Update: I slowed down a portion of the video in able to see more details.
Update II: Was BART police officer Johannes Mehserle even carrying a Taser gun?
Update III: BART cop shooting not just another case of racial profiling
By Carlos Miller
Seconds before the shooting, you can see three cops hovering around Oscar Grant.
BART police officer Johannes Mehserle appears to be trying to handcuff him. A second cop appears to have his knee on Grant’s back while having some kind of conversation with another handcuffed suspect who is on his knees. The third cop has his hand on this suspect’s shoulder and looks like he is speaking into his radio.
A female is standing inside the train filming the incident. You can hear her tell somebody, “baby, I’m fine, I’m just recording.”
Then you hear a man’s voice from inside the train: “You gotta take pictures of that shit ….”
Although Mehserle appears to be having some type of struggle with Grant, the cop with his knee on Grant’s back is blocking the view. The more I’ve watched this video, the more it seems as if Mehserle is trying to pull something out of his belt. Perhaps handcuffs. Perhaps a Taser. Perhaps a gun.
Someone from inside the train yells, “Hey, that’s fucked up.”
I couldn’t see any movement from Grant at all. There was much more of a struggle from the Don’t Tase Me, Bro guy.
The cop with his knee on Grant’s back suddenly senses some type of struggle and forces Grant’s face into the floor.
Somebody from inside the train yells, “let him go, what the fuck.”
Suddenly Mehserle stands up, pulls his gun out and shoots Grant in the back.
And when the second cop stands up, you can briefly see Grant’s hands were behind his back.
I am a multimedia journalist who has been fighting a lengthy legal battle after having photographed Miami police against their wishes in Feb. 2007. Please help the fight by donating to my Legal Defense Fund in the top left sidebar.
Thanks to my good friend Enhager for sending me this video via Split Ends, who led me to the Bay Area Indy Media site from where I was able to embed this video.
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- Judge doesn’t believe contradictory statements from BART police partner
- BART cop shooting not just another case of racial profiling
- BART cop caught on video shoving man into glass that shatters on impact
they need to lynch the cop in the town square! if not, i hope they torch the place!
Looking at that clip, I was wondering why people didn’t react. There were enough people on that train to easily overpower those guards. And the other “detainees” – would I just sit there after seeing my buddy get shot like that?
But it’s the pre-9/11 effect at work. Before 9/11 people just didn’t think something like that was possible, and it took a while to figure out a reaction. By the time it got to Flight 93, people knew what to do.
Same thing here. If something like that happens again with that many people around, the guards won’t get away.
I think it was just shock. You could hear the reaction of the crowd. They expected him to get roughed up, but I don’t think they expected the cop to pull out a gun and kill him because there really wasn’t a struggle.
Not even enough to warrant the cop to use a taser gun on him.
Dale, they were not security guards in the traditional sense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Police
Wow… after that I have to completely retract my earlier comments about it being nearly impossible to mistake a Taser for a Sig — the shock on Officer Mehserle’s face speaks volumes here. It really looks like he meant to point some form of pistol-gripped weapon (taser or firearm) and wasn’t fumbling with it when it went off.
The clarity of this version cuts through much of the uncertainty — his motions were deliberate. He cleanly drew his pistol, pointed it at the suspect’s back, and pulled the trigger. Whether he expected it to be a Taser or not is immaterial in my mind from this point forward. God help that former cop because he’s going to have a tough time finding anyone else who will.
Yeah, that’s a murder. The victim was face down on the ground, and if I’m on this officer’s jury, I’ll vote to send him to the gas chamber.
Yeah, this looks to me like “fatal taser confusion”. BART is going to pay millions on this one. No idea what will happen to the cop.
First obvious point is that the cop who shot looks at his gun in shock.
Second: the shooting victim was absolutely handcuffed.
Negligent homicide. Not 1st degree murder, but still a crime.
Murder.
He did draw his weapon deliberately.
But look at his reaction when it fires. He freezes, looks up at his cop buddy, back down to the ground, back up to his cop buddy. Later, his hands at his face.
This was an unintentional weapons discharge. A crime, a mistake that ended another man’s life. But this was not deliberate murder.
This so strange. I’m not from USA, so for me these sentences are just too absurd to be true:
“Mehserle has not been arrested or arraigned for the shooting by any of the several law enforcement agencies now investigating the case.”
“Federal law enforcement were also reported to be looking into whether Mr. Grant’s civil rights were violated in his killing.”
You know, crime is scary but this is much scarier.
Based on the the way the cop who made the shot grabbed his head afterward, I’d guess the story about him confusing his handgun for his taser was correct and that it was involuntary manslaughter.
“This was an unintentional weapons discharge. A crime, a mistake that ended another man’s life. But this was not deliberate murder.”
NO
You pull your gun; aim at a person who is face down, handcuffed; pull the trigger (it’s not as easy as on toy guns you know).
There can not be any talk of anything unintentional.
Yet another reason that Cops shouldn’t have TASERS. They use them too often and in unwarranted circumstances. And then you get things like this!
Sick, just Sick. What has this country become?
“Wow… after that I have to completely retract my earlier comments about it being nearly impossible to mistake a Taser for a Sig — the shock on Officer Mehserle’s face speaks volumes here. It really looks like he meant to point some form of pistol-gripped weapon (taser or firearm) and wasn’t fumbling with it when it went off.”
When will the sheople wake up in this country?
If you pause the video two seconds after the shooting, you can C-L-E-A-R-L-Y see that Grant’s hands are tied (or handcuffed) behind his back.
@Dale
It’s generally NOT a good idea for a crowd to rush the police like that. I counted at least 3 cops, each of which have 17 round magazines in their guns and more on their belts… if an angry mob rushes them, you bet your ass they can use lethal force in retaliation.
So please, record their actions and let the world know, but don’t use more violence against them; don’t give them a reason to hurt you.
Burn and Loot. Kill any Pig. Fuck That. Avenge Oscar Grant
On what day do you dumb niggers learn you don’t get shot if you are polite to the police?
Never- because being a dumb nigger means you are never polite.
You make your own bed niggers, sleep in it bitches.
Yeah, I saw the look of shock too. This dimwit may have thought he was grabbing his taser. So what?! This is a cold blooded killing that appears totally unjustified. That’s murder.
We’ll see what actually happens to the cop. Even if — and it’s a big IF — he thought he had his taser in hand, it just goes to show that there are cops out there who are egregiously reckless and not too bright.
Perhaps they shouldn’t have guns in the first place.
Wow, I hope the rioting continues, I only wish the people would stop directing their anger at buildings and cars and instead turn the anger towards the cops themselves who deserve it!
Jess
http://www.web-privacy.pro.tc
I see:
1) shot fired
2) officer looks at other officer with mouth open *WTF?*
3) he looks at the gun.
4) his palm strikes his head in a “God THAT was stupid” gesture.
I have watched the video many times and came to the conclusion that it was an accident. Before you start I am black so it’s not some kinda of white sympathy thing. Apparently he was using a glock which has a trigger safety that is really easy to fumble and shoot. That being said he should have never pulled the gun out in the first place. Personally I don’t think anyone should get the gas chamber considering the disproportionate amount of minorities(read black) that are given death sentences. That cop will get a slap on the wrist and it will be called an accident.
nice ninja videoing. . .I love it.
nice the train stayed there long enough and pulled away with the recorded evidence before anyone could come and ’secure’ the scene.
as far as the cops. wow. brutal. and so very wrong.
If you kill someone in the process of committing a crime, it is first degree murder regardless. The cop had ZERO cause to draw his taser, so drawing it and firing it at the man was a crime. This is murder plain and simple
This is a highly trained individual. If this involved anybody, say average joe, i would agree with negligent homicide. But we’re talking about a highly trained Law enforcement official. Accidents are not an accepetable excuse!!
$20 says that Thetruth is black.
White people are just as offended by this as you are Truth. If someone doesn’t say what you want them to I guess you can go to an internet site an post hateful things anonymously as a make believe “whitey”.
Wondering if the IP address for Thetruth is the same as the racist postings from Spokker yesterday.
DALE from first post,
What do you mean by the time it got to flight 93? Are you saying from the first hijacked plane on 9/11 to flight 93 people understood what to do? Did they play a recording or have a news feed in the plane that planes hit the towers? PLEASE! you are too funny, that plane was complete BS to ease the pain on the american people, so that noone dares think that the planes were not really hijacked. FLight 93 had no idea the other planes hit the towers, not to mention the in flight calls made? YOU CANNOT CALL FROM THE AIRPLANE! IT IS GOING TOO FAST! I TRIED BEFORE! AND AFTER! You are one of the loons who also believes a plane hit the pentagon? You are hilarious my friend, oh sorry you are not my friend.
And the reason noone did anything here is because they are police and they most likely would have tased anyone that interfered, and the cops would have been right because that is what they are drilled with their whole experience with the police from academy to patrolling.
And again back to the 9/11 thing, and if pre 9/11 people did not fight back but during 9/11 only the last plane faught back.. that doesnt make sense, no reasonable sense. The Flight 93 was a decoy to show that americans are strong and they will not sit idle while their plane is guided into a fiery inferno, except the other planes had no trouble with that mission, it was saudis that did it, and they were funded by the US government, because at this day and age something really terrible had to happen for us to go to WAR, as civilized as a nation we are, we are savages in our own way, if we are pricked with a needle, we want an entire bus load to suffer even more than we did. ITs called gluttony and we are all guilty of it, dont agree? The nazis that were not in the army were also nazis, even though they did not kill with weapons, they financed Hitlers campaign with tax money and allowing him to speak at rallys. Same thing in america, as sick and twisted as it is, truth hurts. But since the truth would create riots ont he streets the government will not tell us, it would destroy our belief in ourselves and in what America stands for. I guess its a small price to pay for living in the #1 place on earth.
Think about the other 9/11 planes… hijackers with box cutters? PLEASE! There were more non hijackers on each plane that hijackers, and atleast double, and your telling me only 1 plane fought back? That is laughable, and people accepting what Bush told the country on live tv is also laughable, but then almost every news report in the usa is fabricated for the progression of the direction that the leadership wants the country to go in, and im not talking about the crap that presidents tell us, im talking about what they actually do, and not the lies they tell regarding what they want you to think they do, and did in the past.
Conspiracy? So is saying anything negative about these police officers, on a different scale, but nonetheless the truth hurts, these cops should all either go to jail for the rest of their lives or be put to death, when you have the duty and the power, especially to PROTECT and SERVE, the inhabitants of this country you should not misuse that enormous trust, and anyone covering it up and anyone that stands next to the perpetrator with the same power and does nothing is guilty of the same crime, the punishment should be 8 fold worse for any police/fire/health/government officials and employees when they commit even the smallest of offenses. Lead by example, not by lies.
Most wont read this post because it goes against their view of the country, and their belief, some will not read it because they are guilty of crimes that they do not have to answer for. Bush is guilty of the same, he was responsible for the deaths of thousands of americans, but like Hitler… his own people would never have prosecuted him, because the majority either agrees/follows/or fears him.
Now im going to go poop.
John,
thetruth’s IP address is from Virginia.
Spokker’s IP address is from California.
Two different people.
@Greg
A Glock doesn’t have a safety.
@all
You do a great job of not feeding the troll. Thanks for that.
Ed from Ga,
It was a Sig Sauer.
http://carlosmiller.com/2009/01/07/could-a-taser-gun-be-so-easily-confused-for-a-firearm/
I agree about ignoring the troll.
DALE:
Since the beginning of the firearm, one only needs to shoot one in the air to have everyone stop, guffaw, shut up, and sit tight. Blantantly shooting someone in the back? Yeah, that’ll get people stunned enough to no know what to do, especially if it’s your friend or loved one and you realize he/she is about to die. The detained guy with the hat realized, “Whoa, this guy just got shot inches away from me.” woke up and got up.
Yes, there was a moment (seconds after the shooting) that the crowd could have rushed the cops but 1. More innocent people would have been killed and 2. both phones that gathered evidence may have been confiscated and/or lost/destroyed in the havoc.
KEVIN:
Very good point with “If you kill someone in the process of committing a crime, it is first degree murder regardless. The cop had ZERO cause to draw his taser, so drawing it and firing it at the man was a crime.”
God, this higher quality version is incredible. The major news networks need this NOW!
Yes, those Bart train doors closed at just the right moment? Does anyone know if Bart doors are automatic or what? People were definitely ready to rush off that train. I can’t imagine the frustration, anger, and sadness in those train cars as they pulled away.
Tom,
You can not only hear but you can fear the anger in that train car as the door closes.
The realization that they had just witnessed a murder is overtaking them at that precise moment.
And I do wonder about the car doors shutting because under normal circumstances, those doors would have been closed long before and the train would have kept moving.
But in that case, the train was stalled until after the gun went off. And suddenly, the trains came to life.
murder.
Did the officer panic and draw his taser to speed up the cuffing, move the arrestees away from the hostile crowd? Was his taser behind the holster or was it on his left side?
Police use tasers so they don’t have to use batons, which can cause severe injuries to bones. They had to use batons in the ’80’s because they were no longer allowed to use carotid sleeper holds that render the arrestee unconscious for about 10-15 seconds. These worked very well for officers and combative/resisting persons in that there was, in the vast majority of cases, no injury caused afterward. It is quick, effective and doesn’t injure. Tasers don’t always work. Like the carotid sleeper (when applied too long), taser deaths occur rarely. But if lawsuits prevent the use of tasers, we;re right back to batons and crushing bone injuries. All this can be prevented if arrestees follow the officers directions carefully, officers get good and frequent training, and officers face disciplinary action and prosecution when they violate the law or department regulations.
I agree that EVERYONE in that station should have overpowered those cops! Then do a citixens arrest right there! WHEN THE PEOPLE DECIDE TO LEAD, THE LEADERS WILL BE FORCED TO FOLLOW!!!
To me it looks like the officer was reaching for his taser rather than his pistol…and in think it was his taser pulled the trigger… This would all be a mute point if the people would comply with the officer’s request… This is a dangerous neighborhood and many other people have been shoot or had harm done to them..The police go in to these situation, wondering if an “innocent bystander” doesn’t come up behind then and shoot them.. This of course doesn’t excuse the fact that the officer made a mistake but put your self in their shoes…
it was murder plain and simple. All the excuses that some of you folks are making “negligent homicide”, meant to grab his taser, are pretty silly when you take into account
1. This police officer is paid a salary and trained by the city to protect the people.
2. The victim is subdued, on the ground and is not threat to the officer or others
3. The grip of a taser or mace feels completely different from a GUN
This cop killed a man. If not for the video, alot of yall would be making excuses giving the cop the benefit of the doubt. “well we dont know exactly what happened”
“the victim could have made suspicious movements”
Please stop making excuses for this atrocity. If we dont hold this cop accountable for this crime, there will be many others
Murder in the 1st Degree – it is time to dismantle our corrupt police state and the economic machine which supports it.
