Photography is Not a Crime

94 responses so far ↓

• 1 Rafa // Apr 16, 2009 at 1:21 AM

  Why don’t you ever single out the good cops?

• 2 Duane Kerzic // Apr 16, 2009 at 1:59 AM

  Carlos,

  You know cops only get press when they do wrong. They don’t report this stuff about normal people, only cops.

  Well I think we do poing out what the good cops do also.

• 3 Andrew DeFilippis // Apr 16, 2009 at 3:54 AM

  Rafa

  This is a place to consolidate information on police officers and deputies that infringe on photographers rights.

• 4 John Hartley // Apr 16, 2009 at 4:12 AM

  Is this site becoming a ‘bash the cops’ site for every police misconduct?

  The police do a tough job, and yes there are a few bad eggs in the pile, but the majority do a fantastic job.

  It would be a shame to see this website turn into a ‘hate the police’ site instead of the well documented, and informative, site I believe it to be about the struggles of photographers and their rights.

• 5 genewitch // Apr 16, 2009 at 4:29 AM

  John: don’t be a cop apologist.

  Police et al are the ones infringing on the rights of photographers.

  and here’s a good cop story:
  Once i was lost and then i asked a cop where to go and he gave me directions. He was polite. The end.

• 6 the lone white boy // Apr 16, 2009 at 9:34 AM

  but carlos… these are just “isolated incidents”

  lol

• 7 jones // Apr 16, 2009 at 9:38 AM

  You should change the name of your website to “sour grapes”

• 8 B // Apr 16, 2009 at 9:39 AM

  Why don’t you write about what non-criminals do when they’re not being criminals?

  Yes, that’s sarcasm.

  For a police officer, who carries a taxpayer-funded weapon and draws a taxpayer-funded salary to protect the public, to be the very one to commit a crime is a serious breach of public trust. To operate without a proper review process is to deny that police officers are human and taints the good cops as well, something that makes it more difficult for them to do their job.

  Oh, and it does make sense, absolutely, to write about people who violate their professional duty: An accountant who embezzles? That’s news. A firefighter who is an arsonist? That’s news. A journalist who plagarized? That’s news. A cop who is a criminal. ABSOLUTELY that’s news.

• 9 bj // Apr 16, 2009 at 10:35 AM

  B wrote: “An accountant who embezzles? That’s news. A firefighter who is an arsonist? That’s news. A journalist who plagarized? That’s news. A cop who is a criminal. ABSOLUTELY that’s news.”

  Very well said!

• 10 Prichert // Apr 16, 2009 at 11:01 AM

  When did this site become an Anti-Cop site? Rather than a PRO Photography site?
  I’m a professional photographer and always appreciate the cases brought to light on this site. However, I’m not thrilled with the recent post of simply pointing out the misconduct in general of police across the board.
  Let’s keep this about photography and first amendment rights rather than point out a few bad apples that are spoiling the bunch.

• 11 Carlos Miller // Apr 16, 2009 at 11:16 AM

  So highlighting stories where cops have been accused or convicted of criminal acts makes me “anti-cop” or a “cop basher”?

  It is this type of apologist attitude why so many cops feel they are above the law.

  It reminds me of the people who accused me of hating my country because I spoke out against the Iraq War.

  If we hold cops to higher standards and make sure these stories get the publicity they deserve, then maybe some cops would think twice about abusing their authority.

  This site is a First Amendment/photography right but let’s not forget I started this site because I was arrested by a group of cops who abused their authority.

  And cops who abuse their authority against photographers are no different than cops who abuse their authority in other manners, as in the stories highlighted in this post.

  I didn’t make any of those stories up. I didn’t even write them.

  But I’m sure as hell not going to ignore them either.

• 12 jones // Apr 16, 2009 at 11:30 AM

  Carlos, most of the stories are about cops who are only accused of wrongdoing, and unlike you, have not been convicted of any crime. They are entitled to their day in court just like you. If they are guilty they deserve what they get.

  One of the stories, the drunk cop talking about the shooting victim, isn’t even a crime. As a matter of fact it’s a story about a man who is being punished by his employer for exercising his freedom of speech, his first amendment right, which is what your website is supposed to be all about. Or do you only believe in the 1st amendment when it fits your agenda?

• 13 Carlos Miller // Apr 16, 2009 at 11:37 AM

  Jones,

  While it is not illegal to mock a murder victim, it is unprofessional.

  It would be no different than if I were working for a newspaper and wrote about a cop getting shot, then later getting caught on video making fun of that cop.

  While it’s not illegal, it would sure affect my credibility as a professional journalist.

  I really don’t understand why people expect these stories to be covered up for the weak reasons you provided.

• 14 jones // Apr 16, 2009 at 11:38 AM

  The newest story on your police misconduct board is a story about “A federal appeals court has ruled that Nashville police can continue to release arrest records of people before they were convicted”

  Nashville police are posting mugshots of people arrested for prostitution and you think that belongs under police misconduct. You theink the police trying to deter prostitution is misconduct?

  If one of the officers that arrested you were arrested for anything I think his mugshot would be plastered all over your site.

• 15 jones // Apr 16, 2009 at 11:39 AM

  While it is not illegal to mock a murder victim, it is unprofessional.

  So if somebody is unprofessional they lose their first amendment rights?

• 16 Carlos Miller // Apr 16, 2009 at 11:41 AM

  Where did I say that, Jones?

• 17 Carlos Miller // Apr 16, 2009 at 11:47 AM

  The newest story on your police misconduct board is a story about “A federal appeals court has ruled that Nashville police can continue to release arrest records of people before they were convicted”

  I am not the one compiling the news feed

• 18 jones // Apr 16, 2009 at 11:51 AM

  I am not the one compiling the news feed

  Your posting them

• 19 ClintJCL // Apr 16, 2009 at 11:54 AM

  When an airplane crashes, why doesn’t the news talk about all the airplanes that don’t crash?

  When a bridge collapses, why don’t we talk about all the bridges that didn’t collapse?

  When a shooter kills people in a school, why don’t we talk about all the people who DIDN’T shoot anybody?

  When soldiers torture people in Gauntanimo, why don’t we talk about all the soldiers that DON’T torture somebody?

  I hope the above commenters realize how stupid they sound.

• 20 Carlos Miller // Apr 16, 2009 at 12:14 PM

  Jones,

  Then let’s stick to debating about the stories that I am posting. Not the ones that I am not posting.

  Regarding the story you mentioned about Nashville, I agree with the federal ruling because it falls on the side of a more open government rather than a closed government.

  I personally don’t believe the arrests of prostitutes and their johns is that newsworthy, but apparently people find that interesting.

  In fact, I believe prostitution should be legalized but that is another topic altogether (although I would love to hear what you guys think about that).

  So yes, I side with the federal ruling because if you start sealing arrest records, then when a big arrest happens, one that is actually newsworthy, you will be denied the records.

• 21 Hazy // Apr 16, 2009 at 12:26 PM

  I’ll tell you why people are sick of cops. It’s because the corruption has gotten so out of hand that your average citizen has to worry about being victimized by these assholes. Instead of going after criminals these parasites go after hard working citizens who they know will not give them trouble. I guarantee you that all they see us as are dollar signs.

• 22 Simon Jester // Apr 16, 2009 at 12:26 PM

  In my experience, the vast majority of cops are good guys. They care about their jobs, but as Clint above alludes to, it’s only the wrecks that you hear about.

  The memorial service for the three Pittsburgh officers recently killed in the line of duty drew little attention.

  http://www.wpxi.com/news/19126206/detail.html#-

  Police stopping a batshit crazy driver hell bent on escaping, no matter who’s lives she puts in danger made the local news, but since the police didn’t beat her when they pulled her, kicking and screaming, from the wreckage of her car, it won’t attract national attention.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoKZbOSvVa0&feature=channel

  And what about this cop? I love him. At a large protest, he’s not telling people they can or can not do things, he’s just telling them to be safe and have fun. He’ll never get an award for this work, but he should.

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9yIBOnbJjY

  Yes, bad cops ARE like plane wrecks; they are the ones you hear about. But like plane wrecks, they are the ones that cause the most damage. We can’t just roll our eyes at them and giggle about ‘boys being boys’. There are good cops, out there and they outnumber the bad ones. As long as we differentiate between them and let the good cops know we respect them, the bad ones will become more and more isolated.

  So yes, nail the bad ones. Put them on the spot. But make sure to tell the good ones that you are thankful for them and your respect the job that they do.

  At least that’s what I try to do.

• 23 ClintJCL // Apr 16, 2009 at 12:31 PM

  Very sensible, Simon.

