleagues for litigious peril, using their badge and so-called “integrity” to refute clams made by peons like you and I.
That leaves the rest, an relatively small minority, who actually believe in the rule of law, and have actually SWORN to uphold their OATH TO PROTECT THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
To all cops who don’t believe it’s their job to enforce the constitution: You are a bunch of scum sucking culls, not even fit to LIVE in my country! Your days are numbered.
Sheriff Richard Mack is one of the great men who believe in actually enforcing the constitution, and WHEN our country reverts back to anarchy (as it well should) Sheriff Mack will find his services in huge demand in the private law enforcement field.
You can check out http://usa1911.com/what.html and see what he calls “The Sheriff Project”
regards…..
i think most of you r idiots!
what you seem to be forgetting is that the suspect had just committed domestic abuse!
its about time some real justice was dispensed, not a slap on the wrist then they go back and beat the holy shit out of their wives.
and as for the comment about the 14 year olds that sodomized the classmate with brooms and hockey sticks, are you trying to say that they shouldn’t be done as adults? if that is the case then you really are sick!
i’m just glad that the woman beating piece of shit got what he deserved
Sampsonite…..
While you’re thinking of more name to call law abiding citizens who simply want the pigs to honor their oath, consider this:
1) Domestic violence was only assumed, not proven,
2) If you had listened to the tape you fucking moron, you would have heard a whole lot of “yes sir” and “no sir” amid the fascist intimidation tactics of these sorry excuses for human beings.
3) when was it decided that the cops have the right or authority to mete out punishment for a crime not proven, or to deal out punishment at all? That is not their province.
4) as long as morons like you have a say in ANYTHING democratic, America is in grave danger of falling prey to the fascists, just like the Germans under Hitler.
5) America is waking up.
6) To all Statists: BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID.
Anyone have an opinion as to where a nice country to move to would be?
Argentina
I could tell you NotAnObot. There are still a few places that still have some respect of rights, I’ve already bailed out of the great ole United police States of America, and am living in one of those places, but it’s already getting way to crowded with Americans that are totally fed up with what the UpSA has become. You’ll have to find it on your own. If you really want to live relatively free, do your research like I did.
to the people defending the police on the basis that the man MAY HAVE assaulted a woman. EVEN if that’s true (by the way… we don’t know jack shit about that) but let’s suppose he beat the holy hell out of her. fuck him. okay. but here’s the thing, when police start acting on emotion and stop doing their job (like anally raping a man with a tazer, or almost killing someone by suffocation) because they dislike or disagree with a perp… that is a scary scary thing. i don’t care if he’s hitler. they can NOT do that! those are the inmates jobs. justice is served inside prison walls, or otherwise, but it should not be doled out by officers with an ego problem. If they can do it to him, they can do it to ANYONE, and these are the kind of stories we should all be paying attention to and doing something about. like writing the judge, like protesting. what happened to us? there is no excuse! The fact that these officers still have jobs should make us all afraid to be americans. when an authority figure can rape someone and blatantly dispose of evidence and doesn’t go to jail, or much less lose their jobs says a lot. still proud to be an american? this shit happens ALL. THE. TIME.
To Manda:
The last sentance of your post pretty much sums up the problem. They are not isolated incidents…….they’re just the one’s we hear about. Knowing that the media supports the establishment, (and this type of recording surfacing has to be rare) the number of possible offenses we never hear about must be staggering.
To any cops that are offended by my assertions:
Right after you FUCK OFF, get some quality time with you’re bretherin and pull your heads out of you collective asses and get a real job.
To any cops NOT offended, but concerned about the future of law enforcement:
Bless you. Please use your professional talents to teach the dogs to behave, or have them euthanized.
Regards
Lack of Training? I agree with the above poster stating “Lack of Humanity”.
A vile and unforgivable act! General population in federal prisons for these thugs. If police fail to serve and protect then they are not doing their jobs, if police brutalise individuals, they are breaking the law-if laws are broken, people are punished. Try then convict on rape and sentence accordingly.
Absolutely disgusting!!
I am appalled by this. I know there are some good cops out there but when you don’t speak up against the bad ones it makes you just as bad! Your there to help us, to fight for us, and uphold the law. You took and oath doesn’t that mean anything to you. Most cops are worried about this “brethren” thing guess what it’s not a damn fraternity. You’re not college boys having a good time. You’re adults! I believe if the cops break the law they have to sit or do the maximum time. Why? They went to college they have had the law embedded into their heads for how ever many years it takes to come a cop and then to still break the law! You knew it was wrong and did it anyway! You deserve the max!
As for those who want to defend the dude in this case. Ok, we don’t know for a fact that he was doing anything at all. Also you think those cops who are so out to get him are not going to file charges? Oh yeah they are. Dude will get his punishment for his actions, if they can prove he did anything to begin with. Now here is the reason no one is focusing on him because the story here is the cop shoved a taser up dudes ass! This, as far as I know, is illegal to do anywhere. The cop used force and his buddy even tried to cover it up for him. If you would stop being asses to everyone and only be an ass to the ones who honestlyare being jerks you might actually have a light day for a change. Most people don’t want confrontation with cops, because at one point in time in their life they had some kind of run in with the cops and it wasn’t a good one.
Now, I will admit my first marriage I had plenty of run in with the law. So many, the judges started knowing my name and I wasn’t the one getting any of the charges. Now my experience with police is: the more you kiss ass and be polite the faster you can get away. Stand your ground if need be but remember you have to go before a judge before that ticket is stuck on your record. If you didn’t do the crime and they are charging you then fight! If they want to search your car and they have no grounds for doing so then tell them no! They don’t have the right to just rummage threw your shit. Also they do not have the right to just walk into your house. They need a search warrant to do such things. Unless they are invited or they see any illegal activities going on. So when they show up to your house you step outside and talk to them.
As for Deputy Sherriff up there, if you’re a good cop and you have stood up against the bad cops and still stand your ground and uphold the law and uphold your oath, then I have no problem with you. But come on even you have to admit this was over the line. This was a bad cop abusing his privileges that we as civilians gave him. I will say I have had many interactions with police and many have surprised the shit out of me and let me go with warnings on speeding tickets and head lights out but on that same note I have had many bad ones that had abused their rights and mine. I am a person with only two misdemeanors on my records. Now I haven’t done anything since 1996 except traffic tickets. I’m 31 years old now.
As for the other cop that said don’t call us if we’re robbed or rapped. First off what a piece of shit you are. As for me, if it were legal to go beat some ones ass for stealing my shit or rapping me? I would never call you! EVER! You showed exactly what shouldn’t be hired for a police officer.
Public Servant positions are positions of great privilege. With great privilege comes great responsibility, and that goes hand in hand with accountability. Cops who violate the public trust need to be banned from law enforcement for good.
I took a little bit from everyone I agreed with. Now why can’t we debate like this in person without trying to kill eachother!?!?
fucking hippies its simple don’t be a shit bag and beat your wife and you wont get tasered and all of you fuck sticks that are complaining about this country saying you want to find a new place to live please get the fuck out Canada is north and mexico south better yet we have an ocean at each end please drown your self , fuck off and take a fucking shower
Sotsec7: Blah, blah, blah……
Sotsec7,
I’ve been wanting to write a story on the last remaining hillbillies in the U.S.A. You actually sound like the perfect subject for an interview: retarded, uneducated, paranoid, probably inbred, and likely brandishing a loaded, unsafed weapon in public.
Would you please contact me at fuckoff@gmail.com?
I see one of the officers, sotsec7, is commenting here. In a country that is supposed to have a government by and for the people this should be taken before a jury. I’d like to be on a jury for the brave and lucky person who defends themselves from abuse with a taser by using their second amendment rights. Not guilty. Corrupt police are far more a threat to most people in this country than “terrorists”. According to the supreme court of this country if a police officer is breaks the law he is no longer acting as a police officer but if armed may be considered an armed criminal and if a person defends themselves by killing the armed criminal it may be found that they have done nothing wrong at all.
Please note . Through personal experience I once
was a business owner and a home owner who is now a felon and has lost everything i own . I know first hand the otrosities that police and the D>A> are capable of . I urge everyone to look at this website .
http://www.landrights.com/
The victim should be given a bat and the cops should be handcuffed and they should be locked in a cell and given about 10 minutes.
Jon Quimbly thats pretty funny line you got there how often do you use it did it go as well as you had hoped
Who cares? Do any of you know the suspect, Gerald Amidon, or the officers involved? Your indignation is boring. Carlos Miller, you are boring. You were arrested for being an annoying douche, so now you blog your douche ideology. If you think that American police are too harsh with suspects, go visit another country and learn about real police brutality. And I don’t mean Iran or North Korea; I’ve seen police officers in France and Italy kick the shit out of suspects in public. Why are Americans so full of themselves? Probably because we’re so spoiled. A guy that beats up his girlfriend in front of her 3 year old kid and then holds her against her will deserves to be tased in the balls. Ickybiker, you can suck it.
“Boise police already had the suspect handcuffed when they rammed a Taser gun into his anus and fired.”
Actually, according to the link that you yourself provided, they only tazed him on his butt. They threatened to taze him in his anus but didn’t actually do it. Come on, truth, man! What they did is bad enough. No use making up details.
I think every cop should have their heads checked out every six months any signs of abusive behavior they should have to take leave with or with out pay depending on vacation time and if they can not get it under control FIRE them. Cause in ANY other job if sexual torture happened you know they people involved would NOT have a job.
Coralie,
You want truth?
The guy had burn marks on the inside of his butt cheek two weeks after the incident.
Of course the best way to solve this controversy is to make it a legal requirement that every police person Taser every suspect on the anus. Then the police could simply quote the law, and everybody else would have to shut up. That’s what the police want, isn’t it? I don’t know why they can’t achieve it. They have more access to lawmakers than you or I do.
Alex……
You truly epitomize what’s wrong in America today. The willingness to settle for the “Lesser of evils”. I really don’t care how you spell of define it, evil is evil, the degree doesn’t matter.
To say that “it’s worse other places, therefore this is acceptable,” is the way a coward justifies lack of action.
Remember the pecking order. Cops are PUBLIC EMPLOYEES. In other words, They are NOT the boss! Moreover they are not the judge, or jury.
In your last post, you say “Ickybiker, you can suck it”. That pretty much sums up the mental capacity of most cops.
So, is that your problem, you’re one of the cowards involved in this travesty?
Alex shows us the problem. He sees the public as his enemy. And he doesn’t care what methods are used in achieving victory over us.
What did the suspect do? “Domestic Violence?” That’s a huge umbrella of crime. Who knows what he did to his spouse, girlfriend or child….maybe he deserved it!
Wow. I’ve apparently missed a lot in THIS thread.
Esther H and others: sweet zombie jeebus, how many times does it have to be repeated (even in JUST THIS THREAD) that “deserved it” isn’t even a factor here?
The police do not exist to punish people. Ever.
And Alex there looks like the big winner in the thread. If you’re so bored Alex, stop reading the blog.
Americans aren’t “so full of themselves.” There’s just quite a number of us that realize we’re not sheep.
Fuck. shit fuck shit shit fuck.
This is faulty journalism.