That’s a wanton execution.
WTF is up with that couple right by the black dude? They’re fucking oblivious to what the fuck is going on around them. I hate Americans like them.
Wow.
Just Wow.
I lived in the Bay Area for several years. The train goes under the Bay and comes up on the Oakland side. Anyone who reads this who has been on that train will understand the following.
What happened was a series of events that just lead to this horrendous killing. Read on VanityFair.com the account of the head on collision in brazil between two jets, one thing stuck with me in that article.
It was as if the Devil had his hand in things.
When you ride the BART from San Fran to Oakland it occurs to you–in the black tunnel beneath the Bay–that you are in one of the most earthquake prone parts of the world. What if the Big One hits–what kind of death would this be like, trapped in a tube–
–also, and I say this with all respect to my brothers, the train contains many Oakland brothers, people most of you reading this would cross the other side of the street to avoid.
It was New years and even on normal days you have to stand on the BART, so imagine being stuffed into the cars, everyone shouting, the smell of fear and booze and unwashed ass–everyone was tense.
And that is why the fight happened.
Earlier that night the BART cops were tense, there had been two weapons confiscated previously. Now try to enter the mind of Mehserle, baby born a few days ago, scared out of his mind, way out of his element, the people he deals with on a daily basis treat him as a rent a cop, spit at his feat, display No Fear when he draws his weapon.
The life of an inner city cop, compounded with the view that he is a Train Guard.
He just wants to go home and see his kid. So do all the cops, they don’t know who or what will come out of that tunnel, all they know is that there is a fight (maybe gang related) their already have been two weapons found, it was 2am and they all were ready for the worse.
The Devil shows his hand.
If you read enough reports, from SFgate you will find an interesting fact, there were not enough Tasers that night, cops going off shift would pass them to the next shift but not all of the cops had Tasers. Maybe Mehserle worked a double–he was a new father, maybe he was trying to make some extra money–maybe he was used to carrying a taser, we don’t know anything yet. . .
It is clear to me from his reaction after the shot that he thought he was using a taser. Maybe you think this was wrong–maybe it was–maybe it would caused a riot.
But you are not a cop.
Even if you are a cop, few of you are cops in inner cities.
A pistol gripped taser can feel a lot like a gun, weather it be a Sig Sauer or a Glock which weigh a lot less then you may think.
I could have been Grant. I am biracial which means in this country I am black. I grew up in Harbor City, next to Lomita and Wllmington and a stone’s throw from Compton. In 1992 I wa watching the riots on T.V when a dark cloud caused a shadow in my room, out the window a wharehouse on 256st was burned. I drove nice car and was pulled over 19 times by the LAPD. I hated the pigs, they searched my car, threw my shit on the street made me sit on the curb. They asked how a “kid like me” could afford a car like mine. I lived with my Grandparents and had a guilty Mom.
But I digress..
I hated the cops, hated the way they treated me. A cop had me on the curb and when he didn’t find anything he told me that my people were lucky, lucky we were brought here to work, we could have ended up back in Africa as lion food.
I cried myself to sleep that night. Pathetic. Yes. But when all your power is taken, when you feel like the cum of the earth, self pity is a safe harbor.
But my cousin is now LAPD.
A cousin who I grew up with like a brother when I moved to LA and with my Grandparents. And some of the things he has told, things that I will always keep between us has changed my point of view. I can’t help to think what if it had been him who pulled that trigger.
If an officer pulled a gun on you, or ordered you out of the car, you would comply. But in the inner city, if a cop pulls a gun on you, maybe that was the fourth person who did that that afternoon and the cop was less likely to shoot than Le-Lo on 35st. Listen to the audio, you can feel the tenor of the crowd, the animosity, the sense that something. . .something was going to happen.
That is why there is so much video.
Bit nobody, from the suspects, to the crowd, to
Mehserle expected to watch someone get shot.
But that night, in Fruitville, the Devil was in the details.
Honestly, that cop deserves to have his badge and gun taken and burned. Then for the family to file a wrongful death suite. What I saw isn’t a legal crime, it’s a crime of humanity to be sure but not a legal crime of this society. It’s a damn shame. Why that policeman did not have his weapon holstered is beyond me. You never point a barrel at anything unless you’re willing to put a friggin hole in it. This scene was avoidable. It’s that officer’s fault. Pure, plain and simple. His burden/punishment is that he has to live with what HE did for the rest of his life.
Ok the bald cop was kneeling on the victims head while the other cop shot him in the back. I have held both a pistol and a taser…it would be pretty hard to mistake the two…especially cause you keep them on opposite sides of your hip. The shooter should serve 25 yrs…the senior officer in charge should also be up on charges for not handeling the situation in a humane manner. Even after the guys is shot…they then drag him around like it was ok.
the MOST fucked up part is not that shooting, it’s the way the officer quit the force and has avoided all questioning.
pistol, taser, accident or murder, he was very much in the wrong, and justice needs to be done.
i’m not surprised there’s rioting, i just hope next time there’s a situation like this, all the people on the train don’t charge the arresting officers.
the public outnumber the police, vastly.
Kurt? Just because they weren’t spluttering impotently and kicking at the door that makes them oblivious? How can you even be certain they’re American? What a completely arbitrary and unnecessary provocation (perhaps you’re the American). All people react to shock in different ways.
All you who think the cops should’ve been rushed are stupid and would probably be behind the crowd egging them on. Cowards. And leo, you’re a fucking idiot.
@Brazen Bull
You’re an idiot. You’re gonna sit there and try to justify this? I dont care how bad of a day the cops had before this, it does not justify mistaking your weapon for another weapon or SHOOTING A FUCKING HUMAN BEING!!!
It is the Police’s job to be careful. To server and PROTECT.
Im disgusted.
Sorry for the family, but he would still be alive had he not been rowdy with the rest of his friends.
that cop deserves life in prison, i dont care if it was an accident, you do not give guns to people and not severely penalize them when they “screw up” or make a “mistake” either way it took a life, the cop should have been cuffed on the spot by his own peers and taken to criminal court.
THIS INCIDENT, NOT ACCIDENT, SHOWS HOW THE “SYSTEM” TAKES CARE OF ISSUES WITHIN ITSELF, IT JUST DOES NOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT ANYTHING, IF SOMETHING IS DONE IT WILL SET A PRECEDENT THAT NOONE WANTS TO BE APPLIED TO THEMSELVES, THUS ALL CASES THAT INVOLVE POLICE/FIRE/MEDICAL/GOVERNMENTAL PERSONNEL AND OFFICIALS THAT COMMIT CRIMES AGAINST CIVILIANS OR THEIR PEERS ARE LEFT UN PUNISHED, AND IF PUNISHED THEN VERY LIGHTLY. BEING FIRED FROM YOUR JOB IS NOT A PUNISHMENT FOR THIS OFFICER, nor is quitting. He deserves to be in jail for the rest of his life, or even put to death to send a message to past, present, and future generations. THAT NOTHING SHOULD AND WILL BE TOLERATED BESIDES FOLLOWING THE LAW, AND THIS OFFICER, AS SO MANY BEFORE HIM… be it tasering/beating/physically harming a suspect/civilian/citizen..etc … whatever it may be.. they should be put to a higher standard than someone that does not work for the government. The lax in punishment creates a safe haven for abuse on such a high level that truly only egotistical and people who want to control others and get a personal HIGH from it are given a badge and the ability to do whatever they want, ill kill that fucker for spitting in my face, and i know my fellow officers will cover it up.. whats the worst that will happen? I lose my badge? AWWW HOW SAD FOR ME! THat is actually what they think, i know this, i have many cop friends in several states who feel this way, and KNOW THAT THEY WOULD BE PROTECTED BY THEIR PEERS, in the department and above. ITS SICK… and here the world gets a glimpse of how it all goes down, even with VIDEO EVIDENCE, nothing serious happened and will happen to that murderer.
way to uphold the law
jim,
so rowdy people are allowed to be shot? ever heard of the law?
THERE IS NO CASE IN WHICH AN OFFICER CAN SHOOT A MAN IN THE BACK or a woman IN THE SITUATION SHOWN BY THE VIDEO!
You jim, are a moron, and people like you are the ones who abuse their power as police officers. IM THE LAW AND IF THEY DONT LISTEN TO ME, OR ARE DISRESPECTFUL I WILL TEACH THEM A LESSON. Those people do not deserve to have a badge, now a weapon in their hands.
I hope it is you next incident we hear about jimmy.
I am a Phoenix Police Officer. I have been on the force for about 15 years now.
People like these BART police officers disgust me.
There is a distance difference in the weight and feeling from the tazer compared to a gun.
They designed them this way.
Some cops are murders, some obey the law.
Hey Mike,
I used to cover the Phoenix Police Department when I was a reporter at the Arizona Republic a few years ago.
Met a lot of good guys there. A few not so good.
Thanks for your comment.
‘Looking at that clip, I was wondering why people didn’t react. There were enough people on that train to easily overpower those guards. And the other “detainees” – would I just sit there after seeing my buddy get shot like that?’
You’ve got to be kidding; you just witness someone get murdered by a trigger happy gun toting poorly trained glorified security guard, and you wonder why the horrified people on the train didn’t rush the 4 armed thugs that commit the murder?
I suppose you didn’t notice how quickly events unfolded, or how fast the train doors shut after the shooting.
Anyone else who thinks they would have been a hero have probably never seen the police shoot an unarmed and handcuffed kid in the back in front of hundreds of witnesses.
Fuck Leo, Fuck Mark, Fuck Kurt Fuck Steve and fuck anyone else who takes the trigger happy peice of shit rookie ass cops side. He quit the force because he’s a bitch and cant face what HE DID. People have the nerve to try to back him up…..would you back him up if it was a young girl who was shot?….NOPE!! Cops F-N suck all over the world…and they’re only getting worse….soon cops are gonna have to shoot first and ask questions later..cause people will be aiming at them. (DEXTER)
Ooops sorry Leo…you’re cool….I’m Out!!
that is Evil.
that IS Evil.
Someone should take justice into their own hands and find that man and kill him! America is going down the crapper so you might as well join in the chaos….
‘Sorry for the family, but he would still be alive had he not been rowdy with the rest of his friends.’
That’s a pretty good reason to be publicly executed for being a minority.
NONE of those kids were resisting a damn thing, and Grant was shot in the back while he was face down and handcuffed with another BART cop kneeling on his neck.
How can anyone justify his even being tasered in that situation, much less being murdered by someone poorly trained to handle a situation, but is given lethal force to do so?
The rioting is appalling but understandable when this video is being censored by the MSM.
Disgusting.
A trained cop can easily see the difference between a tazer with a yellow tip and a completely black glock. There was no threat, the guy was handcuffed, thus no adrenaline to impair his judgement. To me this was intentional.. the slap on the head seems to me to be more of a delayed reaction when he realized the amount of onlookers and the stupidity of his move. Not an oh no moment.. I’m not an American, so I really don’t care… (other than that my thoughts go out to the guy’s [who was shot] family and friends) – it just angers me to see that people permit this sort of behavior from the people who are put in charge to protect them.
It is not the first time cops in the States go ballistic; I was on holiday in LA a while back where six cops jumped a black guy who was not resisting arrest.. one of the cops beat the guy’s head to the ground so badly that there was a blood pool where his head had been. I saw it after they had dragged him away.
If people would have rushed the cops, as some people suggest, there would have been more people dead. Several more.
The best response was what has been done. To record the actions and distribute the videos worldwide to show the world what took place.
The truth is the ultimate weapon.
All I see here are angry letters, trying to pass the blame onto someone else with a lot of finger pointing. Each one of us should look ourselves in the mirror and ask “Who The Fuck Am I”. We are all to blame! Society is not about an individual, we are all inter connected. And until people begin to understand that; then it will be a long time before things will begin to change. We don’t know what was going on in any those peoples lives leading up to that moment and nor will we ever. If everyone took responsibility for their own thoughts and actions would we even need cops? Take a good look at yourself and how you perceive and treat others. Then maybe you will understand why there is so much fear and hate in our lives. Hate only generates more hate. Take responsibility for you own life for a change! Then, maybe you can begin to help others instead being the first one to criticize their actions.
Mike:
you are god amongst men.
Keep up the good work, i hope you practice what you preach, i hope there are more like you.
But do you agree this cop should be jailed for life? Worse? Or what sort of punishment? And what will that punishment mean for future and current officers who commit such crimes?
Carlos,
but the truth means nothing in the physical world. If i know the truth, but the perpetrator walks free… is that really a difference than noone even knowing that the incident happened?
Its like people ignoring that what hit the pentagon was not a plane. They feel they know the truth, but what is the truth? The truth in this situation might be that the cop has done that many times except this time he did not have the benefit of saying the guy had a gun pointed at him, and having his peers back him up, with a gun with the serial filed off being found on the scene.
The truth is nothing without consequence.
‘Take responsibility for you own life for a change! Then, maybe you can begin to help others instead being the first one to criticize their actions.’
That’s precisely what most rational posters are asking for; for the City of Oakland, the BART authorities and that officer, to take responsibility for his actions.
Maybe you haven’t noticed, but that isn’t happening.
Watch the video again and tell me there’s ANY justification for that kid getting shot with ANY kind of firearm.
The very end of the video is the most telling; even after realizing Grant has been shot at point blank range, the officers continue to search him without consideration for the fact that he’s now bleeding to death, going so far as to drag him around by his still handcuffed arms.
How can anyone be defending this?
This was a life changing experience for all directly or indirectly involved. Just look at the notes on this website and the impact that this event has made. A young man lost his life, a mother lost her son, and now another young man must live with this memory for the rest of his and his families’ life. We are all so quick to blame and find fault and seek retribution. Why can’t we change and try to make a difference instead of adding to the horror. We all have choices in the way we live our lives and we all need to take responsibility for our choices. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?
I cannot agree with Thetruth more.
Surely most of you have heard of the “don’t tase me bro” incident?
Why are police so jumpy, so quick to draw? Because there ARE violent subjects who endanger the lives of the protectors. Now, I’m not saying all police are good; there are surely many corrupt ones. But if you are stopped or detained by the police, you had better shut your ass up and cooperate, politely, quietly, and efficiently. If that guy DID have a weapon on him, he SHOULD have mentioned it. Notice the guy to the left? His hands up in the air, no quick or threatening movements. What else are they supposed to think if you struggle and disobey?