• 24 Karl Mansoor // Apr 16, 2009 at 1:58 PM

  FYI regarding Simon Jester post #22

  The video clip posted of, “And what about this cop? I love him” involved LAPD Sergeant Wayne K. Guillary.

  Sergeant Guillary, based on his own personal account, had the unfortunate experience of being a victim of police misconduct.

  In his pursuit of seeking what he believes would be justice, he is running up against a Blue Wall.

  From the small window into his character based on the YouTube clip, his 27 year law enforcement career, his rank of police Sergeant and reading his version of his experience, I get the sense his claim has at least some merit. I can’t see him making wildly exaggerated claims.

  http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_W_wrace07.2a1d2b8.html

  http://www.pe.com/localnews/publicsafety/stories/PE_News_Local_S_guillary10.447fa68.html

• 25 Carlos Miller // Apr 16, 2009 at 2:18 PM

  Damn, Karl, that’s a crazy story.

  How did you make the connection between the video and the articles?

• 26 Karl Mansoor // Apr 16, 2009 at 2:44 PM

  From different sites that covered the incident including Five Before Midnight/River City CopWatch http://rivercitycopwatch.blogspot.com/

• 27 Peter // Apr 16, 2009 at 2:45 PM

  The problem with the good cops, is they aren’t publicly outraged by these stories. Their culture doesn’t allow them to criticize other cops. If I heard some outrage expressed, I would trust these cops more. Instead I feel their tacit support of the behavior. Until they differentiate themselves, they are ALL responsible for these bad deeds.

  Here is another website that hopes to improve police behavior: http://www.policeabuse.com/

• 28 genewitch // Apr 16, 2009 at 4:27 PM

  Not all cops are bad.

  A lot of people who have problems with police in general are the ones who get pulled over a lot, or arrested a lot. Now, sometimes (at least with the arrests), granted, there are economic and geographical reasons for getting arrested a lot – but generally, being an asshole and then saying the people who are putting you in check are assholes is just silly.

  Carlos had all of his charges dropped except for one, and that should have been dropped too, obviously.

  I’ve pleaded nolo contendre to a couple of crimes in my past, does that mean i don’t have the right to free speech (THE SAME RIGHT CARLOS HAS), jones? Just because i was convicted of a crime? Or, like always, is this just another example of the fact that you have no idea how to argue?

  Furthermore, if you don’t know how RSS feeds work, you need to look them up. Carlos does not control the RSS content. His webhost/server merely aggregates the content FOR posting. There’s no way to say “don’t post anything that has to do with cops in new brunswick ohio” or anything like that.

  I’m beginning to think that you’re an ignorant troll. I’ll withhold saying that outright for now.

• 29 genewitch // Apr 16, 2009 at 4:29 PM

  by the by, jones, et al should also look up “No true scotsman fallacy”

  It’s a common apologist stance in arguing about stuff like this. If you find yourself saying “what about all the good cops” you’re missing the point. Truly.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

• 30 Voice of Reason // Apr 16, 2009 at 5:23 PM

  This story plus thread is important. It’s a chance to zoom in on the key issue. There’s a complaint that apologists often make about this kind of thing. I’ve mentioned the complaint before, and I see that the apologists are out in full force to push it here. The thread is bristling with them. In my opinion, the complaint is nonsense, because it misses the point.

  The people I’m about to quote seem sincere. I don’t question that. I’m simply tired (quite tired after decades) of hearing things that miss the point.

  ClintJCL said, “When an airplane crashes, why doesn’t the news talk about all the airplanes that don’t crash?”

  John Hartley said, “Is this site becoming a bash the cops site for every police misconduct? The police do a tough job, and yes there are a few bad eggs in the pile, but the majority do a fantastic job.”

  Prichert said, “Let’s keep this about photography and first amendment rights rather than point out a few bad apples that are spoiling the bunch.”

  Rafa said, “Why don’t you ever single out the good cops?”

  Simon Jester, said “In my experience, the vast majority of cops are good guys. They care about their jobs, but as Clint above alludes to, it’s only the wrecks that you hear about… So yes, nail the bad ones. Put them on the spot. But make sure to tell the good ones that you are thankful for them and your respect the job that they do.” (I don’t question the last part at all.)

  Apologists of this type frequently use phrases like unfairly tarred by the same brush (not used so far in this thread), a few bad eggs, a few bad apples, etc. It’s one of the standard arguments.

  As a side note, it’s interesting to see that “jones” (who appears to be a retired LEO, though that’s only a guess) hasn’t raised the old a few bad apples argument so far, unless I’ve missed it. However, he’s also missed the point.

  The bad apples aren’t the point. Peter nailed it in post 27. The point is that there’s a “code”.

  The “code” says that bad things don’t happen, or they’re not important, or it’s wrong to talk about them, or the victims are “lowlifes”. For example, “she was asking for it”, or “he was black, so the sports drink in his hand might have been a gun”, or “she had a tramp-stamp”. When something bad happens, it’s standard operating procedure for the police and their apologists to make excuses, to cover it up, to make it go away. In fact, if you’re a LEO, and you talk about issues like this, unfortunate things might happen to you at work. This isn’t a rare or isolated thing. It’s every day. “jones” (and Ziggy, if you’re out there), do you deny this simple fact?

  The “code” is a cancer that eats away at justice. It can’t be ignored. Therefore, the “bad cop” stories can’t be ignored. The “good cops” defend the “bad cops” and cover-up for them. So regrettable incidents continue to happen.

  If the police (and the apologists) were to do away with the “code”, stories about individual officers would be nothing more than that. The actions of the “bad apples” wouldn’t reflect on the profession as a whole. However, if you look at some of these things and the way that they’re handled now, it should be obvious that we need to shine a light on every incident of this type. For Pete’s sake, there’s been two “throwdown” (planted weapon) stories recently, that’s one of the worst things that a cop can do, and nothing at all has happened to the officers involved. The “code”, the thing that says that things like sodomy with a plunger (think about the splinters), “throwdowns”, theft, coverups, and outright murder are O.K., has got to go.

  Is this “cop bashing” ? I don’t think so. Serpico, the anti-”code” cop who’s discussed in a recent posting on this site, is one of my heroes. And BTW “jones”, he’s a hero to some LEOs as well.

• 31 Voice of Reason // Apr 16, 2009 at 5:57 PM

  Note to “genewitch”: You said to “jones”, “I’m beginning to think that you’re an ignorant troll. I’ll withhold saying that outright for now.”

  “jones” is neither ignorant nor a troll. Trolls are insincere posters who are trying to be disruptive. “jones” appears to be a retired LEO (or similar type) who’s genuinely fed up with what he believes to be bias and ignorance on the part of people who “don’t know what it’s like” (just a guess at his thoughts).

  Additionally, it’s unfair to criticize people for things like ignorance related to RSS feeds. Yes, “jones” was presumptuous and I’ve criticized people for that myself. Posters should look at what’s actually happening before they weigh in. However, I’m intelligent and I’m still going to make that kind of mistake myself occasionally.

  I’ve always wanted to engage sincere LEOs and apologists. “jones” isn’t exactly an expert at debate (no offense intended). However, he’ll improve over time. Additionally, sincere people are important to forums of this type.

• 32 ALL BE DAMNED // Apr 16, 2009 at 6:20 PM

  Well it seems voice beat me to it again
  The people who appologize for what cops do usualy dont get that the cops answer to the public PERIOD. they need to be held to a higher standered all the way around and to be honest if a cop / sheriff / fedral agent is caught breaking the law they need to recive double or triple the punishment. AND if they cant handle it GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE JOB please dont call carlos a cop basher i have seen sevral articals here that he congratulates cops on doing a fine job others who are caught he throws them to the wolves ( US ) and thank god he does now i know what to look for in my officers around here.

• 33 genewitch // Apr 16, 2009 at 6:58 PM

  One of my favorite articles was about the cop on a bike.

  That wasn’t cop bashing!

• 34 Scott // Apr 17, 2009 at 11:58 AM

  Nice blog, Carlos. There used to be a blog called badcopnews that had news feeds of incidents nationwide. They put up about 15 stories a day. Every. Day. Too bad that site went down.

  Photography is not a crime indeed. At least not yet…..

• 35 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 18, 2009 at 5:28 PM

  Police Officers are suppose to be held to a higher standard..if anyone knows what molesting a 12 year old can get you, dont you think its a cop? The one mistake the naysayers of “bad cop stories” fail to recognize is “YOU PAY THESE GUYS” A portion of every dime JOE BLOW makes ,goes to ensure these guys have a good standard of living, health benefits and now a Retirement that would choke a horse.