1. The taser wasn’t “in” the guy’s anus. It was over the top of his pants. Or are you suggesting that the officers stripped his pants and underwear off and actually stuck the taser into his asshole?
2. It wasn’t sodomy. The guy’s anus wasn’t penetrated.
3. There was no attempted manslaughter.
4. This article contains no proof of anything except that an officer used a bit of vulgar language toward a douchebag that was resisting arrest.
Yes, there are officers that are crooked, just as there are teachers, lawyers, construction workers, etc., that are crooked. But most officers do their job, that is, upholding the law, well. And they risk their lives day after day doing so. We should be grateful.
I don’t see any of you cowards out there doing their job. Why? Because you couldn’t handle it. You complain that some criminal was tased in the ass? Please, move to Darfur.
Most of the people complaining about police brutality have done something illegal or they have been mocking or incidiary in some way. Do you ever notice that? I’ve had no problems with police. Why? Because I don’t head into crime scenes taking pictures when officers are asking me to move on. I don”t argue with them when they pull me over. I don’t swear at them, resist them, or do anything else to piss them off. Why? Because I’m not an idiot. And because when I call on them, they’re there.
Not too long ago, I had a prowler in my neighborhood. I watched him steal a few things. I called 911 and reported him. I watched in satisfaction as the police rolled in and took him out. He tried to run and they took him down. Did he get hurt in the process? I hope so. And I’m not going to complain about it. I’m going to thank the officers for cleaning up my neighborhood.
I surely wish all you folks would move to another country.
Frankie doesn’t seem to care if cops torture people, or if cops obey the law. Frankie, maybe /you/ should move to another country, one where cops aren’t required to obey the law.
Heh, just occurred to me, he said “you cowards” – anyone wanna bet that Frankie’s a coop, one who doesn’t believe that he has to obey the law? Done any testilying, Frankie?
Yo Frankie….Listen to the tape my man.
When did he resist arrest?
What gives a cop the right to do anything more than detain and transport?
Listen to the tape, and then re-read your last post.
Peace
he was resisting when he was holding the door shut, anyway if i was a police officer i would have tasered the guy too because im the one that’s going home in one piece and really whats worse that the guy took a 5 second ride on the taser or that they would fight with him for five minutes and some one really got hurt like they used to , wow he had two little burn marks on his ass cry me a fucking river and its not like he didnt do any thing wrong in the first place its not like the Police were just driving down the street and thought lets go mess with this guy. ok put your self in there shoes you are called to a house for a fight and when you get there you hear commotion and screaming from inside you would go in and see just what the fuck is going on, because what if it was your sister or mom or wife screaming in that house you would sure as shit do something about it and thats what the police are paid to do, to go in to that house and protect strangers the same as they would their sister or mom or wife and you can say what ever you want about the police you hate them till you need them because im sure as you were born the day you get mugged, they day your car gets jacked,the day your child goes missing, the day a psycho walks in to your mall and starts shooting you will call for help and they will come to listen to you complain, to calm your fears and to suck up bullets for you, no matter what you say about them, any way you can say listen to that tape, read the article what ever do you really think thats the whole story its all been carefully skewed by a guy thats wants to make police look bad because he cant follow directions
Ok, now, I KNOW that there are a lot of people less intelligent than me in this country, but what the HELL is so difficult to understand about the statement “WE DON”T HATE ALL COPS, JUST THE ONES WHO BREAK THE LAW!!!!”
And ya know, I’m really getting sick of the ‘argument’ that those of us bitching about police misconduct should leave the country. Because it seems to me that the people who are ok with it should leave, since they seem to want a country where it is accepted that police beat whomever they think has maybe committed a crime. Those places already exist. But in THIS country, the constitution FORBIDS that action. Do you apologists know what the constitution is? Perhaps you should ask a librarian to show you a copy.
Kylie,
You are laboring under a misconception. The police in this country are NOT there to protect you. They are there only to enforce the law. They have, by supreme court ruling, NO obligation to protect the citizen what so ever. Only to enforce the law.
The police are indoctrinated, and trained, that the public is their enemy. They no longer believe themselves to be the servant of the people. They consider themselves as our masters. Don’t jump when they say froggy, and see how long it takes for you to end up in hand cuffs, on your face on the ground, with at least the threat of being tazered, or worse.
The police count on the fact that most people fear them. Lying, intimidation, torture, and the threat of violence are their major tools. They all know that there will be little, if any, repercussions for excessive use of force. Most people have little or no real knowledge of their rights under the constitution, or bill of rights. The police count on that ignorance, and the fact that most of the people they abuse will not have the resources, or inclination, to cause them any problems for that abuse.
I’m 60 years old. I’ve seen this country change from one where most police officers, only rarely carried guns, and did everything in their power NOT to arrest you. They did their best to earn the respect of the citizen and knew that abuse of authority, or lack of respect for the citizens they were sworn to protect, would get them kicked off the force immediately. The officers of today care little about respect. They only care about people fearing them. They thrive on violence and will arrest you at the first sign of lack of subservience.
I’m sad to say, ” We the people” has become “We the sheeple”. The citizens of this country have let this happen, and I don’t see it turning around. We have been conditioned to accept abuses, and have become so complacent we will accept almost any abuse as long as it doesn’t directly effect our daily lives. I would hope that people will finally wake up and take our country back. I don’t see it happening, but I can still hope.
And that, my friends, is why I no longer live in the United police States of America.
Sotsec,
Amen, brother.
And Kylie, yes, we should hate cops who break the law, but look at what these people do!
They mock, laugh, taunt, resist . . . then complain that the cops are getting too rough.
Don’t mock, laugh, taunt or resist (or break the law yourself, which most of the people complaining do) and the officers won’t be rough with you.
But it’s not illegal to talk tough to someone, or to tase them if they’re resisting.
Just because the guy said, “I’m not going to move,” or “I’m not moving” doesn’t mean he didn’t physically resist just beforehand (which he must have, or else he wouldn’t have been on the ground). And just because he said, “I can’t breathe,” doesn’t mean he couldn’t. He lived, didn’t he? He obviously could breathe.
These officers did a fine job taking this guy down.
And like I said before, this is faulty journalism. There are lies, even in the title. And there isn’t a shred of proof that these officers actually broke the law. They were rough with the guy. So what? He shouldn’t have resisted arrest.
Capt Turk, thank you very much for your post. Among all the posts on this webpage, it is one of the most rational, realistic, and responsibly stated. We need more people who are able to express their ideas in this way. But then, it takes years to learn how to do that, and most people in our nation today don’t know how to go about acquiring those skills. Schools are different now. Skills are not taught or encouraged. Everybody just wants to feel good. To me it seems clear that integration is associated with this reduction of quality in education.
Me/Capt Turk…..
While I agree the good Captain’s post should be the last on this thread, I just want to say that if we give up and move out of the country, the problem will not simply go away. They will eventually follow. Remember, these criminals are talking of “One World Government”. We need to take our country back form these thugs forcibly if necessary.
The law is the law. Either ALL laws apply, or NO laws apply. No thinking person could think otherwise.
SotSec7: Your attempt to sound intelligent just comes off like more blah, blah, blah.
You need to accept the fact that just because you’re a cop, it doesn’t mean that you have the right to abuse people just because you’re a fucking coward. Good cops can read a situation and adjust accordingly.
You say this guy WAS resisting, therefore you must be one of the arresting “officers”. That being the case, you obviously know you were wrong, or you wouldn’t be so indignant. “No one proclaims their innocence so strongly as the guilty.”
While the Captain speaks the truth, there is no reason we need to accept that. The criminal element in this country is a very small minority.
If it were any other way, these trigger happy paranoid punks could not control it, and that too is a fact. They want you to think there is this “MAJOR” threat of crime in America, but that too is a lie. It’s all been “created” by those who purport to have the solution. The battle cry of the statist is “never waste a good crisis” Why? because it creates panic, and the sheeple will give you anything you want.
Education is the enemy of the statist, Why do you think PUBLIC education is mandatory……and “free”? It’s an indoctrination process. Why do you think the state wants to abolish home schooling?
Wake op SotSec7……B4 your own hatred for your fellow human beings consumes you.
I suggest you reas H.H. Hoppe’s “Democracy: The god that failed”. It will give you a new perspective on the immoral nature of democracy and the state, which is merely “socialism lite”, but as evil as the soviet type, and will ultimately suffer the same fate.
America was founded as a limited republic, by Christians, Atheists, Deists, and some who never even thought about it….NOT a democracy. That whole philosophy sprang out of the French revolution, and was propogated in this country by such treasonous personages as Alexander Hamilton, and brought here by the Pragmatic French Coward Charles Talleyrand. (unfortunately for me, I am a decendant of Talleyrand.)
State control and greed have brought us to where we are at, and only the absolute antithesis of that will take us home.
Free society with free markets will weed out these culls We will get there, but it may be a generation or two B4 the effects of de-civilization we have suffered in the last 150 years will be overcome and the masses accrue enough intelligence to see the solution.
Education is the key. Read, Read, Read, Read, and when you’re done, Read some more. Never stop learning.
Being ignorant is not a crime. Remaining that way willingly is a crime against yourself.
Tasers are to a point good and to a point bad.
I understand the reason for choosing a taser over a gun lets face it that is a no brainer.
Yet tasers do have their issues for the cops.
1. Tasers are electricity and the cops do not have time to ask if the suspect has health issues that may kill them if they get tasered.
2. Honestly some people are very have issues with their skin easily burns (I know I am one of them what would cause a first degree burn on someone else will cause severe second degree burns on me)
3. Face it the cops go out everyday in the larger cities and deal with a wide variety of crimes and after a while mentally some crimes can get to a cop. (I have several in my family) add in adrenaline and sometimes things get out of hand.
I am by no means saying that causing injury to a supect is ok. But in this day and age with the crime rates rising cause people want an easy way around the hard times cops are in a tough position. Do we want them to catch the criminals or do we want to have the police hands tied to.
I live in Texas I have the castle docturine to protect me not all states have this.
In stead of outrage and insults look at the bigger picture.
How to we lessen the crimes taking place?
How do we make sure our local law enforcement is doing everything they can with in legal limits to do their jobs?
How do we make sure our officers are not suffering mental fatigue due to little officers on the job?
How do we as citizens make our own communties safer?
When you can answer these you will solve half the problems occuring with in police departments today.
Our society needs to step up and take action to make our homes,towns and cities safe again instead of relying on just the cops to do it but we need to do it within the law.
Capt Turk
It’s interesting that my local radio and tv stations have been running an ad about the “100 Days of Summer”.
The basic premise is that the law is watching you everywhere you go and if you speed, are drunk or not using your safety belt they will find you and they will take you down.
Nothing to be parinoid about there.
Paranoid that is-I had an Ozzy moment there.
FUCK THE POLICE. FUCK, FUCK, FUCK THE POLICE
Karen…..
You have a good point. We need to take it on ourselves to make our home towns and cities safe again.
The only way to do that is to take all authority for administering the “law” away from the state, and give it back to the citizens. State controlled “law enforcement” is despotism. An allegation of a crime committed by the state, (or minions of the state) will never be fairly judged by the state. It is like having a student of law grade his own performance.
I know from experience that the state will never admit wrong doing, as it would weaken their grip of fear they have on all of us.