This disparity between the enforcers and those being policed has not grown overnight. Raging against “pigs” and rioting against…who the hell knows, will never, EVER help. In the end, we all want that happy ending, to go home to our brothers, mothers, and children.
Police are given weapons to protect the innocent. Granted, that word has been stretched further than a two-bit whore during Mardi Gras. The officer that discharged his weapon will be devastated for life. And that’s why he should be back on the job. It was an accident. Was it right? No. Was it good? Hell no. But it did happen. Jail for the man won’t do any good. It won’t do him good, or the city good. Several hunded hours of community service would. You can bet he’d learn from that, too. And be that much better because of it.
JNM,
Community hours? That’s what I got for photographing cops against their wishes. Community hours.
And you say this guy deserves the same for shooting and killing an unarmed man who was already handcuffed?
And only because he is a cop?
I’m sorry, I’m all for rioting when the issue is police brutality (living in Athens, where a boy was shot dead by police a month ago for no reason whatsoever) but “rush the police?” I hope us adults can agree that this is probably the stupidest thing you can do to an armed, bordering-on-retardation, panic-stricken police officer.
There is no need for that in terms of serving justice. The footage will suffice, since you need it as evidence.
I repeat: rushing the police = bad idea!!!!
Taser confusion my ass. Cops use those things as casually as handcuffs now. If you are so scared of every person you interact with on the beat, you’re a pussy that shouldn’t be a cop. He has no excuse and I hope the jury finds the same.
Of course there’s always the possibility Officer Friendly failed to take his anti-retarded pills that morning.
I think some might not understand what I was trying to say. I do not think the officer intended to kill Oscar, I think he mistook his Sig for a tazer. The Sig is a light firearm. But some reports say it is 3 times as heavy as the tazer that the BART cops use.
If you are driving and see a person in the middle of the street and slam on the pedal and run them over you are a murderer, this is tantamount to what some of you think happened.
If you are driving and swat a bee from your leg and kill a bicyclist you may be guilty of manslaughter…maybe not. This is a stance that many defenders of whatever cops do might take.
This is not my stance.
Mehserle is like the drunk who downs 9 beers in an hour with a few shots, hops in his car and wipes out a family.
He is guilty of killing someone due to his abhorrent lack of judgment and possible borderline level of retardation. He should serve time, not only for what he did but as a lesson to all officers that lack of training or intelligence, or iron nerves is no excuse for shooting someone in the back . . .and then hand cuffing him.
Remember folks, he was not handcuffed until after he was shot which points to this cop just being a retard, a retard with the power to kill, but a retard nonetheless.
Sorry to the fam…. First of all whats so sad about this situation is that its happening more and more EVERYDAY! and plz if any of ya’ll know any cop/lawenforcer that has been prosectuted for THEIR crime.. let me know. guarentee if he had not quit he would get suspension with pay like the rest, a vacation. while families are torn apart by these crimes committed to them by the “LAW” I guess when we see colored officers shooting unarmed white people then we’ll c justice, hell they’ll probably get death penatly. Its very clear the cops didnt give a damn he was shot, after the fact.. video shows right then they were throwing him around on the floor after the shooting. all that was missing was a burning cross. And to THE TRUTH. how bout u go across the train tracks and tell the crowd over there ur point of view… oh thats right your a COWARD, thats right. and to all those who live in candyland wake the fuck up, cops r crook’d jus like the lawyers and judges that set them free. stop making excuses for these bitches that r clearly killing humans… whether black, yellow, red, white, whatever, ur still in denial after witnessing it with ur own two eyes…. wow
Tasers are typically placed on the opposite side of the belt than the firearm. this is so the LEO can draw the taser with his strong hand (the hand he shoots with). the LEO belt is designed for muscle memory meaning that if you are in a heated situation you can easily select the appropriate “Use of force” weapon without having to search or fumble around. the common x26 taser has a vastly different weight and feel than a standard firearm be it sig sauer or other. The taser requires you to draw the weapon in a specific way and flip a switch to turn it on, you cant simply draw and fire, the firearm has no switch, it has a trigger pull of several pounds along with a secure holster that requires specific and deliberate movements to draw the weapon out. And if it does have a mechanical safety device the officer would have been trained on out to remove the safety as he was drawing the weapon so that when he archived his “sight picture” he would be ready to fire. there too many actions involve for a slip up. depending on the training of BART officers its hard to believe that any officer that completed the mandatory training could mistake the firearm for a taser and discharge it in the movements in the video.
After Mehserle shoots him, and rubs his head looking “confused and shocked”;
It doesn’t look to me like Mehserle regretted shooting Grant, just that he regretted doing so with such a large audience.
& EVEN IF, he meant to draw his taser. He was still trying to deliberately harm someone that was already detained and incapable of going anywhere.
this was a product of the cops rage in the situation. He was trying to “get back” at Grant for resisting.
It’s IMMORAL, and this monster should rot in prison.
Just to get the story straight:
1. Kids were detained for something right? The issue was overlooked. Was it a fight, or was it police harassment that got them benched to begin with? I’m not siding with anybody, but the kids shouldn’t have been dicking around to begin with to receive a knee in the back, pinned to floor.
2. Whether the cop shot the kid by mistake or by purpose, HE WILL BE TRIED FOR A CRIME. We can trust the justice system to follow through on that. Whether he will be sentenced to death or carry out imprisonment for life is a mute point, HE IS DONE.
My question to community is, what are you rioting/fighting for now? Are you asking for the police to turn over guns? What resolution is the community seeking? Once this ex-cop gets tried, and sentenced, what’s next?
I feel the community has a lot of tension and hate against against the authorities who provide “protection” but the message is unclear about what is being sought. The crime is not racially motivated but the news media will drop hints to insinuate a racial response.
JNM asked a good question. What if the shooter wasn’t a cop? Will the same incident cause the same response? Probably not. What if the cop was a black officer? Will riots have taken place? Would the outcome differ and in what way?
This entire incident is very unfortunate and has invoked a huge emotional response. We, the people, need to be logical about our response. We can just blindly fire off hateful responses without adequate reason. If we did, we’re not better that those rioting in the streets trying to prove point by setting fires.
Oscar was no angel by a long shot. He was on the path of a career criminal. Don’t you think this was his destiny and had it coming?
The cop made a mistake. Unfortunately for him, he is going to pay the price for all the abuse of power perpetrated on freedom in America in the last 8-years.
Even though I can see that this is a mistake and can feel sorry for the guy and his family, who are probably suffering terribly from this mistake, my pent up outrage and anger over the rampant ratcheting up of police brutality and abuse of power under the Bush administration makes another part of me want to see him and all like him lynched.
JNM,
Its true that in this day and age people should be aware that even being seen as resisting arrest can get you shot. Especially if you ain’t white and ain’t that always been the case?
However, simply because this is the reality of the situation in America today, does not mean it is right, good, moral, acceptable, constitutional, lawful or tolerable to any individual or society itself. this is not a liberal airy fairy statement or a republican militias and guns are the only way statement. It is not tolerable because as social animals it damages our sense of belonging in the group. Anytime this happens it is bad news.
I think you are perhaps living in a world of “should be” rather than a world of “what is.”
Lets look at what is. People are so outraged and afraid of their own police force that they take to the streets and mob up. People mob up for a reason. High emotion, a sense of alienation, disrespect and fear of a certain aspect of society (in this case law enforcement) or the perception that critical societal controls or contracts have been broken or violated.
Add this fear and high emotion to the burden of stress we all carry these days, especially if we live in poor neighborhoods. Add the fact that it happened to a person of a historically persecuted race– its not suprising at all these riots happened.
People are social animals and we must operate in groups. Nowadays we dont have regular groups anymore, we have super groups or uber groups. Groups where there are very many different and sometimes opposing viewpoints and goals. Also, we dont just belong to one group anymore (Me Big Thog’s clan) but we might belong to a lot of different groups, all who hold some or most or not much of our loyalty.
The person’s uber-group is the main group of people who they identify as belonging to. This sense of belonging could be any or all of these: belonging in one’s family, one’s group of friends, to the neighborhood, a highschool sports team, the city, as an american, or even as a law-abiding citizen or as a christian.
When people percieve that an aspect (in this case law enforcement) of society has violated a social contract (dont murder the public) that is critical for the functioning of said society, people abandon their front-of-the-brain, well thought loyalties to the uber-group.
(And I dont mean people decide to riot in an analytical, front-of-the-brain way. ITs the sub-concsious, angry, paranoid lizard-brain kind of way)
When a shocking break in the percieved societal contract happens, people who riot are unconsiously replacing the somewhat etheral sense of belonging in the uber-group with a more real, tangible, and ultimately more fulfilling belonging to a “tribe.” (usally whatever mob of people they happen to be around at the time. )
These things are not thought out, not planned, they are momentary de-volutions in our tenuous grip on our sense of belonging to such a massive, complicated uber-group like America.
Basically riots happen because your “lizard brain” would *much much much* prefer you to be following the biggest, loudest, fightin’est male, in a group of 150 people or less, and smashing anything thats too threatening, too shiny or too confusing. A severe enough shock (seeing a man get killed, feelings of intense persecution) and the lizard brain takes over.
The thing is, what is going to happen to people if the guy who started this shitstorm… mistake, accident, murder or no– gets his job back or a slap on the wrist?
I dont mean just the rioters but everyone in the city and all of America. How would they see that action in context with the social contracts we all live under?
A MAN DIED.
mistake or not, there is nothing more dangerous than assuming that the social contract between the police force and the public can be stretched and twisted forever. The riots mean there is already a large public perception that the social contract is broken. Reconciliation must be made, or the social contract will fracture.
Re-instituting the man or slapping him on the wrist will only confirm the negative perception further causing more and more of these incidents.
Thats how I see it.
(not american or black)
Action 1 – stand up
Action 2 – pull out gun
Action 3 – aim gun
Action 4 – pull trigger
Action 5 – look around in shame
Conclusion – MURDER!!!!!!!
Recommendation – DEATH PENALTY
glock does have a safty, just not much of one. it is a 2 stage trigger with what is called a “lawyers trigger” (meaning it takes a stiff 3 to 4 lb of pressure to set one off) no different than the smith and wesson sigma series. these guns dont fire themselves. it is the sole responsibility of the gun handler to control the weapon!! in any case it is sad when anyone looses their life.
I don’t think people have any right to post videos of this stuff on the internet. I don’t see that its anyones business except the officers about what went on. As a proud police wife I know for a fact that it was more than likely not on purpose that he grabbed the gun he was more than likely reaching for his taser. You people are sick that sat and videoed this you should really get a life and that is really sick that you posted it on line. Oh and another thing I get so sick of hearing people sit and bash cops and say nothing but crap about them, but then turn around and when they are in trouble cops are the first people they call so think about it next time that you talk bad about a cop think about who is going to be there when you need help.
Sorry about the comments being held like this but I have cached this page because it’s the only way to keep it from crashing the server.
But I am back at my computer now, so I can refresh the page every few minutes. It’s just that comments are not instantly appearing as they normally do.
This post has generated an extremely high amount of traffic and I am using WP Super Cache, which has proven to be very effective in keeping the server from crashing although there were some very shaky moments today.
Cops wife:
You are TRULY DELUSIONAL! In your world, all policemen are like Andy Taylor and Barney Fife! YES, we want the police there when we need them…that IS their duty! It is also their duty to protect ALL PERSONS and that includes innocent bystanders AS WELL AS the person(s) they are taking into custody. Wearing a badge and carrying a gun is a SACRED TRUST that society has bestowed on these individuals. When that trust is broken, civilized society starts to fall apart.
Mike (policeman from Phoenix):
It’s sad that your profession has to be tainted by individuals like Mehserle. There just has got to be a way of training police officers better and weeding out the bad apples. Clearly, this guy Mehserle should never have been given a gun. I just wonder what his record is/was like. Any thoughts about a 27 year old with only 2 years on the force? I believe he’s from semi-rural Napa, but don’t know much more about the guy.
That cop didnt even have a tazer on him. Their wasn’t enough of them(tazer) to go around to all the
law enforcement that was working that night.
So the hole BS of him mistaking his gun for a tazer.
I was a law enforcement student till 2 years ago. Then I found that cops are corrupt and the biggest gang out there.
Carry cameras if they are on the clock you can tape them. They are employees of the people. If the government doesnt work for its citizens we have the right to start anew.
In my view, individuals such as Johannes Mehserle don’t necessarily plot malevolently against citizens such as this victim. I have analysed this mindset for years and I am convinced that Mehserle and many of his peers across the country honestly do not regard shooting a handcuffed minority in the back as a crime. In following many stories such as this throughout the years, I have observed a marked inability in working and middle-class white America to distinguish right from wrong. Law enforcement being a microcosm of that realm.
In other video shot from the other side, you can see Grant lift his open hands. There are reports that he was pleading not to be tazed because he had a 4 yr. old daughter.
In looking at the video when he appears to be struggling after being pushed to the ground, it seems more like the police were shifting him looking for weapons.
I believe that the day Mehserle resigned whether than comply with the investigation, he should then have lost all rights and privileges accorded him as a police officer. That means he pays for his own defence, he is arrested on homicide charges (which could be reduced or plea bargained), and he faces the legal consequences for his actions.
BART is a special police agency here that has no external oversight. This is not the first time that BART police have shot and killed an unarmed person without justifiable cause. It is past time for BART to be accountable for the actions of their police force.
I understand that being a police officer is a stressful and difficult job. Even more so, when you work for a force that is seen as rent-a-cops. BART police go through the same academy training as the officers of other Bay Area agencies. There is no excuse or reason for Mehserle to have drawn a weapon at all. I only hope Alameda County DA does bring criminal charges against him, and that Ammiato and Yee’s legislation to require the creation of an external oversight commission for BART police.
That new video shows an execution, and they move the body not even in the clearest of mind to be a first responder, The Cops are in the wrong, excessive force for sure, 2nd degree murder. And if I was a Cop in Bart or Oakland I would Retire today, not at all the finest and not at all out to protect and serve the people of this town, the investigation and news coverage has been appalling.
This will happen again if this is not made a Death Sentence example of
He’ll be charged with manslaughter 2. Watch.
TO COPS WIFE–I am a 54 year old white male…I am an outstanding citizen of the US…I pay my taxes…I make good money…I am not some low-life responding to your comment. I just want you to know this before I comment about you.
People like you need to leave the this country because you do not belong here for you to make the statement you did pisses me off to no end. Where do you get off saying that when a cop kills someone it is not the publics business…you sick piece of crap. Wether it was an accident or not IT IS OUR BUSINESS YOU PIECE OF SHIT.