  Can all the average citizens say they get that? Oh and the “ever-loving and faithful “cops are under stress” argument…that one slays me.

  They have no idea what stress is in this present economy, they still have their paychecks, benefits and new take home cars. I have never been one to begrudge a police officer his due,
  But for God’s sake..If there is one segment of a succesfull society that should know the ramifications for unlawful behavor, isnt it the POLICE?
  I am rather sick of PAYING for Questionable and or illegal behavor.
  In the big picture I know I couldnt be the only one..

• 36 jones // Apr 18, 2009 at 6:00 PM

  What slays me is the cries of “We pay your salary”, most of the time that claim comes from people who are living off the government.

• 37 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 18, 2009 at 6:04 PM

  In case you forgot genius “we the hard-working smucks” pay the government who pay the people “who are living off the Government”

  Take it to a completed thought , before you post..

• 38 jones // Apr 18, 2009 at 6:15 PM

  I’m sorry, I didn’t have time to complete my thought, I had to get to the bank to cash my pension check. BTW thanks for the raise, I get an automatic 4% cost of living increase in my pension every year, even in this economy.

• 39 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 18, 2009 at 6:49 PM

  Your a perfect ambassador for perpetuating the condemnation the public has for LE..what was your point? Why did you bother to post? Has LE left you with such contempt for the general public that you feel compelled to come onto a website and make comments to the very people who your brethren or maybe you have victimized? Your incognito here, can you honestly say with a straight face that (some) Law enforcement don’t behave badly towards an unsuspecting public?
  Your Pension my friend, is soon to go the way of the Carpenters Union Pension, the Pilots Pension, and a myriad of other so-called bullet-proof Pensions. Its economically not sustainable. Plus the backlash of the American Payer is gonna put a big dent in your 4% in just a matter of time.
  I know this is a foriegn concept to you..But you just remember “Jones” the only thing you come into this world with is your NAME and in the end, thats all you will take out. Its amazing what people will say or express when they dont have to attach their NAME to it.
  Its rather indictative of the type of man you are towards your family, your wife, your children and your neighbors behind closed doors when you think no one is watching. You dont sound like a very honorable man to me. Thats not an impression that many people want to impart, even ones behind screen names.

• 40 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 18, 2009 at 7:04 PM

  Bad cops are like sex offenders…they go to the wall for each other no matter what the offense was..amazing

• 41 jones // Apr 18, 2009 at 7:05 PM

  I don’t think law enforcement acts badly towards the unsuspecting public, some might act badly toward unsuspecting criminals but I have little sympathy for them.

  I like the general public, too bad I didn’t get to deal with them that much, most of the time we are dealing with the general criminals.

  I’m not too worried about my pension just yet, but believe me I am aware of the economy and the possibilities but fortunately for me I do not depend on my pension for living. As a matter of fact most of my pension is going toward putting my kids through college so maybe they should be thanking you to.

• 42 Voice of Reason // Apr 18, 2009 at 7:17 PM

  Note to Valerie Parkhurst: I read your original post on the other thread and I understand where you’re coming from. In fact, see my response to you on that thread, the posting about recording audio when you go outside from now on. Please pay attention to the warning that the recording device shouldn’t be something that you’ll need to reach for.

  That said, I’ve been trying to engage “jones” for a little while now and I believe that I know what he’s thinking.

  Sarcastic exchanges can be enjoyable for the participants, and sometimes they’re fun to watch, but you’re not taking advantage of the fact that you’ve already gone public with your situation. You’re qualified to debate specific points because you’ve got some experience with those points. Talk to “jones” about issues as seen from that perspective. Otherwise, he’ll believe that you’re simply ranting.

  Note to “jones”: You said, “What slays me is the cries of We pay your salary, most of the time that claim comes from people who are living off the government”.

  You know that’s a false statement. Statements of that type make you look silly.

  As a side note, you mentioned a “pension check”. This seems to confirm the guess I’ve posted elsewhere, which is that you’re a retired LEO.

  You could have addressed Ms. Parkhurst’s main point, the one regarding payment, without mocking her with the “4%” raise comment. You’re coming across as a stereotype, exactly the kind of person that Ms. Parkhurst believes LEOs to be (and she does have some justification for feeling as she does).

  “jones”, you’ve been unwilling to interact with me, but perhaps you’ll take a sincere suggestion. Why don’t you do exactly as I told Ms. Parkhurst to do and talk about things more specifically from your perspective? You’re a retired LEO, you’ve got some experience, you should be able to do better than this.

• 43 jones // Apr 18, 2009 at 11:31 PM

  Valerie, as a “hard working smuck” may I ask what do you do?

• 44 Voice of Reason // Apr 19, 2009 at 12:06 AM

  Note to “jones”: You were addressing Ms. Parkhurst. However, I can’t resist the temptation to offer a comment. “jones”, Ms. Parkhurst comes across a little bit as though she’s you on the other side.

• 45 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 19, 2009 at 5:53 AM

  I am a nurse .

• 46 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 19, 2009 at 6:45 AM

  To any Law Enforcement here:

  In some other professions where “liability” is a factor, there are continuing education courses that are mandated by each individual state.

  The one common thread that seems to tie many “misconduct cases” together is the “mis-interpretation” of the Law.
  In my state, if you ask 5 different police officers about the “castle doctrine” for instance, you will get 4 different versions. Not to mention that there has been ammendments to the doctine just in the past couple of years.
  Now, if you factor in the definitions of various laws along with any “changes” of those laws, along with a potential “cowboy mentality” I would venture that the liability may go up for a city if the officers themselves arent privy or up to date about a certain statute (s) ..Another words, if all officers are only required to do “range time” I would think their capacity to enforce the laws as they are written leaves too much up to personal discretion.
  In another words after reading and reading and reading about citizens horror stories and then the damages done to those citizens and the hoops they had to jump thru subsequently due to the police who obviously were not educated in the legal or civil rights of those citizens, it would just seem to make sense that police with all the power they “prescribe to themselves” would have some mandatory class time in a subject that so obviously enter mingles with their job description. No Yes.. sorry its early and I know I rambled on that post.

• 47 Mel // Apr 19, 2009 at 8:33 AM

  Here’s the video of Drunk cop mocking shooting victim: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kIH5EQeCSc

• 48 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 19, 2009 at 9:49 AM

  Here is video of cops shooting rubber bullets at woman protester

  and these guys call themselves MEN

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G63FEamhpA0

• 49 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 19, 2009 at 9:51 AM

  Hey Mel, I would be curious how that cop made it home that night????

• 50 sherri // Apr 19, 2009 at 12:26 PM

  There are police officers, and then there are ‘cops’ and there is definately a difference. The “would-be-criminals “adage seems to apply to the cop at the bar in Erie, making fun of a dying victim. Probation WITH pay is a laugh….a paid vacation…more like a pat on the back then a punishment, one I never understood. Without pay would be appropriate. And if he’s ‘aquitted’ after the ‘investigation’ (blue protecting blue…big deal, right?) then they can give him back pay. In the meantime, if he is found guilty (how can you dispute the video?) then it would be a tad difficult to take back what they paid him while they were investigating. So don’t pay him. Simple.

  Whadda world. And it’s only going to get worse. The unemployment rate makes people crazy, and the cops need to show even more self control then normal. And the criminal/cops don’t have the capacity to do that any more then the criminals themselves.

  And the good cops? They have to be even better…and there are a lot of good ones out there, I know. Though you wouldn’t know it from this site.

• 51 jones // Apr 19, 2009 at 1:44 PM

  http://www.topix.com/city/baton-rouge-la/2009/03/nurse-arrested-on-child-porn-charges

  http://www.jacksonvillecriminalattorneyblog.com/2009/03/florida_nurse_arrested_for_dui.html

  http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1708274/posts

  http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_11026752

  http://www.oag.state.ny.us/media_center/2001/may/may02c_01.html

  http://www.thecherokeean.com/news/2009/0128/front_page/002.html

  I typed in nurse arrested in google and came up with these. There are too many to post. Valerie thank you for opening my eyes. I never would have realized the nurse profession was so dirty if it wasn’t for this conversation with you. This is very scary stuff.

• 52 jones // Apr 19, 2009 at 1:52 PM

  Sherri said – And if he’s ‘aquitted’ after the ‘investigation’ (blue protecting blue…big deal, right?) then they can give him back pay. In the meantime, if he is found guilty (how can you dispute the video?) then it would be a tad difficult to take back what they paid him while they were investigating. So don’t pay him. Simple.