Not to forget about the victimless crimes in the “war on Drugs” and other non-sense dreamed up by politicians to line the pockets of certain select segments of society.
Abolish the state. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again:
Peace and prosperity will return to America when the last politician is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
A perfect society would necessarily be an Atheist Anarchy.
Icy Biker,
In response to your comment, it is no reason to move out of the UpSA. If I saw any chance that staying in the USA and working to change things would have any effect, I would still be there.
The sheeple of the USA have become so complacent, and brain washed, there is likely nothing that will change during my lifetime. You look at the elections and see the same crooks being elected time after time. You see laws being passed by our elected officials that are blatantly unconstitutional. The checks and balances of the government have been eroded to the point government has gotten completely out of control. Only lip service is paid to the bill of rights. Laws are made that literally turn everyone into a criminal. We are robbed of our property, our wages, and our right to live as we wish, by the very people we elect to govern us. We allow the government to disarm us, and take away our ability to defend ourselves.
People accept almost anything, as long as they are promised they will be safe. People believe the lies and promises that the politicians spout to get elected, and then do nothing when it turns out to be nothing but lies and empty promises, business as usual.
Sadly I see no change in the near future. It will have to get so bad people finally revolt, and it will end up in civil war. That, I don’t see happening anytime in the near future. I’m too old, too few resourses, and in too bad of health to stay and fight. The only effective thing I can do is remove myself from the county. That at least deprives the politicians of my little bit of income. I can’t vote, so I have no say in who gets elected. A deputy sheriff took that right away from me 40 years ago when he put a .357 in my ear and threatened to kill me if I didn’t plead guilty to a crime I didn’t commit. I had witnessed him murder three people in cold blood, just before he threatened me, and my only thought was getting through the ordeal with my life. During my life as a merchant mariner, I’ve had numerous encounters with cops. At least 99% of them have been to my detriment. None for any crime I commited. Only crimes that the cops thought I was involved in, or when the victim of a crime. Very rarely have my rights respected. I have NEVER talked back to a cop, or been verbably abusive. I have always cooperated with their orders. Never physically resisted in anyway. Still, I’ve been beaten. Had my face slammed into the hood of a car and my nose broken. Been threatened with arrest, or physically assaulted by them, when I refused to talk to them without a lawyer present. I’ve had my home broken into in the middle of the night by a gang of cops. Dragged out of bed and held up against a wall with a gun to my head. My wife refused to be allowed to put clothing on. My home searched, with no warrant, or explanation. Nothing but threats of violence if I questioned what was happening.
You wonder where all this came from? The fact that because of an out of control deputy, 40 years ago, and because I used to ride a motorcycle. In the eyes of the cops, I am less than human. My rights mean nothing to them. They feel they have the right to be judge, jury, and executioner. I’ve been convicted of no crime in over 40 years, and had no record before that. It’s been almost 20 years since I’ve even had a traffic ticket. I hold a 3000 ton oceans masters license. Am college educated. Hold an advanced class amateur radio operators license. Have had a secret security clearance with the federal government, am a land owner. I’ve held a steady job all my life, with responsibilty for numerous lives and millions of dollars worth of equipment. The cops STILL treat me like a low life scum bag.
Has all this made me a cop hater? Yes, definitely. I would more likely call a crack head for help than a cop. At least I would have a chance to defend myself against a crack head.
Sorry if this turned into a bit of a rant, but at least now you have a bit of a window on why i left the UpSA.
Capt. Turk……
I completely understand where you’re coming from brother. I myself have considered moving to Argentina, but I lack the resources.
Also I need to state additionally that there’s nothing wrong with moving out. It is not….I say again, NOT a cop out to do so. It’s known throughout the free world as “voting with your feet”. I applaud your decision to do so, and if my circumstances were different, I would certainly join you.
The fact is though, (for me and millions of others) that may not be an option. Voting in government elections is frivolous, and a complete waste of time. In this article by Stewart Browne, http://www.strike-the-root.com/91/browne/browne4.html he talks about the viability of succession, and explains the way to accomplish it. Contrary to what indoctrinated sheeple think, it is not treasonous to do so, and in fact is the most American thing you can do in the face of tyranny and despotism.
Will it be easy? Of course not, but that’s how our country was born, and the only way it can be born again.
Using a fascist system to try and eradicate a fascist system is a complete waste of time and energy. We need to take our consent away from the self serving politicians and “law enforcement” morons, and give it back to the private sector where it belongs. The free markets will someday be re-instituted and the face of insurance companies and law enforcement alike will be controlled by the ACTUAL will of the people, by their willingness to HIRE this private company or that, base on the quality of service.
Again sir, I applaud and support your decision to do what you did, and only wish I could do the same. Unfortunately for me, I will have to stay and fight.
I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees.
Remember Ben Franklin’s assertion that: “those who would trade a little liberty for a little security, deserve neither and will loose both”.
Best regards to you and yours.
@Christopher Martin – I moved to Switzerland.
this is why everyone hates and fears all cops… we don’t know the names of these cops we just know that cops who like to sodomize people and threaten genital mutilation are on the street still on duty and they could be any cop because we don’t know
so next time I’m stopped by a cop I will scream in fear and run fearing rape, I’ll probably get shot for doing so too
This Police Officer should get a medal for showing the bad guy who is the boss! While he was holding the Taser on the guy he should have been yelling “WHO’S THE BOSS?” until the guy said “YOU ARE”. People have no respect for Police Officers anymore and the Police need to show these thugs who is the boss. If they don’t learn, then they should get a really good Tasering and then the next time they encounter a Police Officer they will know who is the boss.
Bubba
The police should be made aware of who the victim is, and that the victim is being abused. People need to be aware that police are sometimes abusers. Abuse is abuse, whether it is done by police or somebody else. Nobody likes their boss. That’s just human nature, except maybe for a few power jerks who think that authority is all that matters.
Bubba should have the scenario that he described happen to him, until he gets the concept of “Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law” through his thick skull.
A judge couldn’t sentence a convicted felon to a tasing, but Bubba wants officers on the streets to punish people that way, so that baad officers get undeserved respect.
JMNSHO
Bubba …….. go home son, your mommy’s calling….
The police are public servants, paid from our taxes, given legal powers greater than our own–the trade off from that is that they’re held to higher standards, given greater responsibility, and–like the ironically named conservative realist and his ilk point object so much to–we need to have the legal and technological means to monitor them very closely to make sure they live up to these higher standards, or at least don’t violate them so grossly. When a certain greasy President of the United States–another tax funded, powerful public servant–embarassed himself and his office with his personal life, I doubt many you so-called conservatives were protesting when us “leftiest libertarians” were asserting our right to scrutinize every bit of evidence against him and every procedural step in his punishment.
Bubba, you seem to be confusing fear and respect. And raping suspects will probably earn cops–even the ones not directly involved–a healthy aura of fear. Yes, fear probably makes a cops jobs easier in a lot of situations. It’s why most people are very careful when they get pulled over for as little as a parking ticket. It’ll probably stop some of the more timid petty criminals from trying to run–like Chris Rock said, if you make the cops chase you, they’re bringing and ass-kicking with them. But it’s not all good. If you’ve got a gun, but would otherwise surrender peacefully, and remember that cops sometimes sodomize suspects “due to poor training” and get away with it, you just might decide to shoot your way out instead. The apologists like to point out how cops help when someone is the victim of crime–well, how well do you think they can investigate a rape or a robbery if every potential witness is so afraid of police excesses that they’d rather stay under the radar and not come forward?
Respect, on the other hand is harder to earn. Cops earn that by doing their jobs professionally and competently no matter who they’re dealing with.
You idiot apologists make the straw man argument that complains about police excesses “wanting to live in anarchy.” Going to such a trite fallacy simply proves your own lack of intelligence. Very few of us think we’d be better off living without law enforcement–what we want is BETTER, ACCOUNTABLE law enforcement, because living in a society where a small elite live above the rules is almost as bad as living without rules at all.
One problem is that local prosecutors, who work closely with the police, may be discouraged from pushing to punish offending cops, so the idiot apologists will be surprised to find that I actually support expanding police powers, in one particular area. IAB needs to be centralized at the state, if not the federal level, in an agency that is well funded enough to attract well vetted, well qualified candidates, pay them what they deserve, and oversee their activities with complete accountability and transparency. More importantly, give them broad powers to break the wall of silence and watch the watchmen effectively. Like a prominent conservative President said, ‘Trust, but verify.’
@Deputy Sherrif:
“I am a Christian and serve the Lord Jesus Christ first and foremost. Second, I serve the citizens whom I am paid to serve. God Bless.”
What the fuck?? This is what is wrong with religion. Apparently a Jewish Zombie is more important to you than the safety of your citizens. That’s fine for any other mouth-breather out there, but not for a LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENT. Go join Blackwater if you have no loyalty to the citizens or this country.
Yes, I called your Lord and Savior a Jewish Zombie. Anything that rises from the grave is a zombie as far as I’m concerned.
Another thing, how would any of you feel if someone said, “I am a Muslim and serve the prophet Allah first and foremost. Second, I serve the citizens whom I am paid to serve. Salam Alaikum.” People would be lining up to hurl rocks at this person. But because Zombie Jesus is totally cool with everyone, nobody cares.
Religion is far more evil than anything else out there…
Karen! If you are going to put on the appearance of being intelligent, then at least learn your basic grammar, spelling, and punctuation!!
Blackula, and Ickybiker, you guys ROCK!!!
What is it about about being a cop that turns them into S&M homos?
I’ve been into martial arts for three decades and I’ve never had the need to fondle an opponents genitalia or insert anything into their anus. Cops and soldiers that do so are closet homos getting off sexually and should be charged with rape.
And that goes for Xe (Blackwater’s new name) and their Gay Pedophile “Christian” Mercenaries and their raping little boys. Turn on the international news. There’s a reason everyone hates us.
The problem with Boise is it’s a fairly small city, with a police force full of ‘roid-raging bulldogs who came up from California and aren’t used to being bored from the lack of real crime. It’s incredibly common to see three, sometimes as many as five police cruisers at traffic stops. All for a city full of computer-engineers and mormons.
Reading stories like these make me really and truly thankful that I was not born in the USA.
In New Zealand:
-We don’t have batshit crazy gun laws, so our police don’t need to carry guns on they’re person (though they do carry weapons in a secured locker of their cruisers).
-We didn’t think tazers are too necessary, but have tried them. Jury is still out on whether or not we will adopt them.
-Our Police are a centralised agency. No jurisdiction issues. Level of training is uniform for all police officers.
-Police officers are given incentives to up skill, specifically in programming (cyber crime), languages, and criminal law. A sizeable portion of our ex officers have gone on to become barristers.
Oh and we have universal healthcare
.
Emigrate to NZ where life is good (apart from the social injustices we heaped upon the native population until ~1950. We’re doing our best to make up for that now.)
This makes me sick to my stomach. That cop should be forced down and the same thing done to him. Disciplined him my ass, he should have been fired.