Is everyone so hungry for blood? Does more blood need to be spilled before they feel justice is done? How many other man and woman died on New Years? In any case I don’t believe anyone deserves to die. Accidents do happen, and people do kill other people. When are we going say enough is enough and realize that violence is not the answer. That we of a civilized society need to become more compassionate. That there are more civilized and peaceful means to resolving issues. Everyone is so quick to judge; so easy to find blame in someone else, while overlooking their own faults. Nobody is perfect; and as humans we are inherently imperfect. So you can continue to perpetuate the problem with anger and hate; or you can make a change and do something different. It’s Your Choice!
Absolutely tragic is what it is. I met Oscar a few times at the store he wars a butcher at. He stood out to me a really kind person. Friendly and glad to be where he was in life. I didnt know him personally, but I did know who he was..
This is just very, very sad.
From what I’ve read, the incident was caused by a fight on the train. The question, though, was whether the men detained, including Oscar, were actually participants in the fight. At least one account says that Oscar was trying to break up the fight and got caught up with others.
Clearly from all the different videos, people on the train thought the young men weren’t being treated fairly by the police from the beginning – you can hear people objecting to what they were lining the guys up against the wall.
And the fact that at least 9 people had cameras and cell phones out recording the incident tells you that most people thought something wrong was going on and needed to be documented.
This young man was handcuffed, with his hands behind his back, face down, and that cop had his full weight and knee in his back. I rather doubt that the young man could breath.
Have somebody do that to you and see if reflexes don’t take over and you struggle to breath.
I hate crime and violence, but I have gotten to the point where I fear the police as much as I fear crime. We live in the Houston, TX area and there is a Civil Federal trial going on here where four cops rushed a mentally ill man who wasn’t threatening anyone and they shot him fourteen times, most of them in the back. How can they possibly think that is self-defense on the part of the cops? Anytime in this area when one has more than one policeman show up at a scene, then one of them is going to over react and all hell breaks loose and usually someone dies that shouldn’t have.
I am an upper middle class grandmother with a Master’s Degree and I feel that way, so don’t say I am a minority or something. Here, they seem to kill indiscriminately, white, brown, black, male, female, young and old. Fourteen times in the back and they have the audacity to claim self-defense.
Looks to me like he looked at his partner to see how they are going to cover this one up and put his hands up to his face to say “oh sh** ” Is he actually carrying a taser and a gun?
i have watched this video two or three times and i dont care what anyone says, whether or not the officer mistakes his gun for his stun gun he commited murder. are not officers of the law sworn to serve and protect? and wasnt the victim subdued? mistake or not the officer killed him……plain and simple.
I had been bothered by this whole story for a while and didn’t understand what really happened. After watching this, it brings tears to my eyes. He was NOT struggling at the time he was shot. His face was down, hands behind his back. It appears the officer was not struggling with him, but reaches and grabs the gun, then shoots. I now know why people are ANGRY! It’s ridiculous! He should not have died.
Here is a video clip that I slowed down that reveals more details.
http://carlosmiller.com/2009/01/09/slow-motion-video-of-bart-shooting-video-shows-more-details/
After reading all these posts I wasn’t sure if I was going to comment or not. Everything I feel has been said in one way or another. Until I read Cops Wife’s post. Her first sentence “I don’t think people have any right to post videos of this stuff on the internet.” made me very angry. Her attitude is absurd. Her self righteousness sickens me. “This is no one’s business except the police officers” ? Really? Enough about that stupid whore, I think what a lot of cops fail to realize is that they are not the law, they are there to uphold the law. That’s a very big difference that gets blinded by their egos. We have to overlook this flaw to some degree because it goes hand in hand with the type of people that apply for these jobs. But when someone looses their life, it can not be overlooked. I live in a city where the police shoot black men for sport. I would be very surprised if he gets convicted of any crime at all. Keep in mind that not only do the investigators have to charge him but the DA has to agree to send it to the grand jury. Then it’s up to the grand jury to indict him. Then a trial.
for the record i live in Toronto, Canada and every time i hear of a cop shooting and killing someone, and it happens more often then u think. the siu allways later says it was a clean shoot or a justifiable homicide. Funny thing is though i know the day it happens they will allways be cleared of wrong doing. Because when cops investigate cops the public loses
That was not a shooting. It was an execution.
This just doesn’t make any sense. If there had been some comment made to genuinely require the use of such force, something to make the officers believe there was a mortal danger to themselves or others, I believe there would have been more than one shot.
If there was some medium threat that warranted such force… one would think they would have shot him in the shoulder, arm, leg, etc. NOT in the BACK.
Given that it appears the cop took his time and was very purposeful and only fired a single shot to the back, I don’t see how this could have been a “good shoot” and since he resigned before IA could talk to him… definitely doesn’t bode well for him.
Watching the clip I have to stretch my imagination to determine a scenario where all of this comes together and justifies these actions.
Notice there doesn’t seem to be much surprise though by any of the other officers… did they hear/see something which warranted the action or did they just hear the officer say something to give them warning?
I’d love to see any footage from outside the train or hear the audio from the police radios.
jrfunkenstein @ 66
Two very good posts! Thanks you!
No doubt about it, the cops dragged Oscar by his cuffed arms AFTER they shot and killed him. This cop needs a long prison sentence, if he doesn’t get one it is a monumental injustice. That is an understatement!!
This action, the search and dragging of this fatally injured man, will be the last straw for these chumps in court. Those cops suck!!
Stay cool, Carlos is right. No need to kill the cops, just record their crimes!
Carlos.
Thank you.
Im from Oakland. I live in Brookyln.
I blogged about Oscar. The piece should run on Racilicious in the next few days.
This video made me cry.
It made me feel like nothing.
carlos, i know this is buried, but someone asked about this:
I lived next door to a retired sheriff. He was in his 60s, and his wife had left him cause of alcoholism. One night, when i was still in junior high, she evidently stopped by to see him at his request. He shot her with a shotgun at near point blank range.
The police surrounded his house, arrested him (naked, no less), and took him away.
The next day he was back home, and back drinking. I don’t even remember if there were a court date. He ended up dying a year or so later, but not after wrecking his car several times, etc.
Cops don’t get in trouble like the rest of us.
(ps – neighbors saw him earlier that day at the bank and he said that his wife was coming over that night for whatever reason. He knew. He also had huge security gates and doors and alarm systems, all of which she got through before he shot her in the vestibule. at the very least it was manslaughter… at the worst it was 1st degree murder.)
After reading some of these response I can only you some of you kneejerkers never end up on a jury.
To me this is clearly murder!!!!
Had this been a minority individual shooting someone he would have already been beaten by the police and through in jail, whether it was accidental or not!!!!
As far as a taser goes; the police get repeated hours of training with guns and tasers so that they know the difference between both and when to use them and not!!!!
The gun is worn on the right side of your holster and your taser is worn on your left side of your holster unless you shoot with your left hand then its vice-versa, no mistake here!
Cops are trained not to mistake the gun or the taser…
This was no accident. If the officer never meant to fire his gun then he should have never pull out his gun!!!
This officer had no right to shoot Grant in the back accidentally or other wise!!!
In this country you are guarantied a trail, presumed innocent, before you are found guilty or innocent.
Even if this shooting of Grant was an accident why hasn’t this officer been arrested?
Even if this shooting was an accident why hasn’t this officer been detailed?
This is not an accident this is murder in the 1st degree. This officer took someone’s life with out cause or due process!!!
I feel like Psynaut does; I am beyond words because of the, “police brutality and abuse of power under the Bush administration makes another part of me want to see him and all like him lynched.” Accident or no accident.
Just tired of police abuse and misconduct under the color of authority…
In England the cops are the same, trigger happy. Thank God they are not all armed or there will be a lot more people shot when they could be restrained using a taser.
They are also above the law and are never prosecuted or lose their jobs. In fact they don’t lose their jobs at all now if they have a criminal record.
Don’t it make you feel safe walking the streets!
This was an execution, no two ways about it.
That said, do not make the mistake of blaming this on the Bush Administration. This type of stuff has been going on for a lot longer than Bush has been in office. We just have better means to catch the stuff on tape and prove the cops are full of crap now.
im not a US citizen and therfore not familiar with local police-procedures after a person shooting another person. im not a judge or lawyer either, so i dont want to specutlate about whether it was murder or manslaughter or whatever and how it has to be “punished”. nor about “glocks” or “sig sauers” or their safetys and similarities to taserguns . not even about if it had been by purpous or an enormously stupid moron dumb failure.
WHAT RIDDLES ME IS:
how can someone (whoever) possibly shoot a human-beeing in broad view of the public and not bee detained or held for questioning until the whole case is at court and he is eather found guilty or not?
9 days done and the first person to ask about what happened (= the shooter) has´nt even been interviewed by any law enforcing official…
i do understand that people are rightfully angry… and the “more stupid ones” among them are going violent and calling for vengeance and chaos and blood (ending up in more innocent persons getting harmed or hurt)… on the other hand: historically this seems to be the only way to put enough preassure on the “established club of powerful institutions/individuals” to force them out their tracks… i dont know… this world somehow just sucks
please excuse my bad English/spelling
Dale, I agree with you can never surely say what you will do when you find yourself in situations like this. I want to live in a world where those cops would have been over-powered and torn apart by the onlookers immediately.
After reading the comments of Cops Wife and Barbara (on another post thread) I am now convinced that there is one person worse that a crooked cop.
A crooked cop’s wife.
Shit, I’m more afaid of cops than drug dealers and gangs! One day these assholes might pull me over for a tag light and just shoot the fck out of me because he’s having a bad day, and the sad thing is he might get away with it. all he has to say is “The subject was reaching for what looked like a gun”. He will go under investigation and all these fck’d up judges and his pussy cop buddies will make the shooting look justified. Its not just fck’d up cops, its the whole fck’n system! so FCK THE LAW! by the way I dont belive this one will get away with this stunt he pulled, there are way too many witnesses.
John,
And the amazing part is that they appear to be two different people from two completely different locations.
Stay strong brotha…
Even the worst comments on this site about Oscar Grant’s murder, are like a Sunday School lesson compared to some of the other blogs. Whites, especially trailer trash, still “salty” with rage about Obama’s win (the nerve of that uppity n***er!) have been having a field day with their “he deserved it” and “good riddance” comments. A generation ago such cowardly racists hid behind sheets, now thanks to modern technology they are able to hide behind computer keys.
In the 70’s the phrase “The whole world is watching” demonstrated the power of visuals vs. cover-ups…and now today no one can deny what the countless number of cell phone videos have shown…a young man, with his hands raised in the universal sign of surrender was executed, face down, by somenone who was sworn to serve and protect.
Several bloggers have commented that black-on-black crime is worse than police killings because it is more rampant. Any one on this site that is interested in really understanding black-on-black crime needs to read “Soul on Ice” by Eldridge Cleaver and “Makes Me Wanna Holler” by Nathan McCall. Cleaver, in “justifying” why he raped so many black girls states that he did so because he knew there would be no punishment, no outcry, because black girls were not valued. He said he thought about “crossing over”, that is raping white girls, but he knew that he would then have to suffer consequences. Similarly, McCall, in describing his own rage, frustration , and despair growing up as a black male, states that homicide by a black male against another black male is really suicide. He explains that since a black male (especially one living in poverty with no education or perceved positive options) hates himself so much after being reminded daily that he is “worthless, he does not value the life of someone who looks like him…and he knows there will be no consequences if he kills that black male, a mirror of himself. My parents grew up in the segregated South, and told us constantly about the unwritten code that blacks and whites well understood—”kill a black, it ain’t a crime; kill a white, and you gon’ do time…or git your neck stretched.” Each time a cop (black or white) kills or brutalizes a young man of color, it further devalues their lives…and continues the cycle of black on black crime. After all, they must be worthless right(?) if cops can kill a man the night before his wedding—Sean Bell—a man reaching for his wallet—Amadou Dialo—and now Oscar Grant,—and there are NO CONSEQUENCES for these crimes. No wonder little black children kept picking white dolls over black dolls as “the prettiest and the smartest” in Dr. Clark’s experiments in the 1950s and later in the 1980’s…Black life is not valued in this country, and other parts of the world (who imitate AmeriKKKan values). Until it is, if ever, there will be more murders by police AND black-on-black crime.
I don’t know where the story of the officer confusing to use a taser instead of a gun came from. Has anyone even consider these questions or know the answers.
Was the officer who shot Grant allowed to even carry a taser gun?
Was the office who shot Grant on that video even carrying a taser gun?
Aren’t taser guns usually a BRIGHT YELLOW or ORANGE COLOR? ( The Subway was well lit.)
Don’t you need to turn on a taser gun? (Don’t you think the officer would have thought, hey maybe this is a real gun with bullets because it doesn’t have a switch to turn on so let me put it back in my holster and grab the taser gun instead.)
Don’t guns have a safety mechanism where you have to adjust it in order for the gun to fire? (You would have thought this would have been a hugh RED FLAG in knowing this is not a taser gun)
I think those are the real answers we need that will draw us to a conclusion of this case that we are all looking for.
The officer is without a doubt guilty of some sort of crime whether it be murder, manslaughter or any other crime requiring a sentence for time in prison.
On a financial note, if I was the attorney representing the Family, I would have filed a $100,000,000 lawsuit against the defendants in this case including the officer that shot Grant.
Grant you will be resurrected…
It isn’t news that a majority of police officers shouldn’t be able to carry a weapon. damn shame. I hope these crooked cops get what’s coming to them.
if you look at 1:48 of the video, another “cop” walks by with a taser drawn….it’s bright yellow!!!! The killer held his weapon with 2 hands in front of him for 2 – 3 seconds before firing….. no way in hell you could mistake it for anything else… this goon was in thug mode and acted out his power trip fantasy to the unfortunate conclusion we see here…. another 17 year old kid killed with a taser yesterday…. old ladies tased…. I’m afraid the most feared enemy is now the police….
X
This guys web site keeps smamming me with e-mail even after unsubscribing…CARLOS THIS SUCKS…FIX IT!
My website?
Jocelyn,
I live in Miami where black men kill each other on an almost regular basis. It is not just African-Americans, but it is also Haitian-Americans.
It’s get to the point where every time you read a headline of someone getting killed, you automatically assume it’s in the black neighborhoods.
I am Colombian-American, a native of Miami, and I have spent a lot of time in Miami’s black neighborhoods. I have many friends there. I’ve taken many photos there. I am not afraid to walk through those neighborhoods with my cameras.
The people I know, the people I’ve met in those neighborhoods, the people who have invited me in their house are no different than the Latin people I grew up with.
But there is a difference. They are killing each other. Not necessarily the people I know, but the people in their neighborhoods.
And where does it stop?