  So you want officer’s accused of misconduct to be guilty until proven innocent. You want them punished and then if proven innocent just give them their back pay no harm done.

  I don’t know about you but most of the cops I know don’t have thousands of dollars sitting around to live off of when they get suspended without pay.

  The officer your referring to in the video did nothing illegal. I would agree it was unprofessional but nothing he should lose pay over.

• 53 ClintJCL // Apr 19, 2009 at 2:02 PM

  Jones: And yet, police tend to inform employers about someone’s arrest, even if the arrest didn’t occur at their work. In many situations, including sensitive situations (like security clearances) and even not-so-sensitive situations, this results in people losing their jobs. Even if they are later found innocent.

  Funny how you LEOs have a double-standard. Jones, you just cried about a hypothetical unfair situation towards a police officer. Meanwhile, police do this to other people all the time.

  You also say “most cops I know don’t have thousands sitting around to life off of”. But meanwhile, anyone fired from their job for an arrest, even if innocent, faces the EXACT same situation.

  Wow, Jones. Sounds like you want the police to be able to mess someone else’s life up, but not vice versa. You want them to be above the law.

  It’s funny, Jones. You just whined about unfair treatment, and that’s the exact same treatment they disperse to others. You truly can’t see the forest from the trees.

• 54 jones // Apr 19, 2009 at 2:08 PM

  Clint – I can only speak for myself but I never called the employer of somebody I arrested and can’t think of a reason why I would.

  Even if the police did that any punishment the employer handed down would be up to them not the police. In most cases I don’t think somebody should be suspended without pay for being arrested, they deserve to be paid until they are convicted.

• 55 ClintJCL // Apr 19, 2009 at 2:17 PM

  Unfortunately the situation isn’t played out 100% in either direction — some people face early penalty in the court of public opinion due to their arrests and such being publicized, and others don’t.

  I’d like to see it done 100% consistently one way or the other (preferably the Innocent Until Proven Guilty route), but it’s not.

• 56 sherri // Apr 19, 2009 at 2:57 PM

  You’re correct of course. Photography is not a crime. Still, I wonder how you’d feel if it was your loved one being made fun of, especially if like the cop mocking him, he was innocent of a crime (he too, had not been tried and found guilty of anything….”allegedly” being the word.

  He SHOULD be suspended without pay…just because what he did, while not illegal, is morally repungnant….it’s not about guilt or innocence…it’s about right and wrong. And what he did was wrong. Period.

• 57 Voice of Reason // Apr 19, 2009 at 7:45 PM

  Note to “jones”: You said, So you want officers accused of misconduct to be guilty until proven innocent. You want them punished and then if proven innocent just give them their back pay no harm done.

  I happen to agree with part of your point. Additionally, I have the sense that you’ll dodge me if I try to engage you. However, I feel the need to respond to the remark quoted above. Specifically, to the if proven innocent part.

  In point of fact, no matter what happens in a given situation or what the ultimate determination is WRT responsibility, it’s not unusual for officers to be granted back pay or things like “medical retirements” in exchange for going away quietly. In some cases, it’s done whether or not the officers’ actions were appropriate. This happened in the Tyisha Miller case that I wrote about on the first Pataky thread.

  And, by the way, as far as I know, I answered every question and addressed every point that you raised to me on that thread. It took quite a bit of research, but I believe that I covered everything. I noticed that you didn’t have much to say after that.

  Additionally, I studied the issues that you raised on the James Manship thread carefully and posted a detailed analysis that addressed every significant point. I’d have been interested in your response to my analysis.

  Regrettably, I can’t link to the latter thread, because the presence of a second link would trigger Mr. Miller’s spam filter. However, interested readers may enter the words James Manship in Mr. Miller’s search box. The March 28th, 2009 entry on the resulting list contains the thread in question.

• 58 Voice of Reason // Apr 19, 2009 at 8:43 PM

  Related note to Carlos Miller: Perhaps you’d consider raising the spam threshold from one link to two (assuming that this is possible). I seem to recall that the sample spam you provided me with recently contained numerous links. I haven’t double-checked this. If that’s the way that spammers do things these days, the distinction between one link and two may not be as significant now as it used to be.

• 59 jones // Apr 19, 2009 at 8:50 PM

  In point of fact, no matter what happens in a given situation or what the ultimate determination is WRT responsibility, it’s not unusual for officers to be granted back pay or things like “medical retirements” in exchange for going away quietly. In some cases, it’s done whether or not the officers’ actions were appropriate. This happened in the Tyisha Miller case that I wrote about on the first Pataky thread.

  Sure that happens sometimes, just like cities pay people off who are suing them even though the people suing are wrong. It’s cheaper and easier to pay somebody off rather then fight it. It happens both ways.

• 60 jones // Apr 19, 2009 at 8:55 PM

  Valerie sure has been quiet since I revealed the dark side of the nursing profession. These are people who’s sole job is to help people and to abuse that trust like that is despicable.

• 61 Voice of Reason // Apr 19, 2009 at 9:00 PM

  Note to “jones”: Thanks for responding.

• 62 Voice of Reason // Apr 19, 2009 at 9:06 PM

  Note to “jones”: BTW, “jones”, if you’re making an ironic point (as in post 58 on this thread), and it’s not your attention to mock somebody (for example, Ms. Parkhurst), you should consider adding an emoticon. For example:

• 63 jones // Apr 19, 2009 at 10:15 PM

  Voice, I’m not mocking her, I’m thankful for her because she has opened my eyes. I use to trust doctors and nurses, now I know better.

  BTW I don’t know how to do those smiley faces.

• 64 Voice of Reason // Apr 19, 2009 at 10:42 PM

  Disregard this message.

• 65 Voice of Reason // Apr 19, 2009 at 10:51 PM

  Note to “jones”: You said, I don’t know how to do those smiley faces.

  For a regular smile, type colon dash right-parenthesis, or : – ) without spaces:

  For a wink, type semicolon dash right-parenthesis, or ; – ) without spaces:

  For an unhappy expression, type colon dash left-parenthesis, or : – ( without spaces:

  For a blank or neutral expression, type colon dash vertical-bar, or : – | without spaces:

  This is simply FYI for the benefit of anybody who might be interested. There’s no formal rules related to the use of emoticons, but they’re considered polite in some contexts. Obviously, overuse should be avoided.

• 66 Karl Mansoor // Apr 20, 2009 at 12:40 AM

  Hi Jones,

  In reference to post #51, I really think you should lighten up for these reasons:

  Nurses, while having a position of great responsibility, as do people in many other professions, do not have the authority and ability to deprive people of their Constitutional rights. They also do not have the ability to inflict deadly force, or any degree of government authorized force, on people in an arrest situation. You won’t find nurses pulling people over or busting down doors in the name of the government. If a nurse does behave inappropriately towards a patient, the government won’t fight like hell to back him or her up and try to convict whoever is making the complaint. Furthermore, if someone does not like the medical service they receive from a nurse, doctor, or whoever, they can go elsewhere for better service. You can’t do that with an abusive cop.

  You also said in post #41, “I don’t think law enforcement acts badly towards the unsuspecting public, some might act badly toward unsuspecting criminals but I have little sympathy for them.”

  You have implied you are a retired LEO. Are you honestly saying you believe there are no police officers who abuse their authority, lie, use excessive force, or in some manner engage in official misconduct at least on occasion towards innocent civilians?

  In however many years you were a LEO, if in fact you were a LEO, you never saw or heard of any significant misconduct in your agency? Is that what you are saying?

  And in reference to the second part of your statement in post #41 from which I quoted above; generally on the street, police officers deal with suspects. That is, they have not been convicted in a court of law and are therefore presumed innocent. So, are you saying that some police behave badly to people who are to be presumed innocent until found guilty in a court of law (Some of whom are never convicted or found not guilty)?

  Is it appropriate for officers to behave “badly” towards them?

• 67 jones // Apr 20, 2009 at 1:30 AM

  Karl, you make it sound like cops can do whatever they want without consequences. Look at how many cops have been fired, prosecuted and sent to prison. I don’t know where the myth started that cops never get in trouble when they do something wrong but they do.

  So your saying it’s not a big deal for a nurse to kill somebody because they don’t work for the government? I take my kids to the hospital for medical treatment and they get molested and that isn’t a big deal because doctors and nurses don’t have the authority to make arrests?

  You can go elsewhere if your not happy with the service they provide? In some cases yes but in some cases no, I don’t think a car accident victim gets to pick what hospital they are rushed to. Besides reading some of those articles it is little comfort to know if I’m not happy with the way a nurse killed my loved one or molested my child I don’t have to go back to them.