I have been writing about this subject about tasers for a long time. I believe cops are as a whole are bad people. Why would a good person become a cop? These are people with an axe to grind. I write often on thier abuse, here are some examples:
http://americaspeaksink.com/?s=taser
http://americaspeaksink.com/2009/01/murder-in-oakland/
http://americaspeaksink.com/2009/07/too-many-laws/
Stories of sodomy…well…a knot in my stomach…I feel sick…I noticed this article posted on some guys blog, his blog was titled “F— the Police” so, needless to say, I didn’t take it very seriously. But to follow the link here…this is just beyond horrible/ridiculous/terrible/any number of negative adjectives. I don’t really know what to say…
The sadistic persons threatening behavior will often escalate to interpersonal violence if he or she thinks that the person being subordinated is resisting control or is no longer intimidated.
Explosive sadistics react suddenly with verbal abuse and violence. It appears as if they reach a threshold of tolerance and then respond rapidly and violently against what they consider “safe” targets, that is, ones that cannot retaliate. Explosive sadistic types are hypersensitive to any hint of betrayal by those with whom they have relationships and they explode with rage when their feelings of shame reach intolerable levels.
In contrast spineless sadistics have predominately avoidant personality disorder features. These individuals are essentially highly insecure and they have a “strike first” attitude to counter their insecurities and feelings of powerlessness. They also hypothesize that spineless types take out their aggression and hostility on especially defenseless or helpless targets.
According to Million and Davis, the enforcing Sadistic Personality Disorder type has obsessive-compulsive features. They sublimate their hostility by enforcing rules, often in a demanding and authoritarian manner that allows no dissent or even rational objection. They may see themselves as defenders of justice or correctness, but it often is a mask to hide their basically cruel and hostile nature. They may be typified by the “hanging” judge and the “mean” cop.
Tyrannical sadistic types have depressive and paranoid personality disorder features. Million and Davis propose that they are perhaps the most frightening and pathological of all four types. Tyrannical types are cruel and absolutely inhumane. The often instigate and carry out the most verbally and physically abusive sadistic acts on other people and animals and will also direct others to carry out these acts.
Like most other personality disorders, personas with Sadistic Personality Disorder typically do not see any problems with their behavior and in fact usually see the positive outcomes of getting what they want.
read the full article below:
http://books.google.com/books?id=1Y0_UwGdakcC&pg=PT161&lpg=PT161&ots=ZZbG5Dfbqc&dq=cops+personality+disordered&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html
I can’t understand how any member of this dishonorable profession can show their face in public. Well, what goes around comes around, so don’t be surprised if another gang of pigs get blown away at some coffee shop. Good riddance.
Jesus people, breath. The officer did not literally sodomize the guy. He was threatening the guy to keep him for continuing to fight. Would you rather he continue to be in a physical confrontation with the guy? It was a threat and it was effective. WHen you are dealing with a violent subject, I think using some rough language is acceptable.
Well, Johnny boy, I would think that using that as a threat would have quite the opposite effect to your stated desired outcome. Someone threatening to shove something up my ass is NOT going to get me to calm down and fight less, rather it would make me try all the harder to get away from the crazy a$$ SOB.
JL,
The guy had burn marks on the inside of his ass cheek. You don’t get that just from threats.
@Johnny Law
You are wrong. The suspect was taunted and tasered while handcuffed and being held down the the weight of the officers almost resulting in his asphyxiation. The reason he was continuing to thrash was that he was suffocating under the weight of the officers. He was pleading for them to let him up so he could breathe.
Please read the Boise City Police Ombudsman Report at:
http://www.boiseombudsman.org/InvestigativeReports/2009InvReports/09_0014PublicReport.pdf
You can hear the audio of the incident at:
http://media.idahostatesman.com/smedia/2009/07/22/17/BPD_IA_July2009_Audio.source.prod_affiliate.36.mp3
In addition, the officers failed to identify themselves as police before forcing the door open. Once the suspect saw they were officers he offered no other resistance.
Tasing someone who is already cuffed and restrained almost to asphyxiation while being taunted with more is torture pure and simple.
While the officers were unprofessional, they did not stick their tasers into his ass and “sodomize” him. It keeps getting said here but that didn’t happen.
Since there was a struggle getting in, it is reasonable to think there would be one once they got him down. The taser threats were used to keep him from fighting. It apparently worked because he was complaint after that. As the report indicates, “According to Officer #6, this threat seemed to calm the Complainant down.”
He wasn’t asphyxiated because as the officer in the report said, if you are yelling that means you can breath.
Sure this whole thing sounds bad to the delicate types out there and the officers could have handled it better but things go down fast when you are fighting in the middle of a doorway. No need to imply the taser was used like a plunger.
It is troubling that the officer denies causing the taser burn on the butt cheek. I’m thinking that he did taser him there in the struggle and either didn’t remember or tried to cover it up because the threats made it look bad. If that is the case, he needs to be punished.
However once again, there was no sodomy being done with a taser.
This excerpt from the report hardly makes it sound like a CIA torture session.
From the report:
Officer #1, Officer #2, Officer #3, and Officer #4 believed that the Complainant knew they were the police and that he was deliberately resisting them in order to prevent them from entering the house. This initial misunderstanding is important because it may have contributed to the officers’ belief that the Complainant’s resistance, which began at the door in response to their attempts to enter, continued once they gained entry. Officer #1, Officer #4, and Officer #3 reported that, once they came through the door, the Complainant pushed against them, had to be forced to the floor, and would not comply with their commands to put his hands behind his back.
Officer #3 reported that he believed that the Complainant had deliberately resisted the officers’ attempts to enter the residence. From Officer #3’s perspective, the Complainant resisted mightily at the door and continued this resistance once the police gained entry. He believed that the Complainant had to be forcibly pushed to the floor, and that the Complainant resisted the officers’ attempts to pull his arms out from under him so that he could be handcuffed. According to Officer #3, he placed the Taser in the small of the Complainant’s back and delivered an eight-second cycle in drive stun mode in order to overcome the Complainant’s resistance.
Despite the fact that it was later determined that the Complainant was unaware that the police were at the door, it was reasonable, at the time, for Officer #3 to believe that the Complainant
Ombudsman’s Report – Complaint Investigation and Findings
July 13, 2009
had intentionally resisted the officers at the front door. While the Complainant reported that he went to the floor himself in response to the officers’ commands, the officers were also pushing him against the wall and to the floor. It may be that, even as the Complainant was trying to put himself on the floor, the officers were pushing him down. In any case, it is obvious that the Complainant was given very little time to comply with the commands to get on the floor. The entire process happened very quickly. The officers had momentum on their side as they pushed through the door, and no doubt were upon the Complainant before he had time to react. Officer #3 perceived that the Complainant did not voluntarily get on the floor, that he had to be pushed down. Officers were pulling at the Complainant’s arms in order to handcuff him. Seeing what he interpreted as resistance, Officer #3 used his Taser to gain cooperation from the Complainant.
@Johnny Law
Because officers have never lied on or embellished a report, and it’s always absolutely true.
And it’s totally a coincidence that he made that threat and there’s a TASER burn on the INSIDE of his ass cheek. He didn’t REALLY sodomize him, he just attempted and failed to enter the sphincter. Sure, that makes it totally OK.
Then again, we already know from your own actions that you yourself don’t think non-cops have any rights, and act as if you’re the one wronged when you do wrong yourself.
Why couldn’t you apologize to the photographer whose photograph you used without permission, instead of insulting her and pretending like you did nothing wrong?
Why are you too much of a coward to answer this question?
Why should anyone listen to you about anything until you do?
“He didn’t REALLY sodomize him”
Thank you Mike for agreeing with me. You finally understand one of my posts. Maybe there is hope for you after all. I see that you still have trouble staying on topic though.
Cops are corrupt, lying shitsacks who protect their own at any cost. Far too many are headcase veterans and/or amped up on steroids.
Research the adventures of cop-busting teen Brett Darrow, who has covertly documented the behavior of the average lawless pig, much to their dismay.
@Johnny Law
Ah, too stupid to catch on to sarcasm AND too much a coward to admit to any wrongdoing.
@Johnny Law
And don’t worry
http://bit.ly/johnnylaw
We’ll keep that link around just for you, so people know what sort of lying, abusive bastard they’re dealing with every time you post. ;D
I get a kick out of someone like you calling me a coward.
Keep barking little doggy. It’s very entertaining.
Sorry Carlos. Don’t mean to turn your comments section into a flame war. No disrespect intended towards you.
@Johnny Law
Why, because you hide behind a fake name, so you don’t have to risk your real name? I use mine, why can’t you?
It’s not a flame war, I’m just holding you accountable, for a subject core to this entire blog:
Why couldn’t you apologize to the photographer whose photograph you used without permission, instead of insulting her and pretending like you did nothing wrong?
Why are you too much of a coward to answer this question?
Why should anyone listen to you about anything until you do?
-and-
Where do you get off even commenting in a blog about photographer’s rights when you demonstrably abuse those rights, and then refuse to acknowledge it?
I’m sure Carlos will say something if he’s annoyed, but I don’t think he’d let someone off the hook without answering questions like this, either.
I use a fake name because as a cop, any little sensitive liberal can cause trouble by complaining how I hurt their little feelings. My department would probably tell me to shut it down if you starting crying to them (which you would based on your previous crying).
Police live under different rules than bike couriers. You can post anything you want and that makes you an activist. A cop does the same and it is a big scandal.
Of course you already know this. It’s just easier to sit at a keyboard and scream “coward”. The sad thing is you don’t know how much you amuse me.
About Johnny Law taking the photo for his blog without permission, I don’t see that as a big deal because I do it all the time.
And people do it to my photos.
The issue seems to be that he used “courtesy of” or whatever it was, which made it seem like he got permission when he didn’t as well as the fact that he was not as supportive of the subjects in the photo as the photographer was.
I still don’t see it as a major scandal.
If he would have claimed he had taken the photo himself, then that would have been a completely different story.
Many times I come across my photos and notice that they didn’t even credit me or link to my blog. I usually send them an email and they usually credit and link to me or they remove the photo altogether.
If it’s just a blog that does it, I let it go at that. If it happens to be a major newspaper company, I would demand payment. But that hasn’t happened yet.
I use photos all the time that pertain to my stories and I always try to credit the photographer. I do this under the “Fair Use” act, which allows limited use of copyright material without obtaining permission from the owner.
Johnny Law’s decision to use the photo falls under this, in my opinion. It would be hypocritical of me to accuse him of a copyright violation just because he is a cop.
And as far as the use of the words “courtesy of”, that’s just semantics.
And as far as JL not using his real name out of fear of reprisals from people complaining to his bosses, well having been a victim of that myself, I can understand. It does happen.
And as far as you guys engaging in a flamewar, go at it. It don’t bother me at all. But I see it as something between you guys.
You guys are both men so I’m sure you can handle yourselves.
@Carlos
I’d call it fair use up until the implied permission, coupled with a false light defamation given what he wrote about the people in the photo. Yeah, if he just took it and used it is one thing, using those particular people as the objects of his hate is another.
Legalities aside, it’s still a dick move and his (lack of) response is telling about how he really thinks of other people, and of his lack of character.
@Johnny Law
Excellent excuse for you to hide behind, Johnny.
You don’t seem to get that I’m not screaming, just monstering you. Go and come back all you’d like, it’s not going away.
(I don’t know why you think I’m a bike courier, but hey.)
