By Carlos Miller
Nothing would shut a clueless cop or security guard up faster than a Department of Homeland Security Photography License authorizing the bearer to operate a still or video camera in public.
Created by San Francisco designer Matthew Williams, who is now legally allowed to photography anything he wants in public, the licenses are a must-have for any shutterbug.
The licenses were created in the wake of last week’s incident involving a fare cop on the San Francisco Municipal Railway.
Williams has uploaded the master file in case you want to make your own, which pretty much limits the license to designers or people with Adobe Illustrator who understand EPS or OCR.
Otherwise, you’re SOL.
Thanks, Rick.
Popularity: 1% [?]
105 responses so far ↓
1 Jeremy Jojola // May 15, 2009 at 11:55 AM
This is awesome! Excellent. I love how it says “present to any peace officer on demand”
I bet this will work for ignorant security guards too.
Hahahahaha.
Great job.
2 John // May 15, 2009 at 12:26 PM
Creating this for fun is one thing but presenting this as an official identification or credential could get the bearer charged with document fraud.
3 Bran // May 15, 2009 at 12:28 PM
There has been a lot of discussion of this on the pdml (pentax discussion mail list) and the consensus is that this would be good for the jail time that photography is not.
funny but not doable.
4 Duane Kerzic // May 15, 2009 at 12:51 PM
It’s kind of a good idea for a joke. But some pinhead might take this seriously and start asking for the ID because he saw it on the internet. Remember requiring a license is a form of prior restraint so think hard about that one before you embrace the idea.
Using this thing would get you tossed in jail if the person you showed it to knew the rules of using the symbols and markings of the goverment.
5 Simon Jester // May 15, 2009 at 1:10 PM
Cute.
I just carry around a copy of the Constitution for my ‘license’.
6 Chris Martin // May 15, 2009 at 1:13 PM
Funny but ultimately dangerous.
Which leads one to think of starting a simple LLC called something like…oh I don’t know…The US Department of Photography.
Sure anyone can make a badge but, to have thousands of people with the same ID would be great and AFAIK, legal.
Website in 3…2….
7 Donkeyrock // May 15, 2009 at 1:44 PM
Not working for me. I get a 404 error. Guess no photos for me. :>
8 Kol. Klink // May 15, 2009 at 1:46 PM
This is NOT document fraud, for the legally challenged. (What official identification is it fraudulently copying, anyway?)
It’s a spoof, which is quite legal.
9 Carlos Miller // May 15, 2009 at 2:00 PM
It appears the designer is having second thoughts of having this idea on the internet because he has privatized his Flickr account, removed the photo from his blog post and shut down the other link.
Perhaps he received a visit from the Department of Homeland Security for designing licenses without the proper license.
10 R // May 15, 2009 at 2:01 PM
It’s a violation of 18 USC 1028. I’ve alerted the United States Secret Service to Matthew Williams’s actions and forwarded to them a copy of his fabrication. The USSS investigates 18 USC 1028 violations for document fraud like this.
11 Carlos Miller // May 15, 2009 at 2:04 PM
R,
Way to keep crime off the internets.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/1028.html
12 Scott // May 15, 2009 at 2:08 PM
R is an idiot who apparently has nothing better to do with his time then send aggressive armed men after innocent people who have not harmed or been a liability to anyone.
Hopefully someone tasers him soon.
13 Kol. Klink // May 15, 2009 at 2:13 PM
What a bunch of damn pussies.
This “photography license” is NOT covered under 18 USC 1028.
It’s a parody (spoof.) Read the case law.
It’s not falsifying any known identification, such as a drivers license, military ID, or other ubiquitous papers. Please!
I’d love for some prick cop, about as bright as the fraidy-cats here, to arrest me for document fraud. lol Or maybe impersonating a photographer.
Parody: Fair Use or Copyright Infringement
http://www.publaw.com/parody.html
It has been a long-standing practice to poke fun at our cultural icons, symbols, public figures and celebrities. A parody exists when one imitates a serious piece of work, such as literature, music or artwork, for a humorous or satirical effect. Parody, as a method of criticism, has been a very popular means for authors, entertainers and advertisers to communicate a particular message or point of view to the public.
14 R // May 15, 2009 at 2:14 PM
I’m an offduty federal agent. Like any sworn officer, it is my duty to alert the appropriate authorities when I see unlawful activity.
15 Andy // May 15, 2009 at 2:16 PM
Holy crap I just read that Cornell page. Up to 30 years in prison. Not too bright of Matt Williams to put his mugshot and home address on the thing.
16 R // May 15, 2009 at 2:24 PM
The caselaw well documents successful prosecutions of persons who failed to establish that a forged instrument met parodical standards. The Secret Service is particularly vigilant in their investigations and prosecutions and will decide if this matter warrants further action. That Matthew Williams has removed this item from his webpage suggests some enforcement action is already underway or at least he has realized the seriousness of his mistake.