• 68 jones // Apr 20, 2009 at 1:39 AM

  Karl, are you telling me that in your career you’ve never seen an officer falsely accused of misconduct. You’ve never had a citizen come in to make a complaint that you knew was a lie? You’ve never seen an officer accused of excessive force when you knew the amount of force was appropriate? Is that what you are saying?

• 69 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 20, 2009 at 6:21 AM

  Jeez Jones, unlike yourself, some of us took time before a new work week to enjoy the pool, rib-eyes and margurita’s with family and friends. You do have friends right Jones? Not sure where you are but it was a gorgeous day here in sunny South Florida and I make it a point not to eat up my day sparring with guys like you.
  You remind me of the cop I wrote about the other day at lunch…you know the ones who like to blow someone else’s candle out, so their’s shines brighter? But couldnt couldnt look you straight in the face while doing it? Careful Jones, your GED is showing.
  Now I cant wait for a response Jones, some of us have to go to work to pay for those “misconduct Judgements” the city is up to their eyeballs in so dont get your panties in a twist if I dont respond as fast as you would like…you got the entire day to play on the public’s dime..enjoy yourself..

  You could go have a two hour lunch at the Mexican place with the local uniforms and talk about the old days and how much fun it was when you could actually get away with abusing the public.. before those pesky video cameras ……just a thought..

• 70 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 20, 2009 at 6:32 AM

  Sorry you went to all that trouble googling “nurses” I make it a hardfast rule never to open a link from a guy who would rather beat me with his nightstick than have a normal dialogue …

• 71 jones // Apr 20, 2009 at 11:39 AM

  Jeez Jones, unlike yourself, some of us took time before a new work week to enjoy the pool, rib-eyes and margurita’s with family and friends.

  Is it a new week? It’s hard to keep track when you don’t have to be at work Monday morning.

  Sorry you went to all that trouble googling “nurses” I make it a hardfast rule never to open a link from a guy who would rather beat me with his nightstick than have a normal dialogue

  It wasn’t much trouble, it isn’t hard to find nurse misconduct. Since you didn’t get a chance to read them I’ll help you out. The first one is about a nurse arrested for child porn, enough said.

  The next one is about an alcoholic nurse who was arrested for driving with a blood alcohol level of .314. Now as a nurse you should know that is extremely high. Most people wouldn’t even be able to get to that level without passing out but this alcoholic nurse was able to operate a vehicle. Makes me wonder how many times she came to work drunk and nobody noticed or cared. The worst part about it is she was actually supposed to be working at the time, Police say she was supposed to be watching a 15 month old child with medical needs, but left the child alone. The article goes on to say that she will be allowed to continue nursing, barring an emergency restriction being placed on her license. That seems reasonable, nurse abandons 15 month old child who she is caring for medically to go get her drink on and is back to work the next day. This one happened in Florida, maybe she’s a friend or co-worker of yours?

  The next one is about a nurse who murdered a patient because they didn’t like each other in high school.

  The one in Denver is about a nurse who stole fentanyl and replaced it with saline solution. An estimated 350 patients underwent surgery after being given the saline solution when they thought they were being given fentanyl.

  Here is a cut and paste on the next one, Attorney General Spitzer today announced that a licensed practical nurse, already under arrest for withholding medication and treatment from patients, has been charged with failing to provide treatment to an elderly female patient at the Episcopal Church Home in Rochester, and then falsifying the patient’s medical chart to cover up her neglect.

  Here is the kicker, Spitzer said, “Shortly after being fired from an Ontario County nursing home for neglecting patients there, Allen crossed the county line and took a similar position at a Rochester facility, where she is accused of doing the same thing. How many people does she have to victimize before they do something about it.

  The last one is about a school nurse arrested for sexual assault of child.

  Now we can stop wondering why health care in this country is such a joke. We are paying for all the lawsuits that these nurses cause.

• 72 Karl Mansoor // Apr 20, 2009 at 2:25 PM

  Jones,

  I suspect you are in denial and I don’t mean the river in Egypt. Here is why I get that strong impression.

  In my comment #66, I asked you to clarify simple questions based on the content of many of your posts and you completely evaded the questions.

  Even though I was very clear in my statements I will try to help you understand. I will show you how to clarify positions and directly answer questions.

  From the implications and queries of your post #67, in order, here are my direct responses:

  1. I am not saying, and have never said, all “cops” can do whatever they want without consequences. I am saying some law enforcement officers engage in various acts of misconduct including, but not limited to, lying, excessive force, and general abuse of citizens.
  2. I know that some LEOs are fired, prosecuted or otherwise held accountable for misconduct. I also know that sometimes they are not. Sometimes the Code of Silence is enacted and/or departmental politics and cronyism come into play. Some agencies vigorously hide misconduct or downplay it to keep up the department image.
  3. I am not aware of any “myth” that LEOs “never get in trouble.”
  4. In addition to your other evasions, here is where you really did a 180 to avoid answering direct questions. I never said, “it’s not a big deal for a nurse to kill somebody” whether they work for the government or not. In fact I acknowledged that medical professionals, along with other professionals, have a high degree of responsibility. I presumed, evidently incorrectly, that that specific point needed no further explanation. Please read my comments again in #66, relating to nurses, and try to understand I was primarily illustrating the difference between one who has significant power and authority derived from a behemoth and sometimes oppressive government vs. someone privately employed with no government backing. …and let’s be realistic here, how many times is a nurse, during the course of her, or his, “on duty time,” going to threaten someone with deadly force if they don’t do one thing or another?

  In post #68, again I see you are evading openly admitting to the honest and painful truth, that there are LEOs who engage in misconduct and sometimes get away with it. However, I will directly answer your question.

  You said, “are you telling me that in your career you’ve never seen an officer falsely accused of misconduct. You’ve never had a citizen come in to make a complaint that you knew was a lie? You’ve never seen an officer accused of excessive force when you knew the amount of force was appropriate? Is that what you are saying?”

  Jones, come on now, you know I never said anything like that. Those issues are not even the point. But just to make you feel better – and truthfully – of course I have seen “an officer falsely accused of misconduct!” Of course some citizens make false complaints and yes I have had citizens lie about me and yes I have seen officers falsely accused of excessive force. Those are some of the reasons why I am a strong proponent of video and audio taping of all police encounters with the public. That is why I begged my Lieutenant to give me one of the new video camera systems when my last agency was upgrading. That is why I carried a tape recorder with me at all times and used it. Video and audio recordings are good tools for the police and the public.

  But you know what Jones? I have also seen many officers flat out lie about their dealings with the public and I have seen administrators back up those lies. I know of many officers and supervisors who have engaged in all types of misconduct for which they were not held accountable and I am fully aware of the prevalence of the Code of Silence.

  Jones, you choose to remain anonymous therefore I cannot really give much weight to some of your statements. That can be said of any anonymous poster so please don’t feel as though you are being singled out.

  You strongly suggest or claim outright that you are a retired LEO. Maybe that is true and maybe not. But if you spent any reasonable amount of time at all on the street in a sworn capacity you would be living in self-denial if you refused to acknowledge that at the very least there are some officers out there who can respond to an otherwise mundane arrest or even a non-arrest situation and screw everything up resulting in much use of force that otherwise would not be necessary.

  If you had even a lick of legitimate police experience you would have to admit that some officers abuse their authority – if you were to be honest.

  If you claim otherwise, the only other answer I can come up with is that you must have worked in some fairy tale agency.

  If you had such a magnificent career worthy of emulation in such an ethical paradise of an agency, why not name this model agency and put your true name out?

  I suspect you will come up with some excuse not to, or ignore the question altogether.

  Jones, take cover because here comes a shotgun blast.

  Jones, some of my background is out there and available on open source. Some of it is out there because others have reported about me and some of it I put out via my website and blog for a reason. Publicly accessible information about my background in law enforcement remains incomplete and needs clarification but I am working on changing that. Not because I am special or because I have all the answers – I am not and I don’t. I do however have some very important observations to convey.

  Jones, I worked in two police agencies in Virginia. Mostly I worked uniform patrol – answering calls for service. I also was a defensive tactics instructor and a firearms instructor. I conducted background investigations for new hires as needed in my last agency and I taught within the department and occasionally at the police academy but most often I was in patrol. I have trained with many officers from many jurisdictions including from other states. I have very close family members in a very large law enforcement agency on the other side of the country. I still have close friends in law enforcement. My State instructor certifications are still valid and I still teach firearms and defensive tactics, albeit not often, but often enough to be in tune with current law enforcement issues. Two of my partners have been shot and killed in the line of duty, one from each department at which I worked. Another officer I know and with whom I trained – a DT instructor – was shot and killed in the line of duty. I have been attacked by suspects and I have been in many deadly force situations. If you were a LEO you should know what I mean. The potential is always there. I have been in “fear for my life,” to use the term so often used by LEOs.