Sure I can post anything I want. I just somehow manage to not post hateful diatribes against entire groups of people that I have any sort of power to imprison or kill. Greater power, greater responsibility.
But you don’t get that.
And then you don’t understand why you’re such a bad example.
Which I have to admit is entertaining for me, because every time you respond, you give everyone more evidence of just what a bad example you are.
I don’t give two shits about what kind of example you think I am. I also don’t care what some street rat loving Seattle hippy photographer thinks either. You can bang your keyboard in impotent rage till your balls finally drop. Makes no difference to me.
What you call hateful diatribe, I call an informed opinion based in actual real-life experience. Maybe one day you will get some yourself.
I think you are just a sad little man trying make yourself feel better by trolling on the net. Woof woof…
You’re ranting and calling names – and providing entertainment for all on the internet – just like we knew you would, Johnny.
Keep up the good work!
But you’re still not man enough to simply apologize and move on.
Mike said,
“You’re ranting and calling names – and providing entertainment for all on the internet ”
and
“Why are you too much of a coward…”
and
“Ah, too stupid to catch on to sarcasm AND too much a coward…”
and
“lying, abusive bastard”
LOL
Pot, meet Kettle. Woof, woof…
@Johnny
All provable statements, Johnny.
Or are you now at least denying the actions you’ve taken?
Remember, evidence: http://bit.ly/johnnylaw
Why couldn’t you apologize to the photographer whose photograph you used without permission, instead of insulting her and pretending like you did nothing wrong?
Why are you too much of a coward to answer this question?
Why should anyone listen to you about anything until you do?
Johnny – You said “He wasn’t asphyxiated because as the officer in the report said, if you are yelling that means you can breath.”
That is utter and complete BULLSHIT. That is a lie that the military and many police departments continue to “teach” to their new recruits, despite ample medical and scientific evidence to refute it. If you can pass any air at all, you can make noise (including yelling). If your chest is compressed sufficiently enough to make it DIFFICULT, yet not impossible to breathe (ie. you can still pass air but not of sufficient quantity) for a long enough time, you WILL die. How much compression and how long a time? Well that depends on each individual. But the time is on the order of a couple to a few minutes.
In case you weren’t aware, many times a person having a severe asthma attack can still talk (albeit usually in very short, explosive syllables), up until the point they pass out from lack of sufficient oxygen. Chest compression has the same effect.
“I think you are just a sad little man trying make yourself feel better by trolling on the net.” Kettle, meet pot.
Kylie,
I’m not a doctor (and I doubt you are either) so I can’t really refute what you posted. I can only tell you what I have been taught. If that is incorrect, then is it the fault of the officers or is the liability on the department that taught them? You would think that if that is in fact incorrect information, it would have been corrected by now. That is why I have my doubts about your statements.
However I do commend you for addressing the topic and not going off on sad little rants like some posters.
Anyone hear a poodle barking in the background?
@Johnny
Aw, Johnny, are you annoyed?
What’s the matter, presented with conflicting information, you first have to make sure the responsibility gets shifted to the department? Then questioning how the department could be wrong after all this (subjective) time?
Then it’s a simple matter of blind faith in “the department.” You still get to think yourself infallible and as a bonus don’t even have to think about it! “The department” should have fixed it by now!
You know, kind of like how you totally sidestep the apology thing, that would mean you’d have to admit you’re wrong.
Who’s annoyed? I’m having a debate here. That’s what grown-ups do. Focus Mike and re-read my comment. It actually addresses the points of the previous comments.
If you are taught something by your department and then it turns out that the technique or whatever is incorrect, I would think that the department is liable. Does that not seem logical to you? Why would the officer be held at fault for that? Would the “reasonable person” standard apply? Or would you expect the officer to ignore everything taught at the police academy and just do whatever they personally feel?
Let’s look at the carotid choke/restraint police used to be taught. It was widely taught by all major departments for years. Unfortunately, it was found to be too dangerous to keep using in these sensitive times. If used properly and within department policy prior to being banned and someone got hurt, who got in trouble? Typically the fault fell on the department for teaching a bad tactic, not the officer.
In this case (talking while not being able to breath), I haven’t heard anything that conclusively contradicts what I have been trained.
Would any adults care to address it?
Johnny – No, I’m not a doctor, but that doesn’t mean I can’t read medical information and understand it. Maybe you should try it sometime. You might just learn that some of your “facts” in fact aren’t. Doubt me all you want, but medical info is readily available if you just look.
I guess it is just totally unreasonable for the person making a claim to provide some kind of link or reference to back up said claim?
How silly of me.
And in a classic troll move, Johnny demands links or reference for other commenters’ claims while providing none of his own!
Let’s see if he follows that up with the tried-and-true Moving Goalposts, shall we?
Sadly, I’m agreeing with Johnny on this one. You are trolling pretty desperately there, Michaelk42.
Please read post #33 above.
Johnny Law, would a reference paper from the FBI web site be authoritative enough?
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/1996/may966.txt
You can also find info on Wikipedia under asphyxia and positional asphyxia.
@ JL & Mike
I think both you guys are hilarious.
JL seems to take the position that cops are all under appreciated denizens of justice, who only do violence when it’s justified by training standards. This is very convenient, since it removes all responsibility of the donut grazers to actually THINK about what they are doing, or attempting to put it in any moral context. “I was simply following orders”, is the battle cry of the brainless minions of the state.
Mike, you’re just as bad. We can all see that JL is purposely dodging the picture question, so what? If this thread were about picture usage, there would be happier days in Boise. Stick to the issue Mike, which is the growing incidence of police brutality in Boise, and across America. Your pointless badgering is starting to make you look like an ass.
The real issue (which I have seen no one address) is the fact that law enforcement is in the hands of the GOVERNMENT to begin with. There is not enough room here to post all the reasons why this is wrong headed and immoral, but the best book I’ve found to explain how free market law enforcement works, is H.H. Hoppe’s “Democracy: The God That Failed”, which you can find here at the Mises Institute,
http://mises.org/store/product.aspx?ProductID=240
Law enforcement is a good, just like farm products, insurance, cars, clothing, etc. and should be controlled by free markets (the people of a given society) and not the government. Only through fair competition for the market share (not the current coercive monopoly) will justice ever be enjoyed.
Peace
Much better. Thanks for the link. Must have missed #33 with all the other postings.
I am familiar with the problem of positional asphyxia. I am pretty sure that it is standard teaching at most departments. We were taught in the academy to never “hog-tie” a prisoner if it was possible to subdue in another way. We were also taught to sit them up as soon as possible.
However as the FBI report says, “At present, no satisfactory alternatives to hog-tied and prone
restraint exist. Police administrators who wish to prevent deaths that occur during hog-tied restraint should not authorize use of the maneuver. Yet, experience shows that sometimes no other type of restraint will control a violent, aggressive subject.”
I didn’t see any mention in that report that a person who can’t breath can still talk though. Regardless, I think the question is was it necessary to get the guy on the ground to control him, how long did it last and how much pressure was used to do it? In my experience, he is held down until he is calm enough to be sat up.
Really, the only thing about this case that bothers me is the denial of tasing the guy on the ass. If he had to tase the guy there to control him, fine. Do it and man up to it. If you did it and realized that it may have been over the top, you still need to man up to it. Things done in the heat of a struggle can be understood. Lying about it after the fact cannot be tolerated.
I have no problem with the threats because it was a form of verbal control. I have personally threatened to break my baton over someone’s head if they tried to get up after a prolonged struggle. Now a baton strike to the head is deadly force and I would not use it in that situation. However it sure got the guy’s attention and he stayed on the ground until more units showed up to help put him in cuffs. Call it a crass form of verbal judo but it works.
ickybiker wrote,
“Law enforcement is a good, just like farm products, insurance, cars, clothing, etc. and should be controlled by free markets (the people of a given society) and not the government. Only through fair competition for the market share (not the current coercive monopoly) will justice ever be enjoyed.”
Not sure I understand what you are getting at here. Are you advocating vigilante justice? Or maybe communities hiring out private security?
I’m not trying to be dense but could you clarify how you would recommend handling crimes, punishment, and crime prevention?
@ JL
Sure, be glad to.
First, I absolutely do not advocate vigilante justice. This is what we are seeing more of with our state sponsored version.
As I stated previously, it’s not really the appropriate forum for a treatise, (which is why I suggested the book) but I’ll try and put it in the proverbial nutshell.
Yes, Law enforcement, like any other service, is simply a good that people deem of value…..but lets go a little farther, the laws themselves.
Our constitution strictly prohibits the government from certain activities, such as invasion of privacy in one’s home, arbitrary confiscation of private property, and moreover, making any laws that do not follow a strict set of guidelines set forth in the constitution, and the bill of rights. Therein lies 50% of the problem.
Our government was originally set up to do two things: Protect our property rights, and protect our liberty….nothing else. Since however, through the misuse of a system which the public is largely ignorant of, it would take someone like you or me 30 years to read through every law in the US code. Even you will have to admit that MOST of the inmates in prison today in America, are of the non-violent nature…..tax evasion, drugs, non-payment of liens, contempt, etc. I won’t even address the immorality of this perversion of tax expenditure other than to say that the price of the alleged offense is not paid by the inmate, but the society that pays the 1K per day or whatever it is to house these “criminals”. Moreover, the very idea that anyone owes a “debt to society” is a gross perversion of the concept of justice. Anyone who does violence to anyone else, owes a debt to the person he did violence to PERIOD! What we do instead, is we make the taxpayers pay for the crime, while the inmate gets a college education. What a deal.
Again, I see the other half of the problem to be government law enforcement.
The first issue here is cost. Cost is never an issue in anything done by the government. The debt is never borne by those writing the rules, but those the rules are imposed on. More theft of personal wealth (taxes) or simply borrow it and fleece future generations. Guess who payed for those tasers? The public whom they are used on.
To the meat—–
In a free society, people are still bound to millenniums old natural laws against violent crimes, that precede even the ten commandments, by 1000’s of years. People will have the option of whether or not to insure themselves against any losses, as they do today. The difference, would be that without government regulations, insurance companies could be much more competitive, and offer coverage base on risk. They also do this today, but with no barriers to entry in the market (gov regs) there would be more companies to choose from, and they would have to necessarily offer a good service, or they would fail…..much unlike the current bail-out society we live in today.
Suffer a loss with no insurance? Well, it should be a no-brainer. You could however, hire a private law enforcement office to investigate, and subsequently prosecute your case through a private court.
Can’t afford to hire the LI office? Well, at least you would have had the right to protect your own property if you had been in your toes. This is not to say that going after the offenders yourself with the intention of doing harm would be acceptable either, that would always be viewed as aggression, and morally wrong, and prosecutable.
What I have written here barely touches on the complexity of this question, and I encourage you to read Hoppe’s book.
Would this create a perfect society? Absolutely not. That is a fantasy. It would however make for a much safer and more prosperous America.
Peace…
@JL
Try this one:
http://pso.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/pso1600/Sec%203%20Positional%20Asphyxia.htm
@JL
I just realized in my last post, I left out the last part of the sketch, to answer the rest of your question…..Prison ownership and administration.