17 Carlos Miller // May 15, 2009 at 2:25 PM
R,
Thank you for keeping us all safe.
18 Duane Kerzic // May 15, 2009 at 2:25 PM
Oye,
R is a jerk. If he bothered to understand 1028 he’d know jus what a jerk he was.
As long as the document is intended as parody, as Kol. Klink pointed out, there is no violation.
If you printed one of these and tried to use it as more then a joke you’d have problems.
19 Michaelk42 // May 15, 2009 at 2:31 PM
I strongly suspect R is an Internet Tough Guy and completely full of shit.
If he just identified himself as a “federal agent” (no mention of which actual agency… could be an FDA chicken inspector for all we know) but isn’t… Oh wait, he’s anonymous, no one can tell.
20 Concerned Citizen // May 15, 2009 at 2:39 PM
Mr. Williams is making it easier for the terrorists to infiltrate our society.
I hope they throw him in jail.
21 Carlos Miller // May 15, 2009 at 2:44 PM
Yes, I heard that his middle name is not even Stanley.
It’s Hussein.
22 Kol. Klink // May 15, 2009 at 2:44 PM
R, all those “successful prosecutions” are for forging documents to look like documents that are widely used.
A “this is parody” defense of copying dollars or drivers license won’t wash, as you point out.
But a fedgov photography license – that is pure parody.
Sort of like this website – which uses the SEAL OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES – as a parody.
http://whitehouse.georgewbush.org/index.asp
Maybe you should get dutiful and call the SS and let them know POTUS’s SEAL is being abused.
23 Anj // May 15, 2009 at 2:46 PM
With the internet you never know. R may be bogus but maybe he’s not. I’m sure Carlos’s website is watched by various cops and feds. They seem to have it out for him. Nothing would make them happier than to prosecute somebody based on something they found on this blog. I think there’s been some unflattering things here in the past about the Secret Service.
24 Michaelk42 // May 15, 2009 at 2:54 PM
Until he/she makes with some sort of identification, it could be anyone. We don’t even know that “R” actually has anything at all to do with the designer doing anything. All we have is some random person claiming they submitted something to the SS.
I call troll until we see something actually verifiable.
25 Carlos Miller // May 15, 2009 at 2:55 PM
Perhaps R is guilty of impersonating a federal officer.
26 Thor God of Thunder // May 15, 2009 at 3:09 PM
Maybe R is guilty of impersonating a fascist d-bag..oh wait, that’s not an impersonation.
27 Michaelk42 // May 15, 2009 at 3:18 PM
@Carlos Maybe you should forward his IP address information to the feds, just to make sure he’s not.
28 Carlos Miller // May 15, 2009 at 3:21 PM
Most people who post gibberish on this site are sure to use IP blocking methods.
That’s usually the first sign that they are full of shit.
29 Ellen // May 15, 2009 at 3:24 PM
I think it’s better to be safe than sorry. It doesn’t really matter if R is an agent or not. If he is he doesn’t have to identify himself or who he works for. All he has to do is pick up the phone and contact the right person to get somebody in trouble.
Even if he’s a fake there’s enough real cops who pass through here to make life difficult for anybody here that pisses them off when they can trace you. They could easily call the Secret service and not say anything about it here.
Carlos I think you should at least remove Matthew’s last name and his home address from this article and the picture. He took the original down at his site for a reason. No sense giving “them” any amunition. I agree with Anj that they’d love to use your blog to bust somebody. The Secret Service has a history of investigating people who make very vague comments about the president’s health etc. They also detained and questioned a whole lot of people at Bush rallies who had any kind of anti-Bush t-shirts or buttons. They are not friends of the 1st amendment.
30 xdamousex // May 15, 2009 at 3:29 PM
R, as a federal agent, it is sad that you don’t appear to know the law you enforce.
Is that an elective course in academy?
31 Chuck // May 15, 2009 at 3:51 PM
Just in case R is not an agent (but he sounds like he is because he knew the proper US code right away), I called the regional Secret Service office closest to me as a private citizen and spoke with an agent about this “license”. The agent was very interested and logged onto this website while we spoke on the phone. He spent about 20 mins on the phone with me, took the complaint and said he had opened a case file.
Nothing would make me happier than to see cop hater Carlos Miller get one of his buddies prosecuted because of this blog. At a minimum it sounds like this Matthew Williams idiot will be getting a visit from the Secret Service.
32 Carlos Miller // May 15, 2009 at 4:00 PM
This site never ceases to amaze me. I never expected this post to turn into another flame war.
33 Carlos Miller // May 15, 2009 at 4:05 PM
Ellen,
I would hope he did not use his real address because he was the one who posted it on the internet.
34 Michael Garcia // May 15, 2009 at 4:13 PM
It’s really sick, the idea that these statists unapologetically will use the guns of government to go after someone who holds an opposite political philosophy.