I’m glad you found my site not as racist as the other sites. I allow discussion, but when it gets to a certain intolerable point, I have deleted comments and banned people.
But it really hasn’t happened that often.
Here is something I wrote a few months ago about my experience in one of Miami’s black neighborhoods.
http://www.magiccitymania.com/2008/05/07/liberty-city-lesson/
after the shooting police took as many cameras vidio phones as the could . the news showed a officer with 4 paper bags full of them as evidince .bart police say there where no vidios of the incident recorded the next day, if the bart train doors hadent closed and those few vidios gotten away from the bart police they would have covered up the whole story
A “tazer” in Illinois even without the battery attached can be charged just like a firearm so… That would indicate it is a deadly weapon right? Why was a tazer needed? Are these other officers complicite?
If you view it with an open mind you will see this:
First guy getting cuffed for some reason. Man who ends up getting shot keeps trying to get onto his feet and the cop makes him sit back down.
Shot man ends up getting cuffed for some reason and appears to be struggling with the cops.
The cop stands up and draws down on him, pauses, and the other officer starts to move up and away from the cuffed man.
Officers normally call out that they are going to use the taser to warn other officers to get back. This may explain the pause and why the other officer gets off the guy just before the shot.
The officer is in full view of about 100 people who are witnesses and video taping him. The shot man is cuffed. Why a cop would decide to “execute” or “murder” a cuffed man with so many witnesses is beyond my comprehension.
There was another officer there that had a yellow taser so I know they had them available.
Immediately after the shooting the cop looked stunned and confused. It appears that he did not understand what just happened.
Many departments require cops to carry the taser on their week side because the taser is identical in size and use as a firearm.
This is not the first time an officer used his sidearm when he thought it was a taser.
So it looks to me that the cop wanted to stop the guy from fighting them off with his legs and he decided to deploy the taser. Whether it was right or wrong to use.
He points what he thinks was his taser, calls out he is going to use it, and fires one time.
Manslaughter or murder? I think not.
all you fucking idiots out there. a gun is heavy. a taser is not. and a gun isn’t yellow. and he held it infront of himself before firing.
fuck the pigs!
fight the police!
ok, i’ve read all the comments here, and i feel i should probably make comment on what was said to clarify. she was a little upset after reading some of the police bashing that goes on in here. yes, it is your business. no, I don’t mind being taped while I am doing my duty. it makes it much more difficult to concentrate on my job and protect myself and the public from *gasp* criminals.. how am i supposed to know whether the person i’m dealing with is gonna kill me? what is my so called ‘whore’ of a wife going to do now to feed my children? for every supposed excessive force video, there is a dash cam video or some other type of surveillance video showing a police officer being executed by the very people he is trying to protect.
no, we don’t know what happened that day unless we were in person watching it. the video is very poor quality and for all we know he may or may not have been searched. i’m not saying that the officer was in the right. obviously he felt necessary that he should resign. much better than trying to cover the entire thing up imho. so before you call every cop you see crooked, or that we are just a large GANG (i really liked that one), take a second look and realize that we don’t all have a superiority complex, and we just want to keep our superiors happy and go home at the end of the shift.
oh, and for those of you that are going to try and bash me because you don’t believe any of my comments are true, or that i’m just another gang member, think what you want. i hear much worse in person and ANGRY TYPING AND ALL CAPS DONT SCARE ME. i don’t troll around forums looking to feel better about myself. good evening gentlemen..
how bout this…lets go old testament…
does the cop have a child?
Cop Wife’s Husband,
As the guy who runs this site, I want to thank you for your comments.
I am curious, however, about an officer’s Use of Force Doctrine.
Isn’t there a series of steps an officer must go through before he pulls out his gun and shoots?
Where would the use of a Taser gun fall within those steps?
Some people have mentioned that Oscar Grant may have been resisting but you probably deal with more resistance on a daily basis than what was seen in that video.
The Truth,
If the scenario played out as you said, how can it not be manslaughter?
It’s not murder if there is no intent to kill or if there is no malice aforethought or willful disregard for life. If the officer in question really did intend to draw his taser and not his service piece, then it can’t be murder.
But it then follows that the fact that he intended to use a taser on someone already restrained means that his action grew out of a criminal disregard for the civil rights and the health and safety of the victim (who at that time could be considered in custody) which makes this a case of involuntary manslaughter (sometimes called criminally negligent homicide) for which he can and should be tried.
Cop’s wife’s husband.
I whole-heartily disagreed with your wife’s comments and, because of the anonymity of the web, used unnecessarily insulting language to express my disagreement. My apologies to you and your wife.
Can anyone please explain to me why there hasn’t been any updates in the investigation or even an official explanation offered? In my town, the use of deadly force got so bad that we swore in a public review board that get answers almost immediately. My father was a police officer for many years and I remember several stories of multiple officers having to get someone under control. Many officers getting bloody noses in the process. No one ever got shot or killed. I would think it would be difficult NOT to struggle when getting pushed to the ground with an officer sitting on your neck. Surely standard procedure would require more of a struggle than this to use a tazer or especially deadly force. Have the investigators set a date for a press conference or anything like that?
Speaker to Wolves:
Actually, you’re not quite right. Malice aforethought would be necessary to prove Murder 1. Clearly, a willful disregard for life CAN be proved in this instance. The use of a firearm in this case is in and of itself enough to prove intent to kill.
NO ONE is going to buy the, “I thought I had my taser in my hand, but it turned out to be my service revolver” excuse. It’s insulting to anyone and everyone’s intelligence.
Murder 2 is a more likely scenario for Mehserle, although he MIGHT be able to plea to Manslaughter – and, again, he’s not going to get away with INVOLUNTARY Manslaughter.
There are now 3 separate investigations into what happened, with the Attorney General (Jerry Brown) appointing a prosecutor to oversee the 3 investigations. Jerry Brown has said he doesn’t understand the delay in the process of the investigations and that he will launch his own investigation if things get stalled.
This isn’t Rodney King on tape. This is Oscar Grant being SHOT IN THE BACK DEAD by a cop who snapped. If you look at the video, Mehserle doesn’t look at the gun (as in, “Gee, that ain’t my taser…”), he looks at the ground, then looks around and his body language says, “OMG! What the fuck did I just do?”
Good luck with trying to convince a jury that Mehserle is NOT guilty of AT LEAST Murder 2. Mehserle’s best bet is to confess and try to plea to Manslaughter.
I would like to thank Jocelyn & BuddhaBro for their insight on this truly desturbing event in the lives of two men, and several dozen onlookers, America & the world we now live in. I was away from the Bay Area when this awful shooting took place, and upon my return in hearing of it, i was destroyed by the enormity of uncertainty it meant for us all. I was sickened by the actions of the BART police, both in their method of detaining as well as the complete disregard for the human life that seemed apparent. In witnessing the crime, my first thought is that it is murder… but then what?
I do not now, nor will i ever, believe in the death penalty – due to the undeniable truth that innocent men die too, and more racially selective death happens at that level.. which is still one of the greatest shames of our supposed civilization. I would ask in the sake of the greiving family of the dear departed, and that of the officers involved, including one newly arrived life, that no more angry words be said, no more violence instigated. I would remind all that right now, as we live and breeth, freely able to type away to our heart’s content, there are women and children, and many other young brothers, dying from war’s manifestations & even more hatred than can be seen here this evening… i am not saying either is more important, but that perhaps the broader picture IS.
Perhaps one life does equal hundreds or thousands; perhaps an eye can never really make up for the other eye. Perhaps this shooting was an accident; perhaps it was pure, unadulterated murder. Perhaps we are all guilty; perhaps no one truly is. But what i would ask, in any event, is twofold:
*** Do you ever want to see another man be executed? Another child die in vain? Another displaced people move from one version of Hell to the next?
If the answer is no, then i hope you are ready to stand up calmly, take the stage and make your voices, and not just your anger, heard loud and clear.
*** Are any of you right now willing to say you have never, nor WILL never, commit a greivous sin?
Let he who can say yes, please cast the first bloody stone.
Update: Was BART police officer Johannes Mehserle even carrying a Taser gun?
http://carlosmiller.com/2009/01/11/was-bart-police-officer-johannes-mehserle-even-carrying-a-taser-gun/
The cop fucked up, but all you screaming “murder” need to look up what murder is. Manslaughter (vol or non) at best.
Make no mistake people….the cop that shot Oscar walked up to him from the left side of the video, while he was sitting down, and kneed/kicked him in the chest. That is why people already had their cameras out. The cops were already using excessive force.
Then after oscar got up on his knees with his hands still up to speak to the cops, they wrestled him to the ground. At one point you can see the cop reach toward his gun. He then wrestles with “suspect” and then fumbles to pull out his “service weapon”, stands all the way up, and with both hands, aims, and shoots Oscar in the back. I’m sorry but EVEN IF he had a taser on him, how long does it take for you to realize that is not what you are holding?
The whole taser thing came about after analysts (probably cops) looked at the video and said “well maybe he thought it was a taser”. Clearly this will be used as his defense. He can’t claim self defense, too many electronic witnesses.
…and why after they shot him did they continue to drag and flip him? The chief even had the nerve to say “it is policy to handcuff someone after they’ve been shot to make sure they are no longer a threat”. He was DYING……what kinda damn threat was that? His friend was handcuffed and all he could do after seeing them shoot Oscar was to stand over him tryin to keep the cop (who had just shot him) from dragging him across the platform some more…..
@ cop’s wife’s husband
your example of cops being executed happens how many times LESS than police shooting unarmed people (esp minorities) and killing them?
There is a very large gap….and I say that if a cop doesn’t feel that he should be held to the same standards as the general public, then we should all be very concerned.
If it wasn’t a cop that did this, the person who shot Oscar would have been detained. Why not Mehserle?
Accident. No prosecutor could prove any intent to commit a crime. Those demanding an arrest are proto-dictators, communists with fanticies of being KGB agents. Just as the reporter on this website claims, you can’t be charged with a crime if there was no crime. Cop haters just want to be the same as the cops they hate.
Federale,
How can any lawyer prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was an accident? Especially if it turns out, he was not carrying a Taser gun at the time?
The only thing that we all can agree on is that the cop pulled out his gun and shot Oscar Grant.
The fact that Grant was an ex-con is irrelevant to this case because none of those videos show Grant fighting the cop.
For that matter, none of those videos show Grant fighting the groups of people, which lead to cops getting involved in the first place.
Some witnesses say he was trying to break up the fight. We might never really know what took place beforehand.
All we know is what we see on the videos, and it is very damaging to the officer.
Blacks always resist arrest and make the situation much worse than it already is. That’s what happened in this case.
Johannes is not a racist idot who became a cop so he could get a gun and kill someone.
I knew him when I was in grade school up until college. He was bright and mild mannered.
Im sure it was a fatal accident that he wishes he could undo.
I mean no disrespect to his family and friends and I wish them peace and my condolences.
Please don’t wish violence upon Johannes because I know he is tormented inside.
Gotta say something,
I don’t wish violence upon him or his family, and I don’t agree with anybody who does.
But many people fear that justice will not be served because he was a police officer at the time of the shooting.
It’s happened too many times before.
Whatever the reasons that lead up to the shooting, the fact is he did kill a man. And I don’t see how anybody can argue that it was in self-defense.
And whether he may be tormented by his actions, another family is tormented by the death of a loved one.
There are no winners in gun-related deaths.
I don’t believe it was self defense either. The concept of defending his life, I don’t believe entered his thought process. Nor did taking anyones. I think we are on the same page with our feelings on gun violence.
I do think a response with a taser would have been more than was waranted for a person handcuffed on the ground, but I was not there. And I don’t know what his training taught him to do.
Cops are people. Capable of making mistakes. They are resonsible for maintaing the peace and put themselves in harms way to protect us.
I’m not trying in anyway to minimize the death of a human being, or make it seem like he is not the reason why somebody is dead.
I just wanted to share with people what I know about Johannes. Just like people want to share their feelings about Oscar. In a way, two lives ended that night.
NEVER TRUST A COP!
To “TheTruth”….you pencil dick shithead! This man was begging for his life and cooperating! What gives any man the rihgt to shoot someone in the back because he or she is not “being nice?!” Were you people born on the shores of ignorance?!! Thanks Moog for your comment…at least some of us have a conscience! Has it occured to anyone that whenever this happens, it’s always a white officer killing a young, black male?? Why is Caylee still getting more press than this. Where are all the angry white americans that rose to the occassion to destroy O.J.? This was a murder…he did not need a taser or hand gun in this situation!! Why won’t the news show this as much as Caylee? And for the asshole “thetruth”, whites curse, spit and say whatever they want to the police….they don’t get shot until they shoot first!!!! Dickless faggot!!!
No one should ever trust a cop. They are mostly ex-jarheads who have a “shoot first and ask questions later” sort of mentality. They lie under oath, conceal facts and cover for each other constantly. Only when they are confronted with irrefutable facts (like video tape) will they ever break ranks.
And they wonder why they get called “pigs”! There’s a lot worse they could and should be called!
It’s time for the resurrection of an old San Francisco institution: the Committee of Vigilance to take care of scum like Mehserle and the ass-holes who will go out of their way to protect him.
dear cracker-fuckstick,
cops are NOT mostly ex-jarheads, they are just people who suffer from microphallus therefore affecting their self esteem!
sincerly,
ex-jarhead
YOPU MURDERING MOTHER FUCKERS!!! LITTLE MICROPHALLUS BOY SHOT HIM DEAD ASS IN THE BACK. WHAT THE FUCK ARE THESE ASSHOLES GETTING AWATY WITH, THEY HAD HIM FACE DOWN, YES FACE DOWN WITH TWO OTHER MURDERING MOTHER FUCKERS HOLDING HIM DOWN WHILE MICROPHALLUS BOY SHOT HIM IN THE BACK, SHOT HIM DEAD. IT TIME FOR EVERYONE DOWN THERE TO START CARRYING A GUN SO THEY CAN DEFEND THEMSELVES FROM THE LAWLESS MURDERING BART POLICE!!
HEY gottsaysomthing DID YOU WATCH THE VIDEO HE STOOD UP TOOK A STEP BACK REMOVED HIS FIRARM FROM HIS HOLSTER POINTED AT HIM A THEN MURDERED HIM!! THAT WAS NO ACCIDENT IT WAS PUPOSEFUL AND DELIBERATE!!!
ARE YOU STUPID OR JUST IGNORANT, MAYBE IT JUST WHAT YOUR COP HUSBAND HAS INDOCTRINATED YOU, ANYWAY WHAT A PIECE OF SHIT YOU ARE.