As insurance companies would be the sole guarantors of all losses, they would naturally reserve the right to extract restitution from offenders not willing, or unable to pay for any damage they caused. This would include “slave” or prison labor, which could be hired out to make fire trails, clean roadways and such. As there would be no “government contracts”, these “workers would only be hired by private contractors (as subs) thereby not having the corrupt negative economic effects of the prison chain gangs of the 30’s and 40’s. Further, as it is the government’s only purpose to protect personal and property rights, (yes, prisoners still have human rights) it could conceivably have the ability to audit the activities of these “chain gangs”, (as a component of a broader system to include private courts, checks and balances) inasmuch as to insure that the activities did not exceed their intended purpose.
In short, prisons would be owned and operated by insurance companies. The incentive to incarcerate large numbers would be very limited, since they would be paid for by insurance premiums, and contract work done by prisoners.
Again, the word “simple” doesn’t fit anywhere in this scenario, but it is the solution, and by creating prosperity and wealth rather than destroying it through draconian government action, there will naturally be less incentive for crime. It will never completely go away, but if we can just change our thinking from emotion and fear, to logic and reason, we may just have a chance. That however, gets into government education, which is a whole other essay.
Pay no attention to the man behind the plate, keep your eye on the ball.
IB
@IcyBiker
So when someone claiming to be a cop that openly mistreats people shows up, we should let him off because we’re talking about cops mistreating people?
One thing is certain: Johnny Law is exactly the sort of person that should not be in law enforcement.
I can sum this one up, it’s real simple: These cops are fucked in the head (see comment #140) so they tried to fuck this man in the ass with their tasers.
@Michaelk42
I’m not quite sure what you are getting at, but If you are suggesting that the unauthorized use of a photo constitutes a “crime”, then you are obviously not part of the solution.
My contention, is that law enforcement, like any other valued service can, and should be provided by the free market, and not by government edict. The markets provide all that is needed to determine price, quality, and quantity of any service that through voluntary action, people deem of value.
As for anyone “claiming to be a cop”, fraud was and always will be considered a crime, inasmuch as it does damage (physical or economic) to the offended. I a free market, where customer approval is king, this sort of thing would not be the norm.
Can you demonstrate where JL did physical or economic damage to anyone by anything that he posted?
You asked a great question, and I hope I answered it.
@Icybiker
Are you unfamiliar with IP infringement, the fact he was required to takedown after the DMCA notice was filed, and false light under defamation law?
I only say claiming to be a cop, as we have no way to actually verify it. Can’t say reliably one way or the other.
“Can you demonstrate where JL did physical or economic damage to anyone by anything that he posted?”
This was not required for initial DMCA takedown, and isn’t the only criteria under defamation tort law.
But breaking the law isn’t so much the point as callous disregard for a “regular” person’s rights, and I don’t mean just the improper use – I am also referring to the grade-school bully response. It just shows his Cop Superiority mindset. He demands that he be treated with respect, but he obviously doesn’t think he should be required to do the same for others.
“I also don’t care what some street rat loving Seattle hippy photographer thinks either.”
Is not one of the ways an adult human being responds to a legitimate, legal request to stop using property without consent.
I’m sure he especially resents the fact that he HAD to do as the photographer wished, under threat of DMCA violation and Google pulling his post if not his blog.
http://www.google.com/support/blogger/bin/request.py?hl=en&contact_type=blogger_dmca_infringment
Of course I know he can’t answer the question. He’d have to not only admit he was wrong, but that he got busted for it, and that “some street rat loving Seattle hippy photographer” made him change his blog and he couldn’t do a damn thing about it.
@Michaelk42
I certainly will agree with you that JL did use very hateful and prejudicial language in both his portrayal of the subjects in the photo, as well as in his response to the criticism he received. That however, is really his only offense: Being a Dick.
While reprehensible, it does not constitute a crime, it only damages his credibility.
Your claims about “IP” only serve to illustrate my earlier point about the “law” itself. The government has no authority to issue any edicts concerning any mythical notions that “ideas” constitute tangible property. Ideas are the sole property of the ones in possession of them. In other words, you are the sole owner of your own mind. Once you receive an idea, you own it, as long as you can remember it. The only way you can protect it, is not share it.
IP is a myth generated by parasitic non-producers who’s goal is to share one or two good ideas, works of art, inventions, etc., and then cease producing, thus deriving “residual” income from labors of others who reproduce “their” idea.
That sort of brings us to the issue of “rights” vs “privileges”.
Governments (or “lawmakers” of any flavor) cannot grant “rights”, only “privileges”.
Rights are a natural condition of humanity that have been recognized since the beginning of civilization, eg: Rights to: self defense, private property, security in one’s own home, etc.
In other words, no man has any authority to aggress against another man for any reason….period. That covers all acts of aggression, from violent crime to fraud.
Should JL apologize for his actions? Absolutely. Should he be held liable for legal judgment? Hell no. Once something is posted on the internet, it becomes the property of the world.
This is also a good thing because it should make people think before they post libelous drivel that will only damage their own credibility in an educated society.
To JL: Lighten up man. We’re not all the scum of the Earth, just really frustrated with the direction our country has been allowed to drift, and many are also victims of public education. For more on this, I would suggest James Ostrowski’s “Government Schools are bad for you Kids: What You Need to Know”, which can be found here….
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0974925322?tag=lewrockwell&camp=14573&creative=327641&linkCode=as1&creativeASIN=0974925322&adid=0WJRYWKP43T08BA77Z78&
Also, here’s an article on LRC by James:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/ostrowski/ostrowski93.1.html
As Thomas Jefferson noted: “A Government which governs least, governs best”.
Peace
@Icybiker
“Should JL apologize for his actions? Absolutely. Should he be held liable for legal judgment? Hell no. Once something is posted on the internet, it becomes the property of the world.”
So you don’t believe in the law… therefore it doesn’t apply? I don’t think that reasoning is going to get you very far.
I’m no copyright maximalist, but even I recognize a limited-term monopoly on a work is a beneficial incentive for creation.
You also don’t seem to get that copyright doesn’t cover ideas. It covers the fixed representation of an idea.
@Michaelk42
You misunderstand me sir. I did not claim that the law doesn’t apply to me, I simply contend that the law is invalid based on moral precedent. Obviously our draconian socialist government sees that differently, since special interest parasites provide the capital needed to keep them in power.
Have you ever heard of “Nullification”? This is the natural right of the people of a society to judge the law, as well as the alleged “crime”. Here’s a breif artical by Russ Emal that explains the process:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig10/emal1.1.1.html
and another more concise definition from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_Nullification
Moreover, a jury has the natural right…..obligation really, to judge whether even a just law was applied properly. A judge will never tell you that. Any barrister attempting to inform a jury of their rights in this regard will likely be held in contempt.
<>
You clearly need to apply more thought to your posts, and perhaps even occasionally consult with reference material.
This is the definition of the term “copyright”. [from wikipedia - without permission] :
“Copyright is a form of intellectual property that gives the author of an original work exclusive right for a certain time period in relation to that work, including its publication, distribution and adaptation, after which time the work is said to enter the public domain. Copyright applies to ANY EXPESSIBLE FORM OF AN IDEA [emphasis mine] or information that is substantive and discrete and fixed in a medium. Some jurisdictions also recognize “moral rights” of the creator of a work, such as the right to be credited for the work. Copyright is described under the umbrella term intellectual property along with patents and trademarks.”
The “fixed in a medium” clause is merely acknowledgment that the idea has been expressed. Whether it has been merely spoken, or recorded in hard media is irrelevant to the fact that each person owns the content of their own mind. This is really splitting hairs, and a serious regression from the topic at hand.
We should all be able to agree that the good that has come from this particular Boise travesty, is that ideas have been shared that could possibly lead to a paradigm change in the accepted definition of social justice. Ideas are what will change our world, not force. They should be shared freely, and constantly be improved upon.
Peace
‘If you are suggesting that the unauthorized use of a photo constitutes a “crime”, then you are obviously not part of the solution.’
Icky~ We are not living in some utopian libertarian society, and we are clearly far from being an educated one. Tort laws exist for a reason; because some people arbitrarily decide that they indeed DO have the “authority to aggress against another man for any reason” . If you were a restaurant owner and someone maliciously decided to post the “idea” that your kitchen is rat infested I’m sure you’d feel differently. I doubt you’d be saying that false “idea is now the property of the world”, as it’s hard to prove a negative. The fact that this photographer did not lose business because of the lie that she’s associated with Johnny boy is irrelevant, since the intent to commit an intellectual fraud was the same. One persons opinion of the value of something does not make it so. Some of us here in the free market think that taking another persons work for the sole purpose of damaging the “price and quality” of that service {her work, reputation and blog} IS damaging to it’s overall value.
@Icybiker
I’m familiar with jury nullification & etc. That and your proposed copyright reform aren’t really what we’re on about, though.
“You clearly need to apply more thought to your posts, and perhaps even occasionally consult with reference material.”
I think I’ll stick with what I learned in Law of Public Communications if you don’t mind.
We were talking about whether or not JL broke any laws. Somehow you got into whether the laws were right or not, but you don’t seem to be saying that he didn’t, which was the point. And I believe Sara has made some excellent points on that score, as well.
@Sara
Well, you’re right about one thing, we certainly don’t live in a Utopian society, and never will.
You miss the purpose of tort law though. I’m certainly not defending the likes of JL, but what I am saying is that in order to hold him responsible for “damages”, he would have had to create some.
Your example of the restaurant is a completely different situation. The fact that no economic consequences were suffered by this photographer certainly IS relevant. If no damage was done, how could he owe any restitution beyond an apology?
Rights are a negative concept. That is to say, the issue of rights can never legitimately arise unless they are being violated. The right to self preservation, personal liberty, and to pursue what makes you happy, cannot be granted, they can only be recognized. Only “privileges” can be granted, and these are generally designed to allow a higher class to disregard the natural rights of a lower class in a tyrannical socialist system such as ours.
In your restaurant example, economic damage could possibly manifest in the form of lost revenues due to reduced traffic. Oddly, this is the tactic used by our government to steer people away from private enterprise, and toward government welfare.
This destruction of the restaurateur’s revenue flow is the actual offense (only if it can in fact be proven) not any perceived “defamation”. Any responsible restaurateur who understands human interaction would understand the old saying “any publicity is good publicity”. If the allegations of rats in the kitchen were untrue and in fact the kitchen was clean and sanitary, he would naturally seize the opportunity for some free advertisement, while showcasing his spotless modern kitchen. This would no doubt bring even more business, and futher benefit him as a “known quantity”, as opposed to another who no one knows anything about.
On the other hand, if the kitchen in this hypothetical diner is a filthy mess, and it DOES in fact have rats, justice was done. This is how the free market works, People vote with their dollars.
@Michaelk42
“I think I’ll stick with what I learned in Law of Public Communications if you don’t mind.”
Yep….”just following orders”
Peace
@Ickybiker
Wow. That’s just out there. I think you missed the point that perhaps I’ve studied a bit of reference material before.
Back to it:
“I’m not quite sure what you are getting at, but If you are suggesting that the unauthorized use of a photo constitutes a “crime”, then you are obviously not part of the solution.”
The fact that he broke the law isn’t in contention. Whether you believe this law is just or not is another discussion that does not alter this fact.