But then they wouldn’t be statists if they didn’t believe in aggressing against their neighbors. I hope people like R and Chuck see that their action if what they say is even the truth is nothing more then aggression against their neighbors.
35 xdamousex // May 15, 2009 at 4:18 PM
@Chuck: He spent about 20 mins on the phone with me, took the complaint and said he had opened a case file.
That’s what he tells you to get you off the phone. You honestly think he has nothing better to do than worry about some guy posting that image on his blog?
As a journalist, I’ve used similar techniques to get off the phone with people who call to whine that I should write about a story this or that. I just tell them “Very interesting, I’ll look into it.”
36 xdamousex // May 15, 2009 at 4:19 PM
And honestly, Chuck, what kind of guy are you that you would waste a federal agent’s time with such a stupid concern?
37 Carlos Miller // May 15, 2009 at 4:23 PM
Yes, the old “I’ll look into it” while you’re thinking “What a whacko”.
38 Bran // May 15, 2009 at 4:46 PM
The blog and blanks are undoubtedly parody. If someone made up one of these IDs and used it
39 xdamousex // May 15, 2009 at 4:54 PM
It’s like saying that making an image like this is counterfeiting.
40 Chuck // May 15, 2009 at 5:12 PM
I spoke with a special agent via a referral from my son, who is a police officer. The agent I spoke with does not handle routine citizen calls. If the agent thought I was a wacko he wouldn’t have called me back or spent 20 mins on the phone with me. I was a parole agent my entire working career so I am very familiar with how to handle lawbreakers.
Go ahead and disbelieve me all you want. See who’s laughing after the Secret Service pays a call on Matthew Williams, who’s easily found via his IP registration.
41 the lone white boy // May 15, 2009 at 5:16 PM
@ carlos “This site never ceases to amaze me. I never expected this post to turn into another flame war.”
lol, I think it was that story about the cop kicking the prone suspect in the head that brought all the trolls in. Maybe they decided to stay a while?
42 Michaelk42 // May 15, 2009 at 5:41 PM
Now Chuck’s a former parole agent with a cop for a son. Suuuure.
And so what, even if the SS pays Williams a visit? Did he actually print anything AND present it to an actual person as legitimate ID? That’s a long way from a simple parody image on a blog.
I think it’s a lot more likely Chuck and R are just bored 12-year-olds with too much internet access. Or they just act like it.
43 Carlos Miller // May 15, 2009 at 5:46 PM
I hope the SS does pay him a visit because that would create even more outrage among the people in this country.
44 Chris Martin // May 15, 2009 at 6:23 PM
The address seems to be a fake.
The closest thing to it seems to be AT&T Park and Wired Magazine.
45 Duane Kerzic // May 15, 2009 at 6:24 PM
I think Williams ID parody needs a full and complete investigation. We can’t be making any judgements until the investigation is complete. Normal ‘Law Enforcement Officers’ aren’t qualified to figure out what is a parody and what is ID fraud. It takes special training to make such a determination and the only Law Enforcement Agency with the proper training to figure this out is the Secret Service. Certainly an ex-parole officer doesn’t have the training and it’s a sure bet that traffic cops don’t have the training.
Of course the general public is rather adept at figuring out what is a parody.
46 Kol. Klink // May 15, 2009 at 6:26 PM
Mr. James Duane, a professor at Regent Law School and a former defense attorney, tells you why you should never agree to be interviewed by the police.
Don’t Talk to Cops, Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik
An experienced police officer tells you why you should never agree to be interviewed by the police.
Don’t Talk to Cops, Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE
* * * * *
“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?… The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If…if…We didn’t love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation…. We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”
— Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn
47 Carlos Miller // May 15, 2009 at 6:29 PM
Kol. Klink,
That’s a post I’ve been meaning to write for the longest time, but there is always something else that gets written about.
48 James // May 15, 2009 at 6:33 PM
You people are so naive. Can’t you see that if he has the ability to make this ID, he can make other IDs that identify him as a Homeland Security agent?
49 Chris Martin // May 15, 2009 at 6:37 PM
“You people are so naive. Can’t you see that if he has the ability to make this ID, he can make other IDs that identify him as a Homeland Security agent?”
So can anyone with a computer and a half-awake brain. Does that mean we should all be suspects of forgery?
Where do you people come from? /sigh
50 NYCPhotorights // May 15, 2009 at 8:02 PM
Ko. Klink wrote:
Maybe you should get dutiful and call the SS and let them know POTUS’s SEAL is being abused.
I guess we should also tell them to arrest GWB on the grounds that he impersonated a president for the last 8 years…
51 Kol. Klink // May 15, 2009 at 8:28 PM
“To be governed is to be kept in sight, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right, nor the wisdom, nor the virtue to do so…. To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction, noted, registered, enrolled, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under the pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, trained, ransomed, exploited, monopolized, extorted, squeezed, mystified, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, despised, harassed, tracked, abused, clubbed, disarmed, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and, to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality.”