  My job performance evaluations were excellent and in videotaped sworn depositions my Chief had to admit I was a good officer even though he may not have wanted to do so because I chose to speak up about misconduct (Long story that will come out later).

  It may not be much in the eyes of some, but I worked in law enforcement in a variety of capacities and long enough to know that police misconduct, abuse of authority, and the Code of Silence is a significant problem which remains inadequately addressed. My experience and documented evidence tells me it is part of police culture. My family members in the large agency on the other side of the country say it is there also and in surrounding agencies. Other LEOs from a variety of agencies will acknowledge such to other LEOs, as they have done to me, but not to the general public.

  Many LEOs may not like to hear that but it is true.

  I could also give you Department of Justice statistics to back up claims about the Code of Silence and police misconduct but you may not want to see those.

  None of this is meant to slam LEOs across the board. There are many good LEOs out there but that is not the point. The point is to address the issues with the bad ones. They are dangerous for our society and dangerous and an impediment for the competent and ethical LEOs.

  If you are driving a car and get a flat tire you don’t spend all day singing the praises of the three that remain inflated. You get out of denial and deal with the problem.

• 73 Voice of Reason // Apr 20, 2009 at 3:04 PM

  Note to “jones”: You said, Karl, you make it sound like cops can do whatever they want without consequences. Look at how many cops have been fired, prosecuted and sent to prison. I don’t know where the myth started that cops never get in trouble when they do something wrong but they do.

  The issue isn’t that cops never get in trouble. Obviously, you’re correct about that part of it. The issue is that, no matter what an officer does, no matter what the circumstances are, other officers are likely to support the officer involved and even to cover-up the things that happened.

  They’ll delay writing reports until everybody can “get their stories together”. Then they’ll work on the stories. Occasionally the city will bring in an attorney to coordinate things. Different templates are used for different types of incidents. If one template isn’t going to work, people brainstorm until they can find one that’ll pass muster.

  This is normal and expected behavior. If a well-intentioned officer doesn’t go along with it, he’s likely to be punished. True or false?

  They’ll mock the victim. They’ll make light of shootings, even the shootings of startled mothers cooking dinner in front of their toddlers. Race-based humor is common. If an unarmed Asian man is shot, they’ll make Kung Fu jokes. If a sleeping black girl is killed, they’ll say things like “It’s like Gorillas in the Mist here”. True or false?

  If an officer is tried (and this seems to be rare unless circumstances are over the top, or there’s video, or Internal Affairs is involved), fellow officers are likely to attack the victim in the media.

  Even if it was sodomy with a wooden object. Or a torture killing where a victim who’d been restrained begged, on video, not to be killed. Even if the victim said, “Stop, please don’t kill me, I’ve got a family”, fellow officers will support the perpetrator. They’ll say that the victim was “asking for it”. True or false?

  I’m referring to something that other posters have talked about quite frequently, though they haven’t referred to it formally. It’s probably the most important factor in all of this, because it’s the factor that makes trust difficult or impossible. I’m talking about the “code”.

  Until the “code” is abolished, LEOs won’t receive the respect that some of them deserve because, quite frankly, the existence of the “code” means that there’s no basis for trust.

  It’s not about the “few bad apples” that LEOs always (and I do mean always) talk about. It’s not about “tarring everybody with the same brush”. It’s about the “code”. It’s about the fact that LEOs as a group tolerate the “bad apples”, cover-up for them, and attack the victims.

• 74 Voice of Reason // Apr 20, 2009 at 3:37 PM

  Note to Valerie Parkhurst: You said to “jones”, I make it a hardfast rule never to open a link from a guy who would rather beat me with his nightstick than have a normal dialogue.

  It’s clear that the two of you aren’t going to have a normal dialogue. However, try to understand that “jones” isn’t (or doesn’t appear to be) a troll (insincere poster) or a basher (limited-intelligence automaton). He believes that you’re naive and that you don’t understand the way that things really are. Obviously, you feel the same way from the other direction.

  If the two of you were able to have a dialogue at all (whether or not it was a normal dialogue), the results might be interesting.

  I should add that, based on the “nurse” stories that “jones” has been posting, he’s missed the point. He’s trying to make the few bad apples argument that I’ve written about elsewhere. My analysis is located at this link. “jones” has approached things differently, but it’s the same argument.

  The point that “jones” is missing is that LEOs have a “code”. It’s part of the culture, it’s pervasive, and it’s every day. You can use the few bad apples argument WRT nurses. Because of the “code”, “jones” can’t use the few bad apples argument WRT the police.

• 75 Voice of Reason // Apr 20, 2009 at 4:25 PM

  Note to Karl Mansoor: You were addressing “jones”. However, if you don’t mind, I’d like to respond to a few of your points.

  You said, I am fully aware of the prevalence of the Code of Silence. Thanks for being open about this issue. I believe that the subject deserves wider attention. As it stands, this kind of discussion is usually limited to Hollywood movies where the noble cop (imagine Bruce Willis) goes up against corrupt superiors, it’s all black and white, “get out of my office”, there’s lots of gunfire, everybody eats their popcorn, the bad guy falls down, and the whole thing is dismissed after people leave the theater. The reality is more mundane, but it happens, and it has serious consequences for society as a whole.

  You said, my Chief had to admit I was a good officer even though he may not have wanted to do so because I chose to speak up about misconduct. As a side note to “jones” and others, this appears to be exactly the kind of thing that I’ve spoken about on several occasions.

  You’ve questioned “jones’s” credentials. My sense is that he is, in fact, a retired LEO. If he isn’t in this category, he’s identifying with LEOs in an oddly detailed way. If you read some of his older postings, this should be clear.

  My own feeling is that it isn’t necessary to pin “jones” down on this issue, because he only uses the “because I’ve been there” argument occasionally. In particular, I don’t believe you should insist that “jones” provide his real name. That’s the kind of thing a Bruce Willis type does. You’ve done so. Did you look up to Serpico when you were younger? Not everybody is comfortable with that level of commitment.

  Regarding “jones’s” evasiveness, yes, he does tend to disengage when he’s confronted with specifics. However, if he is, in fact, a retired LEO as opposed to somebody who identifies with that group, his perspective on specific issues would be invaluable. If he’s reading this, and if he is part of LEO society, I encourage him to engage you. This would make it easier for civilians to understand that LEOs aren’t a monolithic blue block that should be stereotyped and dismissed on that basis.

• 76 Karl Mansoor // Apr 20, 2009 at 5:21 PM

  Hello Voice of Reason,

  I do not consider myself a Hollywood type or a hero.

  I experienced a variety of emotions while taking a stand against misconduct over the course of several years. Never was there a sense of bravery. It was primarily fear and much uncertainty as to whether or not the path I chose was correct. I was often angry about the prevalence of misconduct and efforts towards covering up. I was dejected over the loss of friends within the agency although they were of the fair-weather type. In the long run those were no great loss. I retained a few strong close friends who also did not approve of the wide-spread misconduct and who periodically stuck their neck out only to be forced to yank it back in.

  I retain much of those same emotions and thoughts and bravery still remains absent.

  I do not consider others in law enforcement who choose not to speak up about the Code of Silence as non-heroes.

  I am however, more than disappointed with LEO’s who refuse to acknowledge the truth.

  If someone wants to reveal their identity or not, that is up to them. I personally become skeptical of at least some claims by those who choose to remain anonymous. It depends on what is being claimed.

  Whether or not someone is a LEO or not is not what was of primary relevance to me in these discussions.

  What becomes more relevant is someone who claims LEO status but is reluctant to acknowledge an obvious truth.

  Out of all the LEO’s I know personally, I know of not one who can honestly claim there is no Code of Silence.

