By Carlos Miller
Train afficionado Kurt Weber was standing on the platform of a train station in New Jersey shooting video of a departing train when he was asked the age-old question.
“What are you doing?”
And why are you doing it?
Thus began the age-old process of bringing up 9/11 and lying about laws that are not in place.
Weber, who emailed a complaint to New Jersey Transit, just received the following reply, which confirms that photography is allowed in train stations:
Dear Kurt,
Thank you for contacting NJ TRANSIT. NJ TRANSIT allows photographs to be taken of facilities and equipment as long as all safety and security procedures are followed. Thus we have alerted the rail line superintendent to your email, and he will speak to these individuals and take any indicated corrective measures.NJ TRANSIT appreciates you taking the time to share this information. It is important to us as we work to improve our service to you.
Sincerely,
Fred Bauer
NJ TRANSIT Customer Service Team
Here is Weber’s original posting of the incident on subchat.com.
Today, I went on a railfanning excursion to Morristown and Danbury. The train I had coming back to Long Branch, where I live, was a doubleheaded train powered by 4214 and 4141. As I recorded the train leaving, two gentlemen approached me. I will here refer to him as “Suit,” since that’s what he was wearing.
Suit: “Hey, How ya doin?”
Me: “I’m doing alright, how about you?”
Suit: “I’m doing okay. What are you doing?”
Me: “I’m recording.”
Suit: “Excuse Me?”
Me: “I’m recording.”
Suit: “Recording what?”
Me: “The train.”
Suit: “Why?”
Me: “Because it’s my hobby.”
-At this point, I switched the video off, which I really wish I hadn’t.
Suit: “Okay. Taking a video of that train isn’t really allowed, since it’s going through a railyard. Following 9/11, we clamped down on a lot of things of that nature.”
Me: “It’s my understanding that Warrington issued a letter precisely to the contrary.”
Suit: “Well, Warrington isn’t the GM anymore. It’s no problem being at a station and getting a passing trains, I understand that-a lot of guys have that hobby, but certain points, such as tunnels, bridges, and yards, can not be videod or photographed anymore. Especially railyards, since it also draws unwanted attetion to employees, which is what we are. It’s no problem being at a station and getting a passing trains, I understand that-a lot of guys have that hobby, butI’m not trying to bust your chops, I’m not going to confiscate your camera or anything, but I’m telling you that you’re not allowed to do that.”
Me: “I’ll remember that.” (I had a strong desire to terminate the encounter)”You have a nice night.”
Suit: “You too.”
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12 responses so far ↓
1 genewitch // Apr 16, 2009 at 3:43 PM
he should have just dropped the camera and let it record while strapped around his neck.
I love the 9/11 thing, it just proves everyone who says that it was just a bunch of fearmongering garbage right.
I’m sick of fear.
2 Voice of Reason // Apr 16, 2009 at 3:52 PM
The subchat thread is surprisingly active (link provided in posting). Dozens of posts in less than 24 hours. One point I noticed is that these people are prepared to deal with situations. When they’re challenged, they’re accustomed to quoting specific policies.
There’s an interesting story on that thread. If I read it correctly, “Photo Permits” were required at one point, but aren’t required or issued any longer. One photographer still carries an old permit around, because if he’s approached by an employee who doesn’t know that permits aren’t required, it’s an “immediate silencer”. The moral is that people aren’t necessarily making up their own laws. In some cases, they’re simply ignorant. Obviously, this means that they’re not doing their job properly, but it isn’t always willful obstruction.
3 NYCPhotorights // Apr 16, 2009 at 4:18 PM
Subchat is a relatively popular site amongst nyc area rail afficionados. Its older style bulletin board style is almost conversational in style – you can respond to specific posts and make it clear what you are responding to – many prefer it to the newer phpBB bulletin boards.
And yes – railfans have been harassed so often that they have memorized the rules and carry copies of them in their camera bags. Whenever I ride the subway with intentions to take pictures I make sure a copy of the rules goes with me.
While this story has been reported here – NJT employees have been routinely hassling photographers – a while back a debate raged on railroad.net because a photographer was stopped from taking a video out the window of the train he was riding in. NJT employees who post to the site and know the rules tried to insist that “Publicly accessible” only applied to the platforms and not the interior of the train. Some even claimed that the conductor in charge of the train could overrule company policy if he saw fit to do so.
NJT employees even hassled a photographer who was using his commute time to review pictures he had taken elsewhere in the camera’s screen. He was told to put the camera away even though he was not taking pictures. This is not an isolated incident – take a picture on or of NJT and you will almost certainly be harassed at some point.
4 Duane Kerzic // Apr 16, 2009 at 5:48 PM
I’ve been approached by the NJ Transit cops a couple of times. It seems that NJ Transit Police Chief Bober has a thing about cameras, he doesn’t like them. He proposed a total ban on all photography in the system however the NJ State Legislature had decided in the past to define all publicly accessible portions of transit stations as public property. Chief Connell of the Cranford, NJ PD was sure to point this out NJ Transit, Chief Connell in his spare time runs Railpace magazine. The NJPPA, the NPPA and the NYPPA all joined in and submitted briefs about why NJ Transit couldn’t make the rule also. So it’s permissible to take photos of anything in the NJ Transit system that can be viewed from public property. This includes rail yards, equipment, the interior of the train cars, anything that can be seen from the windows of rail cars. Just like it’s supposed to be.