– Pierre-Joseph Prodhoun
52 Scott Chamness // May 15, 2009 at 10:18 PM
Hmmm. Interesting post.
I don’t think people realize how easy it is to make a fake ID of any sort. It’s really quite simple if you know what your doing.
That ID is an obvious parody for several reasons, not the least the fact that it has Citizenship and Religion on it. Anybody who knows what they are looking at would be able to notice that it was a fake immediately. Ergo, parody.
Also, just the fact that he created one, does not mean that he actually had any “intent” of using them in any action against the government. That seems to be the key in many of the US code subsections.
Especially considering the fact that there’s not really anything illegal you can do with that.
53 Carlos Miller // May 15, 2009 at 10:21 PM
Scott,
This is no time for logic. Can’t you see the feds will probably be breaking his door down soon?
54 Scott Chamness // May 15, 2009 at 10:27 PM
heh, considering what looks to be the implications of a lot of my post, they could be coming to mine too.
Just want to state for the record, that I have never, and never plan to make fake documents of any sort. I just know how. Just sayin’.
Carlos, LOL.
55 Michaelk42 // May 15, 2009 at 10:33 PM
Dammit, now Agent R is gonna come down on us all for ‘contempt of comment.’
56 Vidiot // May 15, 2009 at 10:42 PM
I think the faux ID was a dumb idea, chiefly because it has the DHS name and logo prominently featured.
What I would like to see is something that doesn’t necessarily masquerade as being under the auspices of any particular agency…maybe just a “Photography Permit” that says something akin to “The bearer has the right to photograph in public places, under the authority of the U.S. government. See Amendment 1, U.S. Constitution for details.”
It’d probably be best if it also had, in tiny type, “This document is not issued by any government agency.” And if it had text from Bert Krages’ “The Photographer’s Right” on the back.
57 Scott // May 15, 2009 at 11:22 PM
I think you’re all missing the real point here.
MATT WILLIAMS IS 6’1″ AND ONLY WEIGHS 140 POUNDS!
For g-d’s sake, someone get the poor guy a fucking sandwich!
58 XYZ // May 16, 2009 at 6:55 AM
Law enforcement is watching you everywhere, including on the internet. Good example here:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/pcjxf9
59 Michaelk42 // May 16, 2009 at 7:14 AM
Except the real cops don’t announce themselves under anonymous accounts to bleat about reporting people to the Secret Service for imaginary crimes.
60 Sheepdog // May 16, 2009 at 7:55 AM
“Nothing would shut a clueless cop or security guard up faster than a DHS Homeland Security Photography License”
Guess again Sherlock. If you handed crap like that to me, you’d be getting a free ride downtown in the back of my cruiser. In my state, presenting false identification to a police officer is a felony.
61 Kol. Klink // May 16, 2009 at 9:14 AM
Stalinist Sheepdog, you’re such a good boy…
But really, what is “false” about a “true parody?”
Fact is, nothing has been falsified, since there is no genuine federal or state photography license.
And all the personal information contained in the self issued ID parody is true.
Or would you testi-lie that it wasn’t?
62 Another Cop // May 16, 2009 at 9:54 AM
If you think it’s a parody, explain that to the judge. He’ll decide whether it is or isn’t. I agree with Sheepdog. If someone presented this to me, they would be arrested. I’d let the DA and the court system handle it from there. I’d also refer the matter to USSS for their review.
63 Scott Chamness // May 16, 2009 at 10:14 AM
Kol. Klink has hit the point I think. There is no false information about the man, and as there is no real Department of Homeland Security photographers license, so it may be a parody.
On the other hand, looking at it again, he used the exact seal of the Homeland Security. That is a problem. Something about a parody should make it obvious as a parody.
Not that I’m against him or anything, there were just some things that should not have been put in, or should have been changed.
64 Kol. Klink // May 16, 2009 at 10:59 AM
When Parody confronts Lies:
Keystone Kops ask for a license/permit to photography (false “color of law” demands) and then make false arrests/false imprisonment for their false demands, yeah, I think the judge will truly do right.
Then in the federal civil rights case, after false charges have been dismissed, I don’t want to hear about any pigs squealing over loosing their house.
Better look up Title 42, Section 1983 of the U.S. Code.
Think they’ll CYA and that you have “Qualified Immunity?”
Harlow v. Fitzgerald, 457 U.S. 800 (1982) qualified immunity is designed to shield government officials from actions “insofar as their conduct does not violate clearly established statutory or constitutional rights of which a reasonable person would have known.”
Any reasonable person knows there is no need for a photography license, and that any such document is a mere parody and political statement, protected under the 1st Amendment.