• 77 Voice of Reason // Apr 20, 2009 at 5:58 PM

  Note to Karl Mansoor: Thanks for your response (post 76 on this thread). It addresses some important points from a LEO’s perspective. I’d advise future posters on this site to link to the post in question when there’s a dispute about this kind of thing. In fact, posters on other sites should link to your posting as well. For reference purposes, here’s a copy of the link:

  A LEO talks about the Code of Silence

• 78 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 20, 2009 at 8:09 PM

  Voice of Reason.. I have been on the internet a long time…and I am one tough broad…I dont know any one who does their homework or that is active as I am in sex offender issues…which by the way, is a tough fight…When my own poilice department did this to me….all I can tell you is my heart has been broken, my spirit has benn disintergrated,,,it took me an hour after crying to come back here and respond and I am not sure how I am going to do..
  I was always the good guy…I loved my poilice department, my guys guys were the cream of the crop. Thats not bullshit my cops were the most respected and loved of any PD in Florida…We would go to the wall for our Police department…I had done that day what i had done for 18 years…Dale Weeks had moved into my neighborhood and had a rapsheet that would choke a horse…I did what I always did and printed out his flyer and distributed to the immediate people around him….please trust me…this was a bad guy…he had 24 pages of criminal history that in my mind didnt warrant him living with MY kids. Not to mention his crimes were so heinous that Florida Law was changed to incorporate his particular case. This guy got pissed off I was on him and handed out his flyers…He stalked me for three hours until he managed to get me on a dead end street and came after me….I did not have a weapons permit.

  But what I did have was a Glock in a legal holster in my center console (that was not concealed) plus a twenty guage in a case sitting in the passenger seat…that I use to target shoot every Tues night here in SF…I am a good shooter, I hunt and shoot on a regular basis…
  Dale Weeks followed me for 3 hours until he got me on a dead end street and backed my car into a position where I could not move it unless I barrelled into him…I knew his picture, I knew his criminal history from the research I had done before…I still was amazed the guy had the balls to come after me…

• 79 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 20, 2009 at 8:31 PM

  I got out of my car (with no weapon) and said “you will go to jail for this shit, your a convicted rapist” Now move your car…
  He got out of his car, with a revoked drivers license by the way, and proceeded to say ” you fucking cunt” right then I knew the threat had escalated…I pulled the Glock and told him if he takes another step towards me which he was doing (by the way) I would shoot him and not hink twice…he stopped his passenger a female..was trying to drag him back in the car…she succeeded he must of had second thoughts because he came at me again and stopped his car even closer…In my mind I thought if the Glock didnt stop him before, the shotgun would, I pulled the shotgun…and again as he was coming toward me… threatened to shoot him….the female was going nuts at this time and dragged him away….The Davie Police were now coming into view, I suppose someone had called them, I dumped my purse out after the secons assault and when 911 answered I said and I quote “they are here it ‘s ok”

• 80 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 20, 2009 at 8:40 PM

  My own police department arrested ME… ME for God’s sake….I had to jump thru the hoops of 2 assault s with a deadly weapon and failure to have aconsealed weapons permit….that 3and !/2 to five years… meanwhile my face was plastered all over the local news…I got threats and CONTINUE to get threats from every convicted sex offender in the country…they threw poison meat over my fence and poisoned my prize bird dog….and now I have the same police department making fun of the arrest and pulling the “I’ll find out where you live bullshit” because I have a hair up my ass…..I dont think so….so you tell “Jones” that I dont quite get his hard-on for people like me…Tell Jones to do a google search on a police department that is totally out of control…Tell Jones he can kiss my ass…

• 81 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 20, 2009 at 8:43 PM

  Oh by the way while they were arresting me? between the two of them they had three outstanding warrants…real sweet police work…and let them go…….let them gooooo

• 82 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 20, 2009 at 8:56 PM

  Mean while Dale Weeks has been arrested again for ribbing a bar in Martin county,,,

  Thats what I love about police misconduct, they throw the bad guys onto another department to deal with…

• 83 Karl Mansoor // Apr 20, 2009 at 9:12 PM

  Valerie,

  I read the memorandum of deviation. I don’t blame you for being upset.

  http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:5ESTrUO5ItIJ:jaablog.jaablaw.com/files/34726-32374/10_20_Life_Dev_MemoValerieParkhurst.doc+Valerie+Parkhurst&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

• 84 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 20, 2009 at 9:30 PM

  Thank you Karl ,thank you from the bottom of my heart…I have always tried to do the right thing…and this police department turned my world upside down….I trust a cop as far as I can throw them at this point……but I promise you if there is one broad who can get a decent police department back it will be me… and I have no qualms about taking down police officers at this point…and I promise you this…if the city wants to settle, and you can bank on the city wanting to settle with me….I will take those cops jobs and retirement with me…

• 85 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 20, 2009 at 9:47 PM

  If there is one aspect of my fight now…its the fact cops cant be stupid when it comes to the public….the only way you can do that…is to take the cop down with you….I dont need the money, what I need is justice….and those cops that day that did to me will regret the day they took a law abiding citizen who was only looking out for thier mother’s, thier wives, and their daughters safety because shift change was coming up in an hour…The state attorney’s office was so outraged at what was done to me…they apologized for 30 minutes after the depo…I will take those cops down…bank on it…

• 86 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 20, 2009 at 9:59 PM

  Oh and the real important thing I left out…I come from a family of Cops…I was and am engaged to a Federal Agent the afternoon of my arrest…..they want this thing to go away…I am refusing….I want this to play out….just to see how dirty uniforms are….

• 87 Voice of Reason // Apr 20, 2009 at 10:47 PM

  Note to Valerie Parkhurst: You have my sympathy.

  As far as “jones” goes, you’ve upped the ante. When he’s confronted with this kind of thing, issues that impact the lives of real people, he usually disengages. If it’s because he’s uncomfortable talking about issues after he starts to see them from other points of view, this might be an indication that he has a conscience. Or it might mean that he’s afraid of losing a debate.

  You must be aware that Karl Mansoor, who you’ve just addressed and said thanks to, is a LEO. Additionally, you “come from a family of Cops”. Therefore, you’re aware that individual LEOs aren’t necessarily corrupt or without a conscience. You’ve also said that somebody at the state level has apologized to you. That’s encouraging. There’s some serious problems with the system. Mr. Mansoor could tell you more about one issue. That said, is it possible that you might be able to work with some of the LEOs or officials that you know and respect to defuse the situation?

  If the answer is no, I stand by the advice that I’ve posted before. I’ll emphasize two points: Don’t use any kind of recording device that you’d need to reach for. That would be extremely foolish. Additionally, if the police try to confiscate the recording device, don’t resist them. Instead, provide Mr. Miller with the details. Seizure or destruction of photos, cameras, recording devices, etc., is exactly the kind of story that he covers, and his site has started to attract some attention.

  When I’ve suggested (or at least implied) that there’s not much point to boxing matches that aren’t likely to resolve anything, I’ve meant no disrespect to anybody involved. However, I have also been around “a long time”. If I told you when I received my first E-mail address, you might find it surprising. I’ve watched this kind of thing since before the modern Internet or the golden age of BBSes. One thing I’ve noticed over the years is that flame wars rarely accomplish anything.

  Additionally, echo chambers, where everybody is required to have the same opinions, are pointless. If you visit some of the sites that have criticized Mr. Miller (he’s self-confident enough that he’s linked to them), you’ll find echo chambers of this type. They’re never going to accomplish anything. If Mr. Miller’s site continues to attract a diverse crowd, some good may come of it.

• 88 Valerie Parkhurst // Apr 22, 2009 at 6:45 AM

  Thank you…I am sorry I got harsh in an open forum..when I think everything is getting back to a level playing field in my head I realize its not. I continue to read about some of the misconduct cases in my Police department and it just drives it all home again…When a Police Officer states “I’ll find out where you live” that rumbles the anger up again.
  I know at some point I will have to come to terms with this in a more rational way. Regardless of how this plays out. My department is showing a pattern of bad conduct. I can only imagine what is NOT making the Papers. Davie has gotten so bad even other police departments are distancing themselves from them.
  I agree about the “flame Wars” ..
  I did some research after I posted the “continuing education” question. I found lots of companies offering their services, many for higher ups and most recently on-line accredited courses. Anyway, what ever is being offered is obviously not enough and it would seem that a golden carrot should be offered for those departments that keep a clean and healthy attitude towards their public.
  Its apparent doing the “right thing” for the sake of doing the “right thing” isnt working.

• 89 Voice of Reason // Apr 22, 2009 at 8:14 AM

  Note to Valerie Parkhurst: I wish you the best of luck. I believe that some of the LEOs who frequent this site may feel the same way.

  I’ve got no experience that qualifies me to offer any further practical advice. However, I continue to feel that defusing the situation to a safe level and aggressively or even relentlessly pursuing a resolution are not incompatible goals.