Cops wife // Jan 9, 2009 at 7:00 PM
I don’t think people have any right to post videos of this stuff on the internet. I don’t see that its anyones business except the officers about what went on. As a proud police wife I know for a fact that it was more than likely not on purpose that he grabbed the gun he was more than likely reaching for his taser. You people are sick that sat and videoed this you should really get a life and that is really sick that you posted it on line. Oh and another thing I get so sick of hearing people sit and bash cops and say nothing but crap about them, but then turn around and when they are in trouble cops are the first people they call so think about it next time that you talk bad about a cop think about who is going to be there when you need help.
Leo, of comment 27 -
Are you stoopid or wot? The passengers on flight 93 had ****cell phone calls**** informing them of the planes flying into the WTC. You live in a cave?
Somethings that still have not been mentioned regardless of whether or not it was an Execution or an accident please draw your own logical deductions from these insights;
1. most LEO’s choose that career path because they [drool/have fantasies] about being Jack Bauer and would love the opportunity to be a HERO (read: shoot a criminal if they are given the lawful opportunity to do so)
2. Our Government Exploits this subset of society by allowing them to become LEO’s with minimal requirements (no need for a college degree) yet the career path pays comparable to one who has chosen to complete college thus limiting the incentive to an interested college bound (read: intelligent) person in wanting to join the force.
3. LEO’s are allowed to Kill in the name of Crime Prevention a privilege not bestowed on the general citizenry
4. The general Citizenry is denied the right to be prepared for the use of legally justifiable self-defense (Read: the right NOT PRIVILEGE to carry a concealed firearm)
5. The Government has a vested interest in protecting it’s institutions from criminal and civil sanctions(i.e. if the executed guy’s family wins a 100 million dollar judgment that is an opportunity cost to the city in providing security for the rest by reducing the total outlay of cash available for law enforcement)
What can be deduced from these 5 statements in my mind are two solutions that Should be Aired immediately
Solution #1
As others have noted officer carelessness, whether malicious/callous/retarded has grown exponentially in recent years mandating the need for a prosecutorial body independent of the normal District Attorney’s office in each state with the sole purpose of investigating and prosecuting crimes perpetrated by law enforcement officers and their cohorts as well as superiors
Solution #2
A Supreme court precedent recognizing the right of the general citizenry to be prepared with a concealed weapon should they happen to be victimized in a situtation calling for justifiable self defense.
Solution 2 acknowledges a right considered sacred by the founding father’s that is the right to self defense none of the great legal commentators ever questioned a human beings right to self-defense if their life was in imminent danger what that translates to in modern times where criminals shoot good samaratins regularly is the right to carry the tools necessary for justifiable self-defense above and beyond any fundamental rights granted by the 2nd amendment. Legal scholars/attorneys/and judges need to seriously consider couching an individuals right to carry a concealed weapon under the fundamental right to self-defense and the logical deduction that one must be prepared to defend themselves should the situation arise.
Which also raises fairly clear equal protection issues i.e. why is it we have two classes of citizens in America those privy to be prepared to protect themselves with a concealed weapon (Read: a privilege granted to every off-duty LEO) and the rest of us normal law abiding citizens who are not? of course all restrictions that currently apply to ownership and possession of a firearm should continue but those who own a legally registered firearm should be able to carry it!!
You have bloods, crips, latin kings, and etc. All huge gangs known for their territorial beefs, violence, and members that range in the thousands. As violent as they may be, none is more notorious than the biggest gang in America…..”THE POLICE DEPARTMENT”. I’m not sure how many of you saw the execution, (or are just seeing the execution) that took place in an Oakland Subway by Bart Police, but come on enough is enough. How longer is it that these terriost can hide behind badges!?!….And not every cop is bad, its just the majority. Even in the Bart shooting after it took place, the rest of the cops stepped back in shock as if they were saying “why did you shoot him”. From Rodney King, to Jenna Six, to the Bart shooting, how much more will we take? As sad as it may be, I think that they will end up putting this cop, sorry I mean Terrorist, in some hick town and hope people forget what happen. I feel that the police are granted a certain amount of authority and I don’t have a problem with that. However, when that authority is abused then the consequences of their actions should be greater than that of a normal citizen. The same way it is for us. If you assault someone or murder someone then YES you will be arrested and convicted. But if you do the same to a police officer the time is greater and the punishment is worse. The same rules should apply to police officers who abuse the authority that they have been granted, but this can’t be done till we speak up and let our voices continue to be heard. In this situation the victim was on his back with his hands behind him and his face to the ground. It was said that the officer mistaken his pistol for a taser. If you can’t tell the difference then you shouldn’t be a cop!!! And if you were going for you taser, what was the reason for that? The victim was in custody waiting to be handcuff and the others were calmly on there knees waiting for the same. For what reason did this man need to be tasered, or even worse MURDERED? And if he was causing so much drama, then why are the people on the train so calm about the situation before the shooting took place. If he was a threat then someone would had stated that. Bottom line this Father, son, friend, was executed by the Police. This cop should be given the same treatment that the victim would had been given if he would had shot and murdered the cop. Think about that for a second. If the tables had been turned. If the cop was on the ground, hands behind his back and the victim shot and murdered him at that moment….what would his conviction be? Exactly, and that’s the same conviction this Terrorist deserves…
I challenge anyone from the person reading this comment to the Jay-Z’s, Al Sharptons, Obama, to Oprah…to pay close attention to the case and do their part to make sure justice has been served. Not only that we all need to voice our options to make sure this never repeats itself. Its 09, we put a black president in the white house….we can change the laws if we want to. And if we can’t change them…then we can at least make them fair.
MYSPACE.COM/MARVANDCASH
GOGGLE: MARV & CASH
You’ve got the right idea CRITICAL VIEW. And my comment on your solution #2 is that you do as we have here in Alaska, where we established the right of the people to carry a firearm whether concealed or not. I personally always have either my pistol or Winchester rifle with me at all times. It is not very common but not unusual to be shopping at the grocery store and the guy or gal shopping with you has their fiream strapped on. I personally think that it has had the additional bebnefit of making the general public and LEO’s a lot more polite upon initial contact with you. I had a friend up once from the lower 48 and got stopped for having my studs on too late in the year. The state Trooper came to my window said “Good Morning” and aske dif I had any fire arms in the vehicle. I responded, “Yes I have a pistol in the cnter console and my Rifle in the back of the truck cab.” Trooper said Thank you may I have your license and he went back to his car and wrote me a ticket. My friend was amazed that I wqasn’t immediately dragged out of the trucka and thrown across the hood and arrested. Our exchange continued and the Trooper finished his business with me in a like polite manner.
What people have to realize is that while they should cooperate with LEO’s they are by no means required to let them search them personally, search thier car, or any other invasive action. The LEO must state the reason that you have been stopped and detained, you are under no obligation to respond to thier questions other than with the polite response, “f I am not under investigative detention please allow me to leave.” Somene in a previous post mentioned the old standar tactic of LEO’s stopping you for a taillight and then excpanding thier encroachment to start searching your car. Remember they must tell you why they are detaining you, and you need only answer the questions pertainig to that identified item, (but don’t foget they cannot compel you to answer and use that to incriminate you 5th amanedment) when they ask if they can look in your car you should politely answer, No you may not, (4th amendment, unlawful search and siezure), if you are through may I leave? People in this country need to remember that they do have rights and they can exercise those rights without fear of reprisal. You have to stand up for yourself!! If they continue to treat you in a manner inconsistant with your rights ask to leave, refuse to answer, let them arrest you and then tell it to the judge, the newspaper and everyne who will listen. Alrighty then.
On a side note one of my favorite things to do is to pick those magnetic tags off on the merchandise I buy and put them in my pockets, and stick them to my belt and when I walk out of the store they ring those alarm posts. When they say, “May I see inside your bag?” I tell hem, “No you may not”, and continue on my way. I tell them “I don’t have to. If you think I stole something then arrest me other wise, Piss off.” No matter how hard they try to make you. YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO ALLOW THE INTRUSIVE AND INVASIVE action they want to try. You are innocent until proven guilty. If they put thier hands on you or otherwise attempt or cause you to be detained they have in fact “arrested you” and are now liable for civil tort for “false arrest” if they are wrong. Just remember you cannot have stolen anything and of course if you paid you know you did and that is all that is required you need not satify thier fishing expeditions. I find that it also helps educate what is otherwise a modern
“dumbed down” public that they indeed do have rights and just anybody cannot walk on you rights.
“Michael // Jan 9, 2009 at 5:33 AM
Burn and Loot. Kill any Pig. Fuck That. Avenge Oscar Grant”
Michael just gave permission to loot his place out of anger for what happened. Anyone know where he lives?
Hi people…
Just so you know, murder in this country, by legal definition, means that one person INTENTIONALLY caused the death of another. I don’t know what video you watched but the actions of the transit cop in question didn’t look as if he meant to kill the guy. I buy the taser theory more than anything else. Should he go to jail? Yes. The guy was already handcuffed so it wouldn’t even have mattered if he was reaching for a weapon. He didn’t require tasering. However, it’s NOT murder.
Riss,
What exactly did you see in that video that tells you he didn’t mean to kill Oscar Grant?
He pulled out his weapon, took aim and fired.
This wasn’t a gun going off accidentally while he was cleaning it or show it to somebody.
This wasn’t a bullet ricocheting off a wall or something.
This wasn’t a gun going off in a struggle and striking some innocent bystander.
He clearly aimed it at the suspect’s back and pulled the trigger.
If I pulled a gun out an officer and pointed it at him, I would be shot dead in a hail of bullets because police are trained to kill anybody who appears to want to kill them.
I bet if Oscar could do it all over, he would have kept his mouth shut and obeyed the officers’ commands.
Steve,
It looked as if he was doing just that.
I also feel that the officer that held down Oscar should receive accomplice liability BUT NOT the third officer whose hand was on another suspect as he spoke into his radio… not enough attention is being given to the 2nd officer who complicity allowed this execution to occur… note the third officers shock to the shooting as he puts his hand on his holster BUT DOES NOT DRAW HIS WEAPON whereas the OFFICER ASSISTING allows M. to shooting OSCAR.
regarding the speculation about whether he meant to pull his taser instead, my sister is a police officer and her department recently started carrying tasers.
she’s right handed, her gun, also a sig, is on her right hip. if she wants to use her taser, she has to reach across her body to her left side holster. no mistaking the gun for the taser. i don’t know how bart does it, but it seems to me a smart system her department has in place.
It always baffles me when people think rioting, looting, and killing are somehow “ok” when a cop does something wrong. Leaving whether it was murder, accident, whatever, aside for a moment, let’s assume it was premeditated from a month ago. Cop says, “I’m killing someone on New Year’s Eve.” EVEN with that outrageous notion, why is it now ok for you to kill other cops, riot (ie destroy other people’s property), and make stupid ass comments on blogs? If he was a “bad” cop who committed a violent crime, what right do you now have because of that? When all you Oakland gangbangers pull a drive-by, does whitey riot and recommend mass killings of black people? You people are nuts. Far too stupid to function in society. And I am amazed that you have the ability to use a computer and write down your ridiculous thoughts for the rest of us to endure.
It’s sad what happened. Leave it at that. Just like any other human killing another, it should be dealt with as such. Stop with your “kill the cops” and “riot” BS.
Steve, wrote
“I bet if Oscar could do it all over, he would have kept his mouth shut and obeyed the officers’ commands.”
True. However, I bet if Mehserle could do it all over, he wouldn’t have murdered Oscar.
Cash, I believe no human life should be valued higher than another. All human life, regardless of occupation, if taken illegally should carry the same punishment. It shouldn’t matter if the person is a cop or an old lady. The punishment should be the same.
The suspect WAS NOT cuffed, possibly until AFTER the shot was fired.
His arms are clearly dangling freely after the shot was fired. He was restrained, however, prior to the shot.
Notice the officers’ attitudes toward the remaining suspects after the shot, much more conciliatory than previously. They had clearly entered ‘damage-control’ mode, and the ‘tough-guy-with-gun’ attitude is gone.
strange days
I don’t approve of random violence, in the case of rioting and looting. However, had it not been for the rioting, would this case have garnered any national media attention?
In this case, rioting serves the important function of drawing attention to an egregious incident that would otherwise have been suppressed or overlooked.
Mike,
I started not to give your absurd post the dignity of response… but it’s YOU and not “your people” who had the audacity to form such a blatantly hate filled response.
I am equally baffled at the blanket assuptions you make that those who inhabit the group you refer to as “you people” are all ignorant and illiterate and as you say…
“You people are nuts. Far too stupid to function in society. And I am amazed that you have the ability to use a computer and write down your ridiculous thoughts for the rest of us to endure.”
I will merely say this… when several people are ranting and raving, it is EXTREMELY difficult to tell who the so-called sane, intelligent and literate one is. I found your comments as asinine as the ones you mentioned.
Go figure…
Vanessa:
POSTED: don’t feed the trolls
Arqueware,
Have you seen the slow motion version of the video. It think it shows the suspect was handcuffed.
http://carlosmiller.com/2009/01/09/slow-motion-video-of-bart-shooting-video-shows-more-details/comment-page-1/#comment-4069
So it was obviously a horrible accident. The circumstances of the shooting, wheather the cops were being dicks or the kids were thugs doesn’t matter.
It is however a bad thing if it is department policy to wear the taser in the offhand side and the officer choose to break the rules and instead wear it on his shooting hand side, thereby increasing the chance of an accident. I’m not a lawyer but that sounds like depraved indifference (if there is such a thing). Also the officers supervisor and every level of leadership at Bart is negligent for allowing him to carry it like this.
arquere:
Point taken….
perhaps they removed the cuffs after the shooting, Carlos, but the end of the video shows what appears to be his left arm hanging limply.
that’s all beside the point, which has been expressed clearly and repeatedly. The DA has charged the fugitive ex-officer with murder, pending any challenge of extradition.
I hope this is a life changing moment for all the people on the train. Here’s a suggestion of what you should do when dealing with a man with a gun: Defuse the situation or don’t do anything at all. Yell and scream and help incite the situation? Thats a BIG reason why the kid got shot.
You think that kid would have got shot if none of those other people were around yelling?
Cops a stupid freaking idiot which is about on par with the majority of the human population particularly those idiots on the train who couldnt keep there mouths shut.
When was the last shooting at this train station anyways oct 08?
Vanessa,
It is people like you who blow things like this into race issues. I never once said anything about black people being “you people”. “You people” was referring to the idiots on this forum who feel the need to post their unintelligent, racist, and baffling comments like “bad cop = we should riot”. Maybe it is you that needs a “sanity” check.