65 Spencer Thayer // May 16, 2009 at 11:20 AM
Does anyone have the original EPS? I would like to re-purpose this for Chicago Copwatch- make a few changes to the Homeland Security logo, maybe put a camera in it or something. Cause the only problem is using the logo. Which MAY actually be Public Domain like many other government logos but who knows these are the Brown Shirts of American Democracy we are talking about.
FYI you crazies. At least in Illinois you don’t have to give an officer any identification if they ask for it. This is why a Press ID is 100% fine to give an officer. So giving an officer something like this is no more different than anything else. As long as you don’t claim to be a Federal Agent it’s legit. So unless they are ticketing you there is absolutely no need to give the officer anything other than your name and your address.
So I am thinking about making these as business cards to give to the Cops when they are asking us who we are on patrol. It’s perfect. What I have been doing in the past is just printing my name and address on a piece of paper with my signature verifying that this is legit.
66 Kol. Klink // May 16, 2009 at 11:22 AM
Scott said ” he used the exact seal”
Yes, and just because a Barney Fife WILL haul a photographer in for presenting false photography license papers, I’d change the symbols in the homeland security logo just slightly – nay, slightly more truthful – in the following way:
a) the “mountain” symbol changed to a swastika
b) the “waves”symbol turned 90 degrees into a Nazi SS symbol likeness.
The YoodleTube publicity would be so much more effective.
Immediate dismissal of charges, a delicious opportunity in civil court, widespread publicity, and guffaws galore. What more could you ask for?
67 Kol. Klink // May 16, 2009 at 11:35 AM
Oh, and maybe…
c) Change “Homeland” to “Heimatland”, as this was a term used by the Nazis to refer to the more common German term “Vaterland.”
Ya think the prim’n'proper paper police would even notice the switcharoo?
I don’t think so! (said in Jim Carey’s The Mask voice.)
68 Sheepdog // May 16, 2009 at 11:44 AM
Here is common backtalk cops hear every day from people under arrest:
1) I’m going to sue you and win.
2) You’re a Nazi, fascist, friend of Hitler, SS supporter, just like Goebels, anti-American, disgrace to your badge, Barney Fife, need to learn the Constitution, yap yap yap.
We just tune this out when we hear this. Why?
1) A good 99.99 percent of loudmouths who threaten to never actually sue or file an IA complaint. If they file an IA complaint, 99.99 percent of the time it’s tossed out. I’ve been a cop for nearly 20 years. I’ve been threatened nearly every day with a lawsuit. I’ve never been sued. Every arrestee complaint about me was thrown out by IA.
2) When someone starts quoting the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Federalist Papers, Thomas Jefferson’s writings, blah blah blah, 99.99 percent of the time they make no sense and often have very bad breath.
So I read all your comments above in this thread, particularly Kol. Klink and I just laugh. Like I’ve never heard that blather before.
Obey the law and we’ll get along fine. Break the law and I’ll give you a personal guided tour through the arrest and booking process.
Have a lovely weekend. I’m on duty later tonight, so I’ll be busting a whole lot of DUI’s and D&D’s tonight. Might have to bust a few heads in the process too. Watch out for me!
69 Kol. Klink // May 16, 2009 at 11:47 AM
Spencer,
DHS logo is indeed “public domain” in the United States, because it is a work of the United States Federal Government under the terms of Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 105 of the US Code.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:DHS_Logo.jpg
I’d still consider making the cosmetic changes in some manner as I mentioned, just to have better publicity in the event that you do get arrested by a Papieren Bitte jackboot.
70 Carlos Miller // May 16, 2009 at 11:50 AM
Sheepdog,
Most of the “cops” on this thread totally missed the point of this post.
It was a complete joke. I don’t think anybody is going to actually use this “license”.
I think the tone of my writing makes it obvious.
The point is that if police are going to enforce false laws, then we will come up with a false license.
I don’t know why anybody would use this license if they are getting harassed for taking photos.
Why use anything that would interfere with the multi-thousand dollar lawsuit that will be sure to follow a false arrest for taking photos?
71 Kol. Klink // May 16, 2009 at 11:56 AM
Ah yes, a parody of an ONLY ONE busting a few heads enough.
Watch out for me!
Sure, oh thou Poor Beggar of Attention. Let us know when you pass middle school. We’ll be watching out for that.
72 Spencer Thayer // May 16, 2009 at 12:04 PM
Carlos Miller, the only reason why you would give the officer something like this is because you DO NOT want to give an officer your State ID. (That is if it’s legal to not give an officer your ID in your state.) If you go around filming cops on a regular basis they will do anything and everything to make your life terrible. One thing is taking your ID. If an officer takes your ID, he doesn’t have to give it back. In fact if the officer takes your ID and tells you to wait for him to return, at least in Illinois, you have to wait there for him otherwise you can be arrested for any number of charges. All you can do against this is document this type of harassment and then file a complaint.