So needless to say NJT finally figured out they couldn’t ban photography and decided to go back to the theory that it was a normal and customary activity. Most of the officers that I’ve met have been well trained on the new rules but there are still some that want to make up the rules as they go along,
http://photos.duanek.name/gallery/7182784_k3KaU/1/461178783_6o5ct the story is in the captions of the photos.
and
http://photos.duanek.name/gallery/7627173_yKZAa/1/493162502_9XqJ3
The story during the second group is while taking those photos and standing in the street right of way next to the railroad right of way I was approached by a NJ Transit Cop. I was asked who I was. I said I didn’t want to identify myself and didn’t want to talk to her at all. She said her supervisor wanted to know who I was with and who I was. I said I don’t give a hoot what your supervisor wants. So then she give me the suspicious activity escalation.
To this I responded I think it’s a newswothy event when a train takes down the catenary wires and brings the busiest rail line in the US to a standstill for over 4 hours. I’m standing in the public right of way. I can’t think of anyone, other than you, that would find my behaviour anything other than normal and customary in this situation. Am I being detained? Am I free to go?
So then I was told I was standing there of my own free will and to be careful, have a nice night.
5 Voice of Reason // Apr 16, 2009 at 6:35 PM
Note to NYCPhotorights: I found the part about the photographer who was “stopped from taking a video out the window of the train he was riding in” interesting. Air marshals have apparently placed ordinary tourists on terrorist lists because they took snapshots out of plane windows during takeoff or landing. Sounds like the same sort of thing.
6 NYCPhotorights // Apr 16, 2009 at 8:04 PM
Duane – I don’t think Chief Bober carries much weight any more. He was forced to resign following a discrimination/harassment lawsuit that could end up costing NJT over $2 MILLION.
7 Duane Kerzic // Apr 16, 2009 at 8:33 PM
I had missed that Bober had been forced to resign. It was after my last interaction with them. I don’t know much about the new guy but I’m sure I’ve seen him. I guess that lawsuit was just the last straw of many.
8 Jim Maurer // Apr 21, 2009 at 11:28 PM
I visited NJ Transit in April of 2007. I found that the light rail operators would challenge me, but when I mentioned Warrington they would just sort of mumble something and then go back to operating the train.
At Newark Penn Station an Amtrak conductor wanted to see my ID, because after 9/11 you can’t be too careful. Shortly after that two other Amtrak employees came up in a golf cart and asked for my ID. When I reached into my pocket they started laughing and said they saw what happened with the conductor and they were just having some fun and to feel free to take all the pictures I wanted. The NJ Transit Police officers here ignored me.
At Hoboken Terminal two NJ Transit Police officers came up to me and started talking to me. They wanted to make sure I had photographed the new equipment that was parked outside for employee training, and talked to me about the 100th anniversary of the terminal and the renovation work being done to the ferry slips. They were very proud of Hoboken Terminal and wanted to share it with others.
I guess some of them aren’t as bad as others.
9 Peter Lyden // Jul 8, 2009 at 9:26 PM
My name is Peter Lyden. I’m a huge railfanner. Recently, I was riding on NJT to Summit, NJ on the afternoon of Wednesday July 8, 2009. I was told by an NJT conductor that I was not allowed to film onboard trains. Back in September 2008, I videotaped being onboard the train in Red Bank, NJ & once again, the NJT conductor told me that I wasn’t allowed to film onboard trains. Does NJT have a law against filming trains, do you need special permission to film trains, or what’s the deal here? Thank you!
10 NYCPhotorights // Jul 8, 2009 at 11:39 PM
Call NJT customer service and report the conductor (at least report the train you were on and let NJT sort it out). According to NJT photography is permitted in all publicly accessible areas. The train is certainly publicly accessible except when it is out of service.
11 Johnathan Munoz // Aug 17, 2009 at 8:07 PM
I’m 19 years old and my passion is in film making. Just yesterday, I was working on a short film about young teenagers and domestic violence for my church. One of the scenes take place at Rahway Train Station (NJT).
Then, as I was on the platform, with my two other “editing buddies”, setting up the camera to record the actors on the other side, a police officer approaches us saying, “No more, guys. I received two phone calls about the video taping, and also harassment.”
I am more than positive that NONE of my crew harassed anyone at the station. So, because of this incident, the officer asked for ID, a phone number, and asked us to stop filming. We obeyed the officer and moved on to the studio where a short film cannot be edited due to the missing shots.
I’m desperate to go back to the station but do not want to get arrested.. can I get a permit and finish the rest of the film without breaking the law? or should I not even worry about the permit and end the production with a couple more shots?
12 NYCPhotorights // Aug 17, 2009 at 10:01 PM
I’m sure you could get a permit if you have a $2 Million liability policy and wish to pay for official escorts, etc. Doesn’t hurt to ask though…
Technically NJT rules permit handheld photography by a single photographer. You had a crew and actors which may fall under their “commercial photography” rules. Good luck.
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