ACCIDENT: Watch the palm of his left hand and shrug of his shoulders in a “WTF?” motion immediately after discharge. ALSO WATCH HIM BRIEFLY BRING HIS HAND TO HIS FACE like “Holy Shit, what did I just do?!?” Tragic accident.
Fatal Rookie mistake.
Poor training.
Massive lawsuit.
Innocent man dies.
Guns and untrained cops don’t mix.
Never remove your weapon when subduing prisoners. I know. I’m a cop.
Mike,
I think when you said “you people” that you were subconsiously referring to African-Americans. I may be wrong, but that’s my opinion.
Vanessa,
If it’s any consolation, my brother was white, and he was killed by a white officer. The officer was acquitted of manslaughter charges, and we lost the civil case. To be honest with you, I didn’t see anything in the BART video to suggest that it was race related.
Two Socks,
I actually was not, but thanks for assuming all white people are racist. I was specifically referring to the posters themselves and I can’t tell from a computer screen what race, sex, or religion they are.
That’s the real problem here though. As you state to Vanessa, this doesn’t appear to be race related. Nobody but that officer knows what was in his head and in his heart, but like you point out, it does not appear to be racially motivated. The real problem is that any time an event happens to involve white and black people, it becomes a white VS black issue. Why? Why can’t it be that a man killed a man? Why can’t it be that a bad guy killed a good guy? From what I have heard, Oscar was a pretty good person. Of course every parent and family member says that about their “baby”, but I certainly have no evidence to the contrary. So we have a bad cop who killed a good kid. Not a white cop who killed a black kid. And for those who turn it into that, you are more racist for not wearing your color-blindness glasses than the employers, colleges, and other establishments who also incorrectly do not. We are all people, not races.
This is a sad situation and it sucks. This is America, however people die everyday and we don’t care and if this video was never made and the shooter wasn’t a cop, the majority of people wouldn’t care. People get shot everyday in a horrible situations and for reasons that it isn’t their fault, yet we are only saying something when it has been mediarized. Otherwise we go on with our own lives not caring about anyone else but our own. If the media doesn’t deem it important, then neither do we. It is 2009 and this country still has problems with race,if the police officer killed a white guy no one would care as much and that is the truth. Whether you want to believe it or not.
Sorry Mike. African-Americans have had to live with racism all of their lives. I know, because I have lived in the south all of my life. I can see how they would be cynical, but I think things are definitely improving. I never would have believed we would ever see an African-American president in our life times. It’s refreshing to see that it has finally happened.
No One,
A video speaks a million words. Something that can never really ever be adquately captured in writing. I agree that had there been no video it wouldn’t have remained mainstream news for this long.
It has remained mainstream news for so long because people are rioting, looting, and doing other insane acts because of it. If the kid was white or the cop was black or hispanic, this would be old news by now. Keep on playing the race card until America elects a minority President… oh wait, we did! Get off it, most white people aren’t racist as clearly demonstrated by us electing a black man to the most powerful position in the world!
Clearly America is mostly color blind, so stop perpetuating racism by adding race to every incident.
Mike, Two Socks, Vanessa, if you want to MAKE it into a race issue you should call up Sharpton, or Jackson they have spent a lifetime causing all kinds of controversy, and misunderstanding because if they didn’t then they would be out of a job.
And you all seem to have a good grip on how to do that yourselves, as it seems you all are reading volumes into sentence fragments, don’t have such a sensitive bunch of buttons that you push at will to make something out of nothing.
no one:
what you fail to comprehend is that
1) this was not mentioned in BIG MEDIA, not the way it should have been, not until the riots and people became outraged that nothing was being done.
2) the issue here is not that a white cop killed a black person, the issue is that a cop shot a human being when he had no possible reason to, and he did not only injure but KILL
3) everyone that does not want to face the fact that it is a police problem, not a race problem. The way cops are taught and allowed to behave is the real problem. You and others like you who might just be ignorant about this, or they might be defending the way police do their jobs, and thus are trying to equate this murder to a racial crime, and it is NOT. Whether the victim was black or white it would have been handled the same way by police, except if he was white then there might have been more chance that the reseult that we see now would not have happened, though the current result is not really a result because in the end he still might get off with no punishment.
4) people get shot everyday but not when they are laying face down with their hands behind their back with one cop with a knee on you neck and the other one shoots you in the back, not to mention he was not fleeing/he was not fighting back in a way that warranted the cop to even pull his GUN out… and the whole mistaken taser thing is ridiculous..and after reading the cop forums its sickening how police officers think.. their whole train of thought is not for the safety of the people they are protecting..nor innocent until proven guilty, they have a all guilty all the time mentality, the opposite of american law, they are the ones who should be protecting us, the ones who should have higher morals, not be a good officer when their happy and a different officer when their pissed about something that has nothing to do with the situation… police have the highest trust of the US government and the most important job in the USA, they carry a gun among civilians day to day and have the responsibility of not breaking the law but to uphold it, when an officer commits the highest possible crime against humanity and takes a life when he is sworn to protect it it is very different than a normal every day shooting. do you see anything different than the regular every day shootings Yes this might happen more often day to day and not be reported or lied about in reports because facts show police take care of their own, by lying and changing small facts to fit what will be the best outcome for them, maybe the guy was a murdering drug dealer but i had no right to a warrant so ill place this cocaine in a way that i could have seen it so it gave me probably cause… get the drifto?
anyway you look at this.. if the victim was white or if he was black… that changes nothing in this case.. the only positive thing is that since he was black there was more of an outrage and the police department had no choice but to follow through with a real investigation (if that is what it is and not just a smoke screen to make the public not hate that police department) i feel if the victim was white there would not have been riots… not because blacks are more tempered or angry but because cops on blacks has been going on and at a higher rate and level than cops on whites for decades.
i dont understand how anyone can defend the cop at all, he even quit the force because anyone that did not feel they commited a crime would have defended themselves and kept doing their job, but he quit the force because he was trying to get away. Sure he did not flee the country, but someone who is not from outside the US most likely wont have anywhere to go, and he knows that even if he goes to jail for 20 years that he wont be treated as bad as the other inmates because he is one of their own (the gaurds and the prison system) …
i really hope he gets what he deserves in our legal system and not what his connections and pba card entitle him to. Sickening that the ones who are supposed to protect us are more dangerous than the ones who are criminals, a criminal will think twice before shooting, a cop wont.
Chuck,
I just want to ask you one question. Be honest with me now. Was the Rodney King beating a race issue? A yes or no answer will suffice.
I think this is absolutley disgusting and what is worse you have some idiots on this board justifying by saying “hes houldn’t have been acting rowdy with his friends”. Hell m and my friends get drunk when we go out and have a hell of a prty – I hope this doent’t justify me getting shot in the back. If you can see this and justify it, then you are an evil racist simple and plain!
Richy, I agree with you. I was out partying with my brothers. My baby brother never made it home. I think generally that cops typically escalate a situation as opposed to deescalating a situation. They’ll take a simple argument, and turn it into a fist fight. They’ll take a simple fist fight, and turn it into gun fight. They’ll take a gun fight, and turn it into a massacre.
The worse thing about that video is THAT IT IS COMMON.
This happens more than 100 times a year. Cops have been traditionally trained to harass Blacks and Hispanics. If they were white they would not have even used the knee to hold them down.
It the mentality of American Justice.
the following is not a blanket statement about all whites. But it does apply to a good portion of them and it also applies to people of color in law enforcement.
FOLLOW THIS FOR A SECOND.
When slavery was abolished whites would still shun and treat blacks like they were not human. Lynchings went on a sharp rise. Blacks were afraid to go to the law official because that usually ment that they were gonna be lynched soon by the law and some rural blue collar red necks in the KKK.
So what happened was blacks stopped trusting the police and stopped reporting the crimes against them that were carried out by whites.
Eventually, the LAW OFFICERS started coming to their settlements and committing crimes there against blacks. It was a polices and white peoples pass time.
They would bring their kids to see the black men and women tortured and hung. They would teach their children these practices and some would take their sons out to participate in their first lynching like a right of passage.
These children grew up to become law officers and judges. So as lynching became less popular, they switched it to in justice thru the courts and exclusion from prosperity.
the police of the 70’s and 80’s were the children of people who would grew up with parents that taught them that blacks are less than human and probably took them to see lynchings.
A white man would go to court for theft and because he returned the item or had the money to pay he would hardly ever get jail time. Black men who went to courts with the same charge would get 2-5 years.
In the 80’s they would and still do give out more time for crack than powdered cocaine. This was mainly because crack was in the black neighbor hoods and cocaine was normally a white persons drug.
The pattern of police became arresting people who they thought didn’t know their right and could not afford attorneys. Lots of people were arrest simply because they didn’t know their rights or did have money.
It was an easy target for police because they knew that the push back would come due to economic situation.
Meanwhile in the middle to upper class neighborhoods people had money to not only hire a lawyer to defend them but to also file a wrongful arrest law suit. Police who would dtick to arresting the poor were less likely to have a lawyer after the city and their jobs.
This practice taught the already skewed police to arrest blacks & hispanics more. their tactics were hardly ever questioned unless the arrestee was white.
Blacks knew this so they started running whenever they would see a police officer. They would turn and walk the other way. Walking turned to all out running even when they had committed no crimes EVER.
You se, just as the white racist of the south taught their children that blacks were sub-white or sub-human and its ok to kill one.
Blacks were teaching their kids not to speak back to a white man or they will lynch you. They taught you stay away from the police or they will get you. The police became the boogie man to blacks.
Even today if you go to a not so middle, middle class black area and have a bunch of honor roll students sitting around the park chatting. They will all get quiet and begin to leave or want to leave. Its not that they have committed a crime its just history has taught them to have a fear of law enforcement and justice systems because they are there to capture hispanics and blacks.
THIS IS AN AMERICAN MENTALITY
example 1:
Watch the news when a Hispanic lady accidently allowed her son to drown in scalding water . The first thing you heard about her was how negligent she was and how she wasn’t fit to be a mother.
When Andrea Yate drowned all of her children the first thing we heard about her is she has been struggling with depression, and that it was sad that her treatment didn’t work. Not that she was a monster or a bad parent.
example 2:
The same day that Timothy Nicols shot >4< people at an atlanta court house, Terry Ratzmann shoot and killed 7 people in a church (4 injured also). The first thing that i heard about him was that he had been suffering from depression and other wise was a nice guy.
Brian Nicols was described as a very dangerous menace. He was a huge black man and ready to kill.
example 3:
During the presidential campaign 2 mean climbed the NY times building. They both climbed to the top and was arrested immediately.
One said he climbed to raise awareness of global warming. The other said he wanted to raise awareness of malaria in Hattie because his mother and cousin died of the disease.
They both went to court without representation.
The New York Times wrote this about the conclusion:
“”"…..While a grand jury dismissed all criminal charges against Mr. Robert, grand juries indicted Mr. Clarke and Mr. Malone on several charges, including misdemeanor reckless endangerment, which is punishable by up to a year in jail. The cases against Mr. Clarke and Mr. Malone are pending…..”"”
We already know the difference But Mr. Roberts had a criminal record also. Mr. Clarke didn’t have a criminal record.
We have a problem America and it starts with our way of thinking about the other races. That guy will not be the last to be shot.
As far as my examples they are 3 out of millions.
WHAT THAT COP DID IS COMMON AND SHOULD BE EXPECTED IN THE MOST RACIST WESTERN COUNTRY AVAILABLE TO NAME.
TwoSocks,
Rodney King? Really? You do realize that the actual facts were that only the last 4 strikes of the 76 inflicted were deemed “excessive”. That means the first 72 were warranted as clearly demonstrated by King’s repeated attempts at fighting and failure to comply with the officers. And who of you who have been in a fist fight would have the control in that kind of situation to throw 70+ punches and then stop immediately as to say, “oh that last one was just enough, no more” without throwing 2 or 3 “unnecessary” ones? Give me a break. If you want to use an example of injustice, use a real one. I’m not saying I advocate violence against anyone, but if you fight the police and get worked over, that’s on you. (Not saying that this relates to Oscar in any way, just pointing out that Rodney King is not a good example of “cops gone bad”.)
Mike,
Thankyou, you have verified conclusively to everyone here that you are a racist son of a bitch. Now if we can just get Chuck’s opinion on this topic. Chuck where are you?
Mike,
I think you need to rewatch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROn_9302UHg
Your analysis is absolutely wrong!
TwoSocks,
Yeah, I’m the racist. You were probably cheering when they read the OJ verdict. I’m sorry the facts of Rodney King discount your ability to make everything in life about race.
TwoSocks,
By the way, do you even know what Rodney King was on parole (YES PAROLE) for when he was beaten? Any guesses? Ding, ding, ding! He beat a convenience store clerk with a tire iron. Hmm… might want to pick a better “messiah” when crying poor “Rodney”.
No Buddy,
You’re wrong about that. I think O.J. is guilty.
It’s ironic that you mention O.J. Do you want to know why O.J. was acquitted? Believe it or not. It was because of racist cops tampering with the evidence. All of the evidence that could have convicted O.J. was thrown out. The officers involved were trying to make sure that O.J. got convicted. It backfired.
Mike,
Did you watch the video? Without knowing anything about King’s past and being objective, do you think that video looks okay to you?
TwoSocks,
Granted Ferman was a racist SOB, but I too would be “trying to make sure that O.J. got convicted” considering he murdered two people with a knife. With a KNIFE! Not like pansies these days who pull a trigger. He got up close and personal and slit throats! That’s a hard core M-erF-er. And a chorus of cheers rang out on that day… a sad day in history.
TwoSocks,
Do you know that the video everyone saw was edited? Did you know that? It was 81 seconds long and TV showed 68 seconds. They failed to show the part where the 250 man blew off two tazings like nothing and then charged officers. He’s lucky he wasn’t shot. The reason that the officers weren’t convicted was that the entire video along with a lot of other facts were presented. The media made it into something more horrible than it was. All we saw was 4 cops with batons hitting someone for no apparent reason. Do you know that King had two passengers who were arrested without a scratch before the drunk King decided to go WWF with officers? These “racist” officers took two into custody without an incident and then King chose not to go with the program. He was charging officers AFTER 2 TAZINGS and you bet your ass you’d be swinging for the fences too. Cut to video at this moment and it looks like poor man being beaten. Not quite the case.
Well Mike,
I agree that O.J. shouldn’t have gotten away with it, but that doesn’t make it right for cops to frame people. They must be above that.
Anyways, I guess we are getting a little off topic here. I know some folks here think that cops should be held to a higher standard than us mere civilians. I happen to agree. I’m thinking that whatever crime a cop is found guilty of the court should kick it up to the next tier. So, if this officer is found guilty of voluntary manslaughter, it should automatically get bumped up to 2nd degree murder, because he is a cop. What do you think? Or maybe double the maximum sentence normally given?