Nor does it alter the facts of what JL has done, nor does it alter the fact that he can’t deal with the fact that he got owned by “some street rat loving Seattle hippy photographer.”
“Nor does it alter the facts of what JL has done, nor does it alter the fact that he can’t deal with the fact that he got owned by “some street rat loving Seattle hippy photographer”"
LOL
You keep thinking that Mike. The way you keep obsessing even though everyone sees you making an ass of yourself is very cute. I also like the lie about me receiving a DMCA takedown notice. Never happened and it was never threatened.
Newsflash Mike, nobody cares. Nobody. Yap yap little dog.
“to hold him responsible for “damages”, he would have had to create some.”
Icky~ In this case the photographer did not sustain damages because the slander was nipped in the bud. The situation, which you seem to have a problem admitting even existed, was corrected. Had it been allowed to continue she most certainly could have sustained monetary damages. If I thought she was on good terms with the likes of Johnny, I would not buy her prints, hire her to photograph my wedding, or even want to associate with her. Additionally, if word got out to those ‘murdering street rats’ that she was friends with a cop she could’ve possibly been physically harmed. Regarding my restaurant example, you are clearly out of touch with reality. No, any publicity is not good publicity, far from it. Showcase his spotless kitchen? Right. Skeptical patrons would think he just cleaned it for show, since anybody would put their best foot forward in that situation. Earlier you chided Michael for going off topic with regards to Johnny boy but then you did the same with endless irrelevant rants about government, free market, and the list goes on. To equate someone who simply stated he believes in following very basic communication laws {some of said laws ARE, by the way, based on “moral precedents” } with the Nazi’s; “Yep….”just following orders” , makes me wonder if your grounded in reality at all. You’re trying to superimpose a million different theories onto a situation which is actually pretty clear cut. You should really lay off the psychedelics man, you’re discrediting some of your own good points. “Peace”.
@Michaelk42
Simply put, I contend that IP laws are an immoral abstraction of the idea of personal property, and should be nullified.
The issue surrounding your relentless rant on JL’s use of a picture found on the internet is not so much about the use of the picture itself, but his personal prejudice about the the subjects depicted.
I agree with you that this was wrong, so I’m not sure what you’re on about here. His hateful and uninformed off the cuff remarks are the epitome of the type of thinking that most of these donut grazers have based on their “training”. This is what has to change. He needs to apologize to all parties he offended by his remarks, and then practice thinking “out of the box”. The use of the picture itself is not the issue…..HOW he used it could possibly constitute fraud, and that would be.
If you are focusing on somebody’s “IP rights” (or rather, IP privilege) is a major departure from the main issue here, which is government tyranny, and destruction of human rights.
I doubt very much if the guy healing up from this gross abuse of power gives a crap one way or another about IP, or a photographer’s “hurt feelings”.
Peace
@Johnny Law
Well, we have only the word of the person you infringed on telling me she sent Google a notice, and your taking the content down yet denying.
You had no choice, can’t do anything about it, and all you can do now is call names and not own up to it.
You already lost. Been in your fort, killed your dudes.
@ Sara
You use a lot of “ifs”. “if it would have been allowed to continue…”, “If I thought she was on good terms with Johnny…” “If word got out to those murdering street rats…”
How do you know these are “murdering street rats”? Isn’t that a little judgmental and prejudiced on your part? You could “what if” any situation to death, but it won’t make you any safer, only more paranoid. The bottom line, is the situation did not produce any of the horrors you describe. Where’s the justification for persecution?
My “irrelevant rant” as you call it, was explained in one of my first recent posts. This is a very complex problem that has many facets. I also provided several links to books and articles which further explain my position.
You however seem to be just another “intellectual wannabe”, who, armed with your government approved education, want to believe that the government (including their law enforcement arm) has your best interests in mind. Further, you also seem to believe that ANY law “on the books” is a justifiable law.
Then in your infinite wisdom, you assume I’m on “psychedelics”, since I don’t agree with you.
You are a sad, strange little minded person, who should really expand your horizons, and study economics and human interaction. Your sense of morality is virally skewed.
Peace
Umm okay. Already lost huh? That’s news to me but since you used your smiley faces, it must be true.
Ickybiker – “I doubt very much if the guy healing up from this gross abuse of power gives a crap one way or another about IP, or a photographer’s “hurt feelings”.”
And I doubt very much if the guy healing up from this gross abuse of power gives a crap one way or the other whether the abuser got his power from ‘the government’ or a ‘free market company’. You seem to be one of those people who think that free market everything would solve all the country’s problems, but history shows that free market systems are just as corruptible as socialist ones (if not more so). Not that I’m advocating for socialism, it has problems too. But I also must say that this country is NOT socialist by any stretch of the imagination. If you think it is, then you need to go read up on what socialism really is (and no, FOX news is not an educational source).
@Kylie
“”history shows that free market systems are just as corruptible as socialist ones (if not more so). “”
What evidence from history can you show to substantiate this claim?
“”But I also must say that this country is NOT socialist by any stretch of the imagination. If you think it is, then you need to go read up on what socialism really is”"
Well, let’s see…..GM is now 60% publicly owned (against the will of the American people), our corrupt banking system, in the face of bankruptcy due to their own wreckless policies was “bailed out” by the government (against the will of the American people), and the last 20+ presidents have worked with the power elite in this country to strip away our constitution.
Not socialism? This is socialism with a capital “S”.
“Socialism refers to various theories of economic organization advocating public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with a method of compensation based on the amount of labor expended.
In other words, “publicly owned”, means government take-over. anything the government “owns”, it regulates.
There’s really no point in continuing this, as debating you is like having a battle of wits with an un-armed person. You rather make my point about public education
You’re right about one thing though, Faux News is not an educational source.
Peace
Icky~ Dude you really need to stop signing your posts “peace” when your posts prove you’re only about being right and one-upping people.
You flat out refused to respond to any of the points in my posts. Instead, you resorted to name calling and threw in over nine ad hominem attacks. Not very “peaceful” of you, is it?
Where on earth did you get the idea that I think the government has my best interests in mind and that I believe any law on the books is good? You’re pulling stuff out of thin air here just because I disagreed with one of your points.
Furthermore, I wasn’t judging those street people. In case you somehow missed it despite your highly superior education, one uses quotes when taking another’s words. I was parodying Johnny boy’s characterization of them .
And I’m sorry but if you think correct “training” and “thinking outside of the box” is going to fix some of these cops, but yet I’m the one whose “sense of morality is virally skewed”, then you have some serious deficits in your comprehension and ability to read people.
It’s probably best if you only speak to those with highly superior “non government” educations such as yourself.
Johnny Law~ “nobody cares. Nobody”.
Oh but you, the venerable Johnny Law , do care. You’ve taken valuable time away from catching those bad guys to keep responding to his “Yap yappity” little posts, so it must bother you to a degree. Never got that takedown notice? We’ll never know for sure, since you can’t prove a negative.
Could it be that a bike messenger and smelly Seattle hippy managed to get under your skin? Just a little maybe?
@Sara
Sara – Dudette
Please explain how I do not advocate peace.
Also, please address MY question, which was:
Your contention: “”history shows that free market systems are just as corruptible as socialist ones (if not more so). “”
My question: What evidence from history can you show to substantiate this claim?
And what’s up with your “Nazi” remark?
If you will climb down off your high horse liong enough to go back over my posts from the last week or so, you will find that I answered all of your questions long before you even asked them on this thread.
If you have any more I would be happy to accommodate you if you drop your whiny bitch posturing.
Peace
Icky – Dude, learn to read! *I* am the one who posted about free market systems being corruptible, not Sara. And in answer to it, all I will say is if you take a look at US history, you will see that pretty much every time an industry has been deregulated (thus making it more “free-market”), it has resulted in LESS competition and MORE monopolies, usually run by dishonest men who try to buy as many politicians as they can. And that is all you’re going to get from me on history, since I am not a history professor nor do I play one on TV.
“There’s really no point in continuing this, as debating you is like having a battle of wits with an un-armed person. You rather make my point about public education”
You got that right – and you are the un-armed person. If you need me to do your research for you and give you exact examples from history, then you haven’t studied history at all. And you proved my point for me about socialism, since the state of industry in our country as described by you does NOT fit the description of socialism as provided by you. As I said LEARN TO READ!!!!
Sara – “And I’m sorry but if you think correct “training” and “thinking outside of the box” is going to fix some of these cops, but yet I’m the one whose “sense of morality is virally skewed”, then you have some serious deficits in your comprehension and ability to read people.”
I think you’re close on this one – Icky apparently has serious deficits in his comprehension and ability to READ. People, books, comments, you name it, he apparently has trouble reading it.
@Kylie
I stand corrected. Why all the anger? Do you seriously believe that partially deregulating SOME industries constitutes free markets?
There have been very little free market activity in America since the Civil War, Thanks to Lincoln’s empire building rape of the free markets in the south. What you are calling “free markets”, certainly ARE manipulated, therefore, not free.
The term “free markets”, describes the VOLUNTARY actions between a seller and a buyer, WITHOUT any third party intervention. Our markets are not “free”, because we need to ask permission to conduct business from the state eg: Licensing, permits, bonding, etc.
All you people seem to want, are “quickie” solutions to a complex problem. You whine and cry about cops that abuse suspects, and then you dismiss a lengthy detailed response as an “irrelevant rant” and just to satisfy your whiny little self esteem problem you seem to have, that was Sara’s comment, not yours.
The subject of this article was police brutality. The reality of that is that it is not simply a matter of a bad cop getting caught, but rather an increasingly corrupt system becoming more and more exposed.
When I was asked to explain this:
“Law enforcement is a good, just like farm products, insurance, cars, clothing, etc. and should be controlled by free markets (the people of a given society) and not the government. Only through fair competition for the market share (not the current coercive monopoly) will justice ever be enjoyed.”
then this was JL’s question:
“Not sure I understand what you are getting at here. Are you advocating vigilante justice? Or maybe communities hiring out private security?
I’m not trying to be dense but could you clarify how you would recommend handling crimes, punishment, and crime prevention?”
I then proceeded to explain my position, (which is impossible to do without exploring all the interlinked components).
Then I was accused by Sara of blathering on with “irrelevant ranting”. It was only irrelevant, because she can’t understand that this is not an isolated problem, and cannot be solved by simply addressing a single issue.
@Sara
9 ad hominem attacks? Everything you’ve posted has been an attack on somebody, so I guess you’d know. I guess that’s OK for you though. I think you are an angry person, and you just need somebody to rip on.
I started this thing thinking that JL was a dick. You guys make him actually look pretty bright. My guess is that he is reading other things besides this thread.
Maybe one of the books I suggested? I don’t know, but he did ask a couple of really good questions, and I tried to answer the best I could, as briefly as possible.
As I previously stated, this is a very complex issue, and the diabolical entities that have created the world we now live in have gone to great pains (with YOUR tax dollars) to keep it that way.
I would be happy to discuss or debate this further, with anyone who actually has anything intelligent to say.
I’m really not interested in getting into a pissing match with a bunch of sheep.
Peace
Icky – “Do you seriously believe that partially deregulating SOME industries constitutes free markets?”