So if you have another form of identification which supplies the officer all of the data he legally can ask of you if you are not being ticketed then you’re golden. You might as well make fun of the whole process while doing it. ; )
FYI, you don’t have to give an officer your ID if you are being ticketed in Illinois either- you’ll get arrested- but as soon as you are verified as to who you are you will be released. This had happened to a friend of mine who was biking. He didn’t have his ID and was arrested because he was ticketed. Once they confirmed his identity they let him go with the ticket and no additional charges.
73 Duane Kerzic // May 16, 2009 at 12:24 PM
Carlos said, Why use anything that would interfere with the multi-thousand dollar lawsuit that will be sure to follow a false arrest for taking photos?
EXACTLY.
It falls to the same level of stupidity that happens when police conduct an orderly high speed chase, protect the public from the chase and then decide to kick the suspect in the head while laying prone and spread eagle at the last minute.
I know I don’t need a sheepdog looking out for me. I’m not sheep, I can think and act for myself, thank you very much.
It’s becoming obvious that the police on here just don’t seem to have gotten the shift in the country that’s not going to tolerate their abuses anymore. While good police work will always be rewarded I think the days of the public allowing for thuggery to continue are over. Monitoring of police is going to increase not decrease and as long as you aren’t doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about.
74 Chris Martin // May 16, 2009 at 12:51 PM
G-d I love this site!
We have liberty loving people on top of complete fascists pigs! lol
75 NYCPhotorights // May 16, 2009 at 12:52 PM
Sheepdog says:
Obey the law and we’ll get along fine.
That goes for everyone – INCLUDING COPS!
Obviously you don’t work in New York – the police force here has been sued repeatedly by the NYCLU as well as private attorneys for harassing photographers – and the photographers have been winning settlements!!
Oh – I won’t threaten to sue the cop or report him to the CCRB — – I WILL sue the cop and report him to the CCRB as well as trash his reputation all over the net if he interferes with my photography!
The only difference between me and the people that voice their threats to the cop’s face is that he will go home thinking he stopped a big bad photographer and all is well in the world but that is when my letter writing and legal campaign will just be getting started.
What I ask is very simple but cops don’t seem to get it – enforce only those laws as written and leave us alone when something is not illegal.
76 Spencer Thayer // May 16, 2009 at 12:58 PM
“What I ask is very simple but cops don’t seem to get it – enforce only those laws as written and leave us alone when something is not illegal.”
Ha, brilliant. If you don’t mind I am going to begin using this.
77 Michaelk42 // May 16, 2009 at 1:34 PM
Ah, I see Sheepdog is good for lulz at this point. Of course a real cop wouldn’t have to hide behind an anonymous handle.
Of course, if Sheepdog really was a cop he’d never see the card if he didn’t harass photographers for ID or credentials he has no right to demand. Like Carlos said, the “cops” in the thread have completely missed the point.
78 Scott // May 16, 2009 at 1:34 PM
Obey the law and we’ll get along fine.
See, Sheepdog would arrest someone and “bust a few heads” of people who were harboring fugitive slaves in 1850. He depends on the LAW to define his moral code, so if the LAW says black people are less than human, he’s A-OKAY with that. After all, the LAW IS THE LAW.
In other words, he’s a legal positivist, and the least moral kind of human being there is. Not only that, but he’s a cop which means he’s a pistol packing legal positivist, which is the worst kind.
79 Kol. Klink // May 16, 2009 at 1:44 PM
Bud Light Presents: Real Men of Genius
(real men of genius)
Today we salute you, Mr. Homeland Security Licensed Photographer.
(Mr. Homeland Security Licensed Photographer)
Any lensman can get a snapshot of the his wife and girlfriend together in bed but it takes real cojones to take pictures in public.
(Can I watch?)
Boldly flaunting your terrorist size lens, you tirelessly document a free nation when lesser men can only sinisterly surveil.
(Keep on clickin’)
Picture erase? You don’t need no stinking picture erase!
(No!)
And even though you’ve never been arrested, you have bagged the occasional speeding ticket.
(Enhance that revenue!)
So crack open an ice-cold Bud Light, properly papered paparazzo, because every shot you take, they’ll still be watching you.
(Mr. Homeland Security Licensed Photographer.)
80 Donkeyrock // May 16, 2009 at 1:56 PM
Kol. Klink,
Love it. Real Men Of Genius lives!
81 Ariel // May 16, 2009 at 2:15 PM
Duane, I have a feeling sheepdog makes up his own laws. As he pointed out, IA is just a rubber stamp. And the Police Unions? Cops can fake police reports, even commit perjury, and the Unions will push to have them reinstated. Sheepdog inadvertently reveals how corrupt the system is, but is clueless as to how the Internet and “every phone is a video record” will change his life. The BART police tried to confiscate all the recorders and failed, with Meherle facing charges now.