• 90 Daniel Lovejoy // May 3, 2009 at 6:01 PM

  There are bad people in every industry. My problem with the bad cops is that the good cops have a tendency to protect them. If I were a cop, I would not protect the bad cops. Why would you want to associate with someone that gives the rest of the good cops a bad name?
  When I was in the Military, I did not cover for those who were acting criminally, I reported them. I didn’t want to put my life in danger because they couldn’t control themselves.

• 91 Valerie Parkhurst // May 3, 2009 at 7:26 PM

  Thanks Voice of Reason..I appreciate your words of wisdom.

• 92 Voice of Reason // May 3, 2009 at 9:40 PM

  Note to Valerie Parkhurst: Let people know how it works out.

  Note to Daniel Lovejoy: You might wish to read Karl Mansoor’s post 72 on the subject. He discusses the Code of Silence towards the end. Note that Mr. Mansoor is a former LEO. The link is here. My own post 30 is of lesser importance, but may also be of interest. The link is here.

• 93 Cop Killer // May 13, 2009 at 9:40 PM

  I have never heard so many people whine about someone watching these asshole cops who abuse their powers because they think they own everyone (slavery was abolished a long time ago) They even think when they’re off duty that they have to flash their gay badge to get people to do what THEY want them to do. I don’t know of people who have “regular” jobs that do this. I don’t see BK workers coming over and commandering cookouts flashing their BK badge and cooking for us, I don’t see car wash workers flashing their badges and taking over my car washing. MY point is this, DO your job when you are ON your job, but when you go out as a citizen don’t flash that badge unless you ABSOLUTELY have to. Cops like to push people around and manipulate situations and that is why people HATE them. When you’re OFF DUTY maybe you should not be trying to show off for your friends/family/wife/girlfriend at how much more powerful you are than everyone else, this is why i carry 3-4 guns on me or in my vehicles at any given time, IF you butt in where you’re don’t belong, you’ll be treated as someone who is threatening my life and i’ll take appropriate reaction to you flashing what i cannot tell if it is a REAL badge or one you made at home, so after you’re shot we can figure that out. I’ve even seen cops try to bully people ONLINE on gaming sites when they get beat they try to intimidate by using the old “I’m a police officer with the sheriff’s office and i’m going to hunt you down and follow you waiting for you to make a mistake then i’m going to arrest you and then let’s see how many wins you get when i pay some N-WORD (not what HE said to the kid either) to fuck you up the ass repeatedly until i think i’m satisfied that you’ve learned a valuable lesson” This didn’t even happen to me but when i heard i hunted the guy down and he WAS a DEPUTY sherriff who had retired 4 yrs prior and was still using his badge to get his way, this is WHY people hate cops… I know ALL cops aren’t bad, but the bad ones overshadow the good ones because the good ones help cover up for the bad ones, if they’d stop that then maybe people wouldn’t hate them so much. BTW the deputy started the entire thing because this kid was playing a space game through facebook and so was the cop, the kid is 17 yrs old and was playing the game like everyone else and this cop couldn’t win against him and just started berating him and bitchin about losing to him (not even knowing he was a KID!!!) So i started attacking this cop online and MADE him go away before i made his life hell (luckily the cop was 2 counties away and i used street names, vehicles he owns and his name address and telephone # and told him i would have him arrested for trying to threaten some kid because he beat him in an online game) Funny how fast he backed down and how much backpeddling he did when i told him i had all the info and the kid had all the threats saved and we had IP addresses to boot, that guy ran faster than forrest gump…lmao COPS, CLEAN UP YOUR ACT, THE WORLD IS FAILING AND WE DON’T HAVE ANY ROOM FOR ASSHOLES ANYMORE. DON’T MAKE THE PEOPLE HAVE TO GOVERN THIS LAND BECAUSE WE WON’T NEED ANY BAD COPS TO MESS US UP. And why is everyone attacking this carlos guy anyway ? haters!!!! everyone seems to be haters anymore… What happened to AMERICA ?????? Why did we let GWBush RUIN US ?????? and who are the people that really voted for that asshole ???? And how can anyone not see how much he fucked this world up ? OUR country is not what it was before he was here, HE allowed the 9/11 stuff because he knew it would get the patriot act enacted, wake up people, we’re not gonna be able to dig out of this one without an absolute miracle from GOD. And i hate to say so, but we had better get people like Bush out of the government before we’re a 3rd world country relying on the rest of the world to take care of us, that won’t happen. THEY love to take our money but they don’t think we should tell them what to do, Well if you don’t wanna listen to us then give us OUR money back and stay the fuck out of AMERICA. Bush sold us out to the highest bidder for his family’s personal gains. The Bush family increased their wealth by using US to gain income. Wake up people, we’re being fucked from within, this isn’t the commies, the nazis or the terrorists from somewhere else, they were RUNNING THIS COUNTRY!!! Making policies that work for the people who lobby the government to do what they want by giving them MONEY, last time i checked that was called a bribe if you do it outside of government… Maybe we need to abolish lobbyists, legalize all drugs and anyone stupid enough to kill themselves with heroin, crack, crystal meth, cocaine, or any other drug, well good for them, they just saved us a ton of money because now we don’t have to end up housing him in a prison and having to feed them, clothe them, and put a roof over their heads for so many years, wasting tons of money on worthless criminals. Make the punishment work as a deterrent and stop being little babies about it. IF some criminal uses a gun in commission of a felony, that should get a swift death penalty not to exceed 1 yr from the trial date. (see cops, i don’t believe we don’t need you to get criminals, we just need you to be more law abiding than even we are supposed to be, set an example that cops can be decent towards citizens who aren’t giving them trouble) So please people, stop whining about cops being given too much hassle, let’s just take the first thing i seen when i got to this page, it said an officer was molesting his girlfriend’s 12-year-old daughter. DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD GO EASY ON HIM BECAUSE HE’S A COP ???? I don’t care who he is, ANYONE who does this should be known about and be on the national registry and should even be castrated, that’s a deterrent… Wanna stop crime ??? Make the laws tougher on REAL crimes (arson, burglary, robbery, rape, murder, armed felonies, etc…) THAT is what will make crime go down, and cops need to lead by example, if cops are committing crimes then they obviously think either that they can get away with them due to their brother officers covering up for them (maybe they don’t even know they are, but doing it for the old good ole boy network thing, like black people used to do, they would stick up for a criminal if he was black and being questioned by anyone white) Those type of things don’t work, they make honest people lie because of a perceived “brother/sisterhood” just because of some old traditions. Anyway, let’s try to keep an eye on criminals everywhere, whether they’re cops, lawyers, bus drivers, whatever they do for work we don’t care, it’s stopping criminals and maybe even shooting a few of the real crooks and saving us millions per year in their care & housing at one of the lovely citizen hotels they seem to building so many of. Stop wasting money and time and let’s try to save our country before we’re living in a 3rd world country, we’ve already slipped to a 2nd world so maybe we should close our borders because we can’t afford these sickos coming in and bringing pestilence with them and spreading it to what was the greatest country in the world. Why can’t we save ourselves before we save the rest of the world from some old dialysis patient running around in the mountains of pakistan who seems to be making us look like buffoons (if ya seen the 60 minutes with the guy that said they had him in their sights and was told by someone from the top to not take the shot and he wondered why the pres would have ordered them not to take him out) I say it’s TREASON and BUSH needs to be in PRISON for his 1 yr then execute him for his crimes, take Cheney also. Daddy Bush started our problems with the whole Saddam Hussein thing, and the only reason all this happened was to get Saddam dead and he did get that done… 15 yrs too late, Daddy could have done that back then and saved alot of bullshit. IF i was the one who was told NOT to shoot Osama, I would have shot him anyway and then told them we lost him again.

• 94 chris // Nov 29, 2009 at 4:57 PM

  Think about it this way. People get hired to be police officers. They are just people. They go through a lot of screening, testing, and continued evaluations. They are still people. They have bad days, they get swayed by greed, they have relationship issues, they drink, they have children. They are still police officers. Over time they seem lots of death, injury, lives ruined, and they are effected by these incidents. They are still people with parents, siblings, wives, children, and friends. Everyone changes over time and police officers are no different. Like race car drivers that get DUI’s, like elected officials that get caught doing wrong after years of good performance. So let’s admit it, some of you just hate cops because you got caught. Some of you wanted to be cops and could not even get hired because of how or what you are or did. Some of you somehow think that police officers that make honest mistakes in the .2 seconds they have to make a decision do it on purpose because they are on a power trip. The reality is that 95% of police officers are honest, try to do the right thing every time, and admit their mistakes. One other point, if people providing information to the police about an incident do not tell the truth how is it the police officer is responsible for what happened. Think about that and think about how truthful you were with the officer that contacted you.

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