Do YOU seriously believe that ONE industry partially owned by the government and a second industry given money by the government constitutes socialism?
The majority of Americans (and seemingly you, too) are very confused about the definitions of and differences between socialism, fascism, Naziism, totalitarianism, communism, corporatism, Marxism, capitalism, and several other -isms as well as what constitutes a democracy and a republic.
You accuse me of being angry, but quite frankly the only thing that I have been angry about in this thread is the perpetuation of a dangerous myth about asphyxiation, and the attitude of the arresting officer in this case. Now that I think of it, you have accused several people of being angry. Perhaps you are projecting your own anger on others?
Icky – one more question for you (ok, several actually) – who would police your free-market police? In other words, what would keep them from “competing” by trying to kill each other off or selling “protection”, like mobsters, to the general population? Or is this to be a utopian society where no one is greedy and power-hungry?
@Kylie
Do you seriously believe that there is only one “partially publicly owned” industry in America?
See, that’s what I’m talking about. You are so ignorant, you don’t even know how silly you sound.
Technically, you’re right. We actually live in an Oligarchy……rule of the many, by a few. This also contains elements of fascism, (rule by force, government control of industry) socialism (public ownership of industry) and several other “isms” as well. This is borne of a form of socialism known as Democracy, or tyranny of the majority. as many as 49% of the voting population have no rights on any given issue.
Now, as to who would “police the police”, that is really a no brainer if you actually understood anything about the workings of free markets, but since you don’t, here goes:
The buying public. It’s that simple.
Policing, like any other service would be governed by the market. people vote with their dollars. If you provide a valued service, you succeed. if you don’t, you fail. The only way anything like you describe could possibly exist for any length of time is if the government gets involved. It’s that type of corruption and manipulation of actors through counter-intuitive laws and regulation that create situation like the one you describe.
You would still have courts to enforce laws against such things as violation of property rights, violent crimes and such, which could deal with your gangster scenario, they would just be owned and operated by private companies, not the government. Their success obviously would depend on the quality of their service. With no monopoly, there would be plenty of competition. Laws would still exist, they would just be administered differently, and unjust laws would be easier to repeal.
How would that be more dangerous than the way things work now? Aren’t we in a situation where the enforcers of the laws, are members of the very same organization which makes the laws? How is that not a conflict of interest?
If you were a law professor, would you administer a final exam, and then allow the student to grade his own paper? You would not, and for obvious reasons. Why then, would you think it proper for the ones that create the “crimes” be the ones who judge same?
I agree with you on the asphyxia thing, but unless we can understand why these things are happening, they will only get worse.
The cause has it’s roots in corrupt government, and public education which indoctrinates children into corrupt and seriously flawed ideology. This
perpetuates the myth foisted on us by the state that only they can protect us from the “dangers of a free society”, which itself is a myth, because even though our society indeed has elements of freedom, it’s a far cry from being a free society. What they are claiming to be “protecting” us from, are “dangers” they themselves create, and then manage. Obviously, they are good at creating the problems, but they suck at managing them, which is evidenced by the 96% drop in the value of the dollar since 1913.
Peace
Here’s where we’re headed folks, if we don’t stop all the in-fighting, and wrestle our freedom back from the knuckle draggers.
http://www.blacklistednews.com/news-6717-0-5-5–.html
And here’s why:
http://www.blacklistednews.com/news-6742-0-9-9–.html
Peace
Ok, I read these rants on both sides and I thought this was supposed to be about police brutality? Who among us is ignorant enough to think there will not be corruption regardless of the government in place. As long as man is in charge there will be no government that will work. If you look at Socialism, communism, marxism, democracy, republics, or whatever form of Government you like, they are all pretty darn good on paper (in philosophy) however GREED is the culpret when it comes to corruption. If you could for instance require all government officials to take a vow of poverty for the durration of their service you would still have them scampering around trying to pad the pockets of their friends who were willing to help them out after the end of their service. We have let our public servants turn themselves into Diplomats, and that is wrong. As far as the belief there is anything you can do about a bad cop, there is nothing we can do but wait for them to get caught. If we are willing to persecute police before they commit a crime then we are just one step away from being able to send people to prison for what we believe they are capeable of and that is a scary thought. There are bad cops out there, there are power hungry freaks who are cops, and as long as we can keep them from getting put in charge we should fair OK. I know I know ask the guy who got butt raped with a tazer if he faired ok…. I know he did not, now as long as he sticks it out and ensures the officers who did this to him are punished then the system works; tell that to his sore tazed buttocks. Needless to say we will never stop crime whether committed by the public or by the police. The best we can do if we hope to keep the freedoms we have left is stick to our guns and not let the power of an institution bully us into a fearful existance. Let us stand each one shoulder to shoulder against the machine when the machine gets out of control, however we need a machine or we will all be speaking Chinese in a hundred years. If not you your decendants. As always there is no need to tell me how screwed up you think I am because I don’t even care enough to return to see your oppinions. I shall continue on my journey and let you continue yours.
Icky – Ah. I see. So you ARE talking about a utopia where people are not greedy and power hungry. Ok. Have fun in your fantasy world.
@Kylie
Utopia? I don’t see where you get that idea. You either didn’t read my posts, or didn’t understand them.
There will always be greedy people in society. This utopia thing you speak of does not exist. I never spoke of anything remotely related to utopia. Let me ask you this though, if you knew that by changing the way we do things would have the effect of genuinely reducing violent crime by well over 50%, and create prosperity at the same time would you be interested?
The root of this brutality issue, is a constant downgrade in quality of service, due directly to lack of competition (due to government monopoly), and deified status as “Public Enforcer by Decree” (due to public education and media hype), not training.
With no competition, there is no incentive to “be the best”, unless an individual officer feels the need to be, based on his own moral integrity, and there are some of those. No amount of “force” is going to correct this problem however. In fact, we keep giving these knuckle draggers more cool and increasingly more brutal toys every year, to turn around and use on us, at their own discression, and largely without fear of retribution.
Until we awaken from this government induced coma, they have us beat on many levels.
When the government gets out of the way and allows voluntary contracts between individual actors without government intervention of any kind…..and in ALL markets, the markets themselves are very capable of determining which products and services are desired or in need, and at what price, quality and quantity. Our country will be vital and prosperous again when we return to this system, and not until.
This will never be a perfect world, and I never claimed it could be, or even should be. If it were, where would competition and innovation come from? It can however be a lot freer, which will consequently make it safer.
And I don’t care if you agree with me or not…..have a good weekend.
Peace
To all interested in preserving you freedom…..
The is the future for our good friend Johnny Law.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/12/officials-and-experts-warn-of-crash.html
To Johnny I would ask: In a crisis, (likely government induced) will you keep your Oath? In other words, will you have the balls to refuse an UNLAWFUL order, based on restrictions placed on the power of government through the constitution? (specifically, the first, second and fourth amendments) Or will you punk out and simply “follow orders”? No disrespect intended, but in today’s political climate, it seems like a fair question.
Take plenty of time to think about that one, it is certainly a big decision to make for some, but likely one you will be faced with.
To all: I know what side I’ll be on, do you?
Peace
All pigs are perverts, murderers, rapists, and thugs. No pig should be regarded as your friend, neighbor, or someone to talk to. They are your enemy, they want to kill you, rape your children, take your property, and hurt you in any way possible while doing so. They are cowards and bullies.
Your encounters with pigs should be just the same as any other occupying force is treated by a brutalized subject population. Kill them when you have the opportunity, hide from them when you must, running only makes them eager to hurt you more.
"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? After all, you knew ahead of time that those bluecaps were out at night for no good purpose. And you could be sure ahead of time that you'd be cracking the skull of a cutthroat. Or what about the Black Maria sitting out there on the street with one lonely chauffeur — what if it had been driven off or its tires spiked. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!"
I agree with you. I’m sick of hearing about the good cops. How much bad do police get away with and demand for us to overlook because “there are good cops” out there? Anyone with a half a brain or a conscience would be ashamed to be a cop. The fact that they’re not is telling of the mentality in law enforcement. Screw them all.
Do some cops wonder why some citizens take a measure of delight when they hear about some nutcase taking practice at a coffee shop.
Blue snouts should always remember they reap what they sow.
I think it is time for some people to put the cuckoo back in the clock (the last three posters for example).
@JL
When I read those previous posts I wonder what happened to form their perspectives/attitudes on cops. It must have been a pretty bad experience to form such extreme opinions.
My experience has been that most cops are well meaning and do a good job. However, I think the law enforcement system itself is failing the officers and the public. I live in Boise where this taser incident happened and it has certainly changed my attitude toward the police. When an officer can taunt and sexually assault a handcuffed prisoner with a taser while he almost suffocates and come away with nothing more than an administrative reprimand it is a sad day in law enforcement (and society) indeed. In addition, the superior officer who erased the recording of the interrogation and then lied about it, again received only an administrative reprimand. How can these officers be effective in their jobs? Surely this incident will be brought up in court each and every time they must testify in a case. I know that if I ever encounter Cory Bammert, Guy McKean, Deidra Harr, Mark Ambercrombie or Sgt. George Stevens I won’t trust them or believe a word they say. The handling of this incident makes me wonder how many other bad officers are there and being covered for by the system. I am sure this type of mistrust makes it harder for all officers to do their jobs, but instead the system just covers for the bad apples.
I have been harassed, accused of being some kind of pervert, and threatened with arrest for photographing from public locations four times in the last 18 months. I have been told to leave a public street or go to jail, I have been told by an officer that I am only allowed to take pictures if I have “A valid reason” which apparently the police get to decide.
These incidents have changed my attitudes toward the law enforcement system. Just like customers who have a bad experience with a business, those that have good experiences with tell 2-3 people, those that have negative ones with tell 10 people, and when the system refuses to do anything that number will be much higher.
For those who have reservations about just how corrupt the systems is, I have two words “Brady List.”
For the uninitiated a “Brady List” or “Do Not Use List” is a list maintained by DAs or SAs (State Attorneys here in Florida) of LEOS that are so unreliable as prosecution witnesses that they will not or cannot be used in trials. Yet, these same officers write arrest reports every day. By the way, an arrest report is a sworn statement and falsifying one is in many jurisdictions perjury.
How can a LEO be unreliable as a witness yet still make arrest reports? Corruption, plain and simple.
The adversarial tone of many civilians towards LEO is the result of their (the LEOS) having violated a public trust.
Tom,
When I read posts like the ones before I just shake my head. Someone doesn’t have to have an unpleasant experience with the police to be a counter-culture dipshit. There are plenty of folks who just don’t like being told what to do and think it is cool to go against authority. I doubt any of those commenters have had any negative experience more than a traffic ticket.
I hate to rehash something that has 200+ comments but I will say again, the officers did not sexually assault anyone. The sodomy statement is just sensationalist bullshit. The threats made were a verbal form of force to keep the guy from fighting any further.
If you guys hate the police, I encourage you to think of something better to replace them.
well, for not having been sexually assaulted, they sure gave him a hefty settlement! Per the ticker on the injusticeeverywhere.com website today.
i truly don’t know what to say. Opinions abound. This discourse needs to be about the truth, for it is the truth that will do more to secure our freedom than the tried-and-failed might-makes-right.