Don’t forget, too, that cops are insular. They live in their own world and think it is the whole world. Sheepdog is an example. Wonder how many laws he has broken in his career? He forgets he isn’t the Law, that power is in the legislature and the courts.
Watch for laws pushed by the Unions through politicians to ban video records of police in action. It is their only hope of keeping the bad cops safe.
82 DS // May 16, 2009 at 2:55 PM
a real cop wouldn’t have to hide behind an anonymous handle.
Most cops know not to use their real names on the internet because if they were ever sued, anything they wrote in a public forum could be used against them. Many states also allow cops to redact all of their personal information from public records, like property and tax records because those also can show up on the internet.
As the news article below illustrates, anything you post on the internet in your real name can come back to haunt you:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/q2ssf5
83 Michaelk42 // May 16, 2009 at 3:10 PM
@DS
I think the link you give there is a little off, given the issues of tweeting *in a courtroom,* first amendment messiness, and the fact that it wasn’t a cop.
After a line like “Might have to bust a few heads in the process too. Watch out for me!”
He would have to be stupid to use his real name – if he was really a cop.
Of course using a real name would indicate some sort of integrity or accountability as well.
84 Ariel // May 16, 2009 at 3:27 PM
#82 Yep, Furnas(sp) racist comments sunk the OJ trial, for example. Given Sheepdogs attitude, its likely he’s broken as many laws as any he’s arrested. Police have higher rates of alcoholism, DV, and suicide than the general population, so his self-righteousness is likely hypocrisy.
85 DS // May 16, 2009 at 3:33 PM
@Michaelk42
It’s not an issue of integrity or accountability. It’s a matter of personal safety. Virtually every police officer I know does not use his/her name anywhere on the internet, no matter if it’s on a blog, a political forum or Facebook. It’s about personal safety.
The link was provided solely as an example of how something on the internet can end up being used against someone in court proceedings. You would be hard pressed to find a cop who had internet postings used against him, that’s why I used the example provided.
Most officers know to watch their back no matter where they are. Again, this is not an issue of integrity or accountability. It’s the same reason an officer doesn’t have his name in the telephone book or on tax records. It’s all about personal safety. Quite simply, cops are trained in security issues and they are a lot more careful than the average citizen.
86 Michaelk42 // May 16, 2009 at 3:45 PM
@DS And yet it’s such a convenient cover for blowhards and jerks. In Sheepdog’s case it obviously has nothing to do with personal safety.
I think you miss the point. The guy was posting DURING court proceedings. ABOUT THOSE court proceedings. And sure it came back to haunt him – though he was being punished for not “respecting” those proceedings, much like contempt of cop.
Sheepdog hiding behind a handle after his “busting heads” comment isn’t about personal safety, it’s about covering up possible intent to violate the law and a person’s rights.
And that’s all about integrity and accountability.
Of course, this would only apply to Sheepdog if he was an actual cop.
87 Carlos Miller // May 16, 2009 at 4:23 PM
Most cops know not to use their real names on the internet because if they were ever sued, anything they wrote in a public forum could be used against them
This is also why many cops won’t give you their badge number when you ask for it – even though they are legally required to do so.
88 Chris Martin // May 16, 2009 at 4:30 PM
DS is so full of shit!
Why in the hell would you be afraid of the public if you were only a upholder of the law?
People like you hide because you are power-hungry fascists.
Go ahead and look me up. I’m using my real name. Come to my house and fuck with me, state whore! I aint hiding nothing.
I can guarantee that you will be wishing you hadn’t.
89 Ariel // May 16, 2009 at 4:32 PM
#87 Carlos, not giving the information they are legally required to blows their integrity all to bits doesn’t it?
LEO: I demand ID.
Citizen: Here it is. May I have your name and badge number?
LEO: NO!!
90 Carlos Miller // May 16, 2009 at 4:32 PM
DS,
I never say anything online that I wouldn’t say to your face in person.
That’s the difference between me and you.
91 Ariel // May 16, 2009 at 4:43 PM
#85 DS, oh horseshit. I understand their need for personal safety. That excuse can also be a refuge for scoundrels. When they refuse to give their name and badge number to a citizen, they are just as guilty as someone for failing to identify.
As for retaliation by criminals, what, you want LEOs testify behind curtains with their name held secret for their personal safety? They took the job voluntarily for the Christ’s sake. I know sheepdog doesn’t like the Constitution, but I think there is something about being able to confront witnesses. OK, I know its a strawman, but I wonder how far you’ll go for “personal safety”?
92 Kol. Klink // May 16, 2009 at 5:14 PM
Bud Light Presents Real American Heroes
(Real American Heroes)
Today we salute you, Mr. Gangsta Cop Posse Member.
(Mr. Gangsta Cop Posse Member)
Every great man has a name, and behind that name, oh I can’t tell you because I’m a head-bustin’ LEO hero.
(Have you got any ID?)
What do you do when you have no talent what so ever? Join the force to get your attention.
(Watch out for me!)
Glock 23, check. power to screw up your life if you don’t respect me, check. Respect, no check.
(Help a FOP brother out)
So crack open an ice cold Bud Light, baron of the blue light, you put the po in the lice state.
(Mr. Gangsta Cop Posse Member)
93 Carlos Miller // May 16, 2009 at 5:26 PM
Kol. Klink,
I really think you should record these and upload them to Youtube!
94 Michaelk42 // May 16, 2009 at 5:48 PM
I’d say Kol. Klink is pretty much winning the thread
95 Duane Kerzic // May 16, 2009 at 7:53 PM
Wow, there is a lot here today.
Ariel, You left a part out…
LEO: I demand ID.
Citizen: Here it is. May I have your name and badge number.
LEO: NO!!
Citizen: If you aren’t doing anything wrong you wouldn’t mind giving me your name and badge number.
On the personal safety issue for cops and the rest of us on the internet. The allowing of cops to remove their names from some records stems from some creeps finding out where the cops that arrested them lived and then retaliating against them. Of course that could also apply to the rest of us as well. It’s a fear that’s been taking to extremes Ariel I think it’s actually been proposed that LEO’s testilie from behind curtains at times.
I’ve had my name, home address, email and phone number posted on the internet for ages, over 19 years now. I haven’t had a bad experience because of it to date and have had many good experiences. This is kind of like taking the ‘don’t talk to strangers’ rule and applying it to the internet. I’ve also always talked to strangers and haven’t had a bad experience doing that other than when the strangers won’t talk to me because I’m a stranger.
96 browne // May 16, 2009 at 7:56 PM
For someone said you could get arrested for fraud for this “ID”. Well I think you can only get arrested for something that actually exist. You can’t get arrested for creating a “fake” document that doesn’t exist. If an agency accepted it, that’s not on you that’s on them for being idiots.
Of course now they’ll probably make some law that says jokes are a crime, but as of now I don’t think this kind of joke is a crime yet.
I’m downloading my ID right now. Hopefully I can film a LA Sheriff being confused when they tell me I can’t film on the train again owing to it being private property.
Browne
97 Ariel // May 16, 2009 at 9:19 PM
Duane,
One of the reasons that witnesses should be seen by the jury is because visual cues are as, or more, important than auditory cues in getting a sense of the honesty of the witness. None of this should be allowed.
98 Duane Kerzic // May 16, 2009 at 9:25 PM
Ariel,
I wasn’t that clear in my post. I was trying to be a bit sarcastic and got distracted. Of course no cops should be allowed to testify from behind a curtain. Like most things what starts as a good idea gets taken to far.
99 Ariel // May 16, 2009 at 10:04 PM
Duane,
given the cops that are suing because their names were released under a public information request, I’ll believe anything. Right now I can find the name of every AZ cop in about 30 seconds.
They’re public employees, their names and badge numbers should be readily available. Their home address only with good reason, the same as mine.
100 Carlos Miller // May 23, 2009 at 1:22 AM
Matthew Hussein Williams re-posted the license back on his site, but this time, after seeking the advice of a lawyer, he added the following disclaimer.
So I guess he won’t be raided after all.
This license is intended as art and political commentary in that one does not need a license to take photographs. This license is not an official government-issued document, nor is it intended as an imitation of an official government document, and it should not be used as such. The author expressly disclaims all liability for any use to which this artwork is put. This license is a work of fiction and is not to be used as official identification or authorization. Know your rights, and please support the American Civil Liberties Union and the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
Posted by matthew on 05/14 at 04:05 PM
http://www.matthewwilliamsdesign.com/weblog/index.php/site/comments/muni_dont_take_my_kodachrome/
101 Carlos Miller // May 23, 2009 at 1:28 AM
But I believe he should be raided for making people register before they can comment on his damn blog.
102 Michaelk42 // May 23, 2009 at 2:12 PM
“But I believe he should be raided for making people register before they can comment on his damn blog.”
OTOH, it does cut down on the anonymous clowns claiming to be cops.
103 bj // May 23, 2009 at 2:25 PM
OTOH, it does cut down on the anonymous clowns claiming to be cops.
Thats the truth!
104 Samsumner // Jun 12, 2009 at 1:02 PM
I still want to know where to find a copy of the “original” graphics file. While I would remove the DHS Logo and references, the volunteer organization (duly authorized) that I serve with could really use new ID cards. If anyone knows where go obtain this file, I would appreciate your assistance. THANKS!
105 LCPL DuBois // Aug 5, 2010 at 12:05 PM
It must be made clear, that yes, it is a given American right to photograph at will, but there are also privacy and protection acts for the Safety of peace officers and/or Government employees
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