I guess I’ve never seen the whole video. Why can’t four officers physically man handle King without resorting to beating him to an inch of his life?
He was done for those last 68 seconds from what I see. They should of just put the cuffs on him and been done with him. They made it very personal.
who said rodney king?
These Statements are NOT blanket statements. If you are offended then your one of the people i am talking about.
rodney king and OJ neither relates to this. the only people who yell anger at oj in my experience is people who hated the verdict but loved that kenedys got off for Chapaquitic (however its spelt).
Rodney king was excessive but he helped the situation too. The only people who yell Rodney king are the uninformed blacks that think its a good example.
Sean Belle – good example
the guy who was shot at his front door in ny – good example.
Rodney King is a black mans cry to find an example when he has not read very much. Same as whites screaming OJ Did it!!!!!!
I am black but i get tired of hear people of my race holla murder. Before it happened what was ya doing about it.
Just like Farah Kann he points out all the problems with black unity but then refuses the NAACP, Nation BLK Caucus, and any other black organization, when they want to team up on an initiative.
White are doing the same accept they don’t know any better. Its not that they don’t think this guy who was shot was in the wrong. Its just they would prefer to continue thinking that blacks and hispanics are that dangerous. That way they don’t have to feel guilty about being a RURAL BLUE COLAR RIGHT WING SEPARATIST AMERICAN VOTER. they are the Sarah Palin wing from the more American parts of America, where there is less diversity.
White people in that category wouldn’t think that the cops were wrong if they shot a black preacher in his bed, on his 50th wedding anniversary, in the middle of his sleep.
By The Way
the definition of evangelical is:
a christian that thinks diversity is against god. Back in the slave days they were called Christian.
Once they realized that blacks were christian they switched to Evangelical. Never seen a black , latino or asian call them selves Evangelical. Hmmmmmmmmm?
Hey Jeff R,
I don’t believe that OJ is innocent. His recent conviction kind of confirms that he had potential to do the crime. He definitely had a motive. If he didn’t do it, then who did? Is the case still open? Are the police still looking for the killer?
I don’t believe that Ted Kennedy is innocent either. He went off the bridge with the girl in the back seat. He left her to drown. He tried to get a cousin to take the blame for him. That’s three felonies: leaving the scene of an accident with injuries; manslaughter; obstructing an investigation and providing false information. He was never charged with a crime. What a travesty of justice.
Two Socks, its not a Yes or No answer, I don’t know what he did or was doing when he started to get beat, he apparently was a person of poor judgement in his life prior, and again ran afoul of the law later. If he wanted to fight the officers than they should have at least let him go at it with one officer in a fist fight, took his lumps and walked away.
Answer me this was it okay for all the people who rioted and beat people indiscriminatly because of what happened? You can pontificate beyond YES or NO.
Chuck,
No it was not okay to riot and beat up people, especially in their own neighborhoods. I guess I will never understand that mentality. Will someone out there please explain?
However, what I will say if the Rodney King riot didn’t occur, those four officers would have walked free with no charges or convictions. You agree right?
No I do not agree, they did riot and so we (you) will never know what would have happened had the riot not occurred. You apparently feel that the only reason that the officers were sanctioned is because of the riot. The only thing I can agree on right now is you are bound and determined to make a racial issue out of it. (possibly anything) Because of your determination I sure you are only interested in furthering the very feelings that you are seeminly against.
Hey JEFF R. I don’t know where you live but I live in Alaska and we have about the most ethnically diverse population in the nation! Chinese, Russian, Korean, Inuit, Indian, Anglo, Mexican, Polish, Black, African, besides that as I noted previously citizens of Alaska may carry a firearm open or concealed our LEO’s treat us with a little more respect.
Chuck,
I have to admit. I am cynical of cops. I probably will always be cynical, because of what happened to me and my family. I don’t think that all cops are bad just most of them at least down here in the south. The way you describe Alaska sounds like heaven. We’re all human beings. How much spitting and jeering can a good officer take before he reaches that last straw? I just see them as walking timebombs waiting to go off. Which reminds me. Has everyone here seen “Anger Management”? I wonder if a program exist that is anything like this for cops?
I am very sensitive anytime a cop takes a human life whether deserved or not. In the back of my mind, I always think that they could have done more to deeescalate the situation and save this person’s life. Cops just seem quick on the draw especially if they are racially profiling.
Gotta say something wrote,
“Johannes is not a racist idot who became a cop so he could get a gun and kill someone.
I knew him when I was in grade school up until college. He was bright and mild mannered.
Please don’t wish violence upon Johannes because I know he is tormented inside.”
“Gotta say something” you make it sound like he was an honorable, respectful, and a repentant man. If this is indeed the case, why didn’t he cooperate with Internal Affairs? Why did he try to make a run for it? He could have easily gotten police protection for his family. Why didn’t he make a heart-felt apology to Grant’s family? None of his actions up to this point indicate a man of honor.
Chuck,
that maybe true but Sarah Palin doesn’t represent it very well.
alaska demographics:
3% black
4.6% asian
4% Latino
15% american indian
the smallest percentage is black and combined blk,asian,latino makes up 11.6%. The lowest combined total of any state.
Meaning Sarah Palin had the ability to live in many areas where there was no diversity at all.
But thats beside the point, as far as rioting effecting the outcome.
They didn’t charge the officer who tazered the handcuffed black man that was too disoriented to walk after the 4th tazer shot in 1 hr. who started bleeding from the mouth after the 6th tazer shot. who died after the 9th. NO RIOT NO CHARGE.
the officers who shot Sean Belle are still free and did not even get suspended until they marched in NY. NO RIOT NO CHARGE.
The officer who beat the mentally handicap boy at the gas station is at work right now. NO RIOT NO CHARGE.
Jena 6 was strait up wrong and the court system in that town was making public statement about how they were gonna be much more severe to blacks than whites if they made a big deal out of the already racist system. NO RIOT NO CHARGE.
When they did riot and the media flooded the city they gave all but one of the boys dismissed charges.
The prosecutor admitted to being racist and went to the school to assemble the black students to tell them that, ” he could take their life away with his pen…” and in the same speech said that,” white students were given lenient treatment because they contribute more to society.” That prosecutor is also at work today.
Its not that i think that people need to riot to get justice but when you look at the situations in which there were riots and there were not it seems that the rule is NO RIOT NO CHARGE.
I hate even talking about the Rodney ‘dumb ass’ King incident but since its been put as a question to me i will say this.
If you walk up to a officer and say hi and he hits you you will walk away that 1st time.
If you approach another man without color and he hits you you are angry and you will still try to walk away.
After it happens in most situation dealing with whites then you start to believe that whites want to hit you most of the time. Then comes the one that break the straw and crosses a line.
At that point there are no good and bad white people because the actions of the whites are so common and wide spread thats when you just SNAP.
at that point there is no need to distinguish who is a fair white or who is the unfair white. All whites are bad and regardless of social belief or fairness there is no desire to believe any different. Kill white is now running rapidly thru the city.
Why didn’t those crooked officers think about the over-all marketing that was going on. They kept doing things to poor people in la who once again DIDN’T KNOW THEIR RIGHTS and had those rights systematic circumvented at every turn y LA cops.
New York is on the same path. Cops are violating the rights of the people they perceive to be poor or uneducated. If it doesn’t stop they will have a much worse riot than LA.
thats my last comment about a Rodney ” I’m so stupid” King.
Jeff R,
I am white and I think the Kennedy coverup is appalling. Maybe moreso than King, OJ, or the BART shooting. The notion that money and power can buy your way out of justice is wrong, no matter what color, religion, or gender you are.
I do agree with TwoSocks that police should be held to a higher standard. They are entrusted with great power and to abuse that power is a slap in the face to those who give it. But I think one thing that people lose sight of is that cops are human. They are normal people. Many people have this idea (maybe subconsciously) that cops are somehow “super people” and never do anything “bad” and when they turn out to be just like everyone else, a piece of people’s fictional world crumbles. Some cops drink and drive, some cops use drugs, some cops hit their wives. You know why? They are human, just like you and me. I’m not saying that they are allowed to do those things, just like I don’t think anyone is allowed. But if they do it (and it really is only a few), it shouldn’t be the shock of the century. They are human. Their job, movies, and TV have made them out to be extra special. In reality, they are just “cleaner than most” people who usually try to do a decent job each day. We don’t flip out when a Burger King worker kills his neighbor, but if a cop gets a DUI, it’s a news story.
I’d just like to say that for all of you who hate police, think about who they are before you chose to hate them. They are normal people with lives like you and families like you. If you hate cops, then you probably have issues in your life that have caused you to have dealings with them. Yes, they arrest people. People who do illegal things. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.
Mike wrote,
“They are normal people with lives like you and families like you. If you hate cops, then you probably have issues in your life that have caused you to have dealings with them. Yes, they arrest people. People who do illegal things. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.”
Mike, first you need to consider your audience and who you are dealing with before you lay some spill on them. Your speech is great for a group of upper class bleeding-heart liberal college kids that have never experienced being mistreated by cops.
I would guess that the majority of the people blogging here have been mistreated horribly by the police. You can’t expect someone like me, my family, Oscar’s family, Carlos, or others to suddenly drop their issues with cops and embrace them. We are not disgruntled, because the police caught us doing a crime and we went to jail. We are disgruntled, because we were seriously illegally violated by rogue cops. Look I can’t speak for everyone else, but I will tell you flat out right now that you are wasting your time with me.
You say that they are normal people. Well I say that law enforcement is a magnet for bullies and people with inferiority complexes that happen to weasel their way past the psycological entrance screening exam. I personally happen to know of a few officers that were weak, picked on, and runts in school, and later decided to work out with weights and become a cop.
I understand that cops make mistakes, but the problem is much larger than a few bad cops. It’s the system that bends over backwards to downplay their crimes and keep them out of jail when they screw up.
Two Socks first of all Police officers should never be spit on, jeered, or intentionally disobeyed. They are an enforcement organization and your civic reponsibility is to ber respectful of that duty. Individual LEO may behave poorly but that does not relieve your of your responsibility to be respectful. They are NOT reponsible to deescalate your (anyone’s)behavior.
Jeff, youre right it is beside the point because the point is that we are all Americans and the slice of races in the country really mean nothing . Laws and social expectations apply to Americans. It doesnt matter at all whether you feel slighted as a EuroLatinoPolishBlackman you are really an American and the slices of a persons heritage matter only within the family group and historians. Once you arrive here and take the oath of citizenship you become American. Yes when someone walks up to you and punches you in the face you walk away, you do that again and again when it happens. The minute you “snap” and hit them you are guilty of assault as well and the law does not differentiate the penalty based on the story, you both are equally guilty of assault. The circumstances do not matter. If I kept getting punched in the face I certainly would find another place to go and hangout. And if KILL WHITEY becomes the call of the day then those who are voicing KILL WHITEY need to be rounded up and dealt with for the good of the greater general public at large who, all whether punchers or not deserve the public peace. The problem with people these days seems to be that everyone thinks what they think is the way it should be, well that’s just selfish ignorance, it has nothing to do with the individual it is the general population at large that must be served. That’s how California got to be the land of fruits and nuts, everyone thinks they should have thier little thought converted to everyone else, and so you have what you do now there you have so many little things passed into law that the state is broke as a vagrant and cannot even afford to run the goverment, not to mention the taxes . Secondly people these days refuse to take responsibility for thier actions, we have no sense of personal responsibility, its always someone else’s fault or sombody else should have sone something to save me from doing this or that. Unfortunately we have become a society that thinks that the way of the world is instant gratification. So we have the situation we have today, people living beyond thier means charging thier life to credit cards, not being able to do the simple math to see if they can afford that mortgage, our eyes just see the shiny new house or shiny new car our schools fail to educate our children in the simplest of required skills, how to balance a checkbook, make a budget, how to save money. Unfortunately the peolle who do not have those skills are going to have to be rescued from themselves by the goverment. The real sadf part is that those responsible people are going to get shafted by having to pay for the idiots as well, agin the general public at large is what matters. The UAW has for years been getting workers paid for menial minimum wage tasks be cause we think that we al DESERVE to have 2 cars,a dvd, huge t.v., RV, etc.. No you only deserve those things if you know how to budget and SAVE for them. I personally think that the auto companies should be allowed to fail, merge or whatever. However I also realize that it is not good for the general public at large for that to happen.
As a side note I think that the goverment should give me a voucher for a new car! I can then present that to the auto manufactures and get an auto. The company would be getting autos made and it would take years to make all those autos, and if the goverment required the auto makers to produce a fuel and pollution efficient auto then again the general population at large would benefit getting all the old polluting gas guzzlers off the road. Seems like a good plan to me
I know that it took my parents 52 years together to get thier home, cars, and anything else they wanted they saved to get it. And like my parents, nobody can take anything away from me, as I have paid for it all. so in summary each and every person is responsible for thier actions and how they affect the general public at large. It is your responsibility as a citizen of this republic to defer to what is best for the general public at large. That’s why we vote, and that’s why the majority voice speaks. Ther has been progress in changing the social fabric of this nation and it will continue to change, as the generations pass and new generations vote, the change will occur but like saving for something you want you have to have patience as the tide turns because instant gratification in life does not produce anything at all but difficulty and more selfishness. This nation is in for trouble when people learn they can vote themselves a rebate or relief for thier poor judgement then we are done as a nation. We already have survived longer than any other goverment form of a similar type, but we are fast headed down the socialist road. But once again the gereater general public will take us there.
TwoSocks,
It is not my sole analysis. The video also doesn’t capture the first 3 minutes of the encounter. Too bad Holliday wasn’t out there sooner with that thing. That’s like watching them execute Manson and saying, “why did they kill that poor man”. You need context before forming an opinion. Three UNDISPUTABLE FACTS that the officers knew at the time were that he was a parolee, he was heavily intoxicated (.19), and he was very large (250lb). Based on those three alone, any non-compliance warranted their use of tazers. The first failed to knock him down. The second knocked him down but he got right back up. That is when the assumption was made that he was on PCP. That was an incorrect assumption, but in the moment, when a guy fights through 2 tazings (the wonder tool) and comes at you, think about what you’d do. Anyway, I don’t think we need to belabor Rodney. Were(are) those cops racist? Maybe, who knows. But the beating itself was not indicative of racism, more like, “holy crap, this guy can’t be stopped.”
I just re-watched the video. The officers certainly needed to show more restraint. That is what most of us “think” we would have done. When a guy is on the ground, barely moving, it’s time to stop swinging for a moment and re-assess the situation. But we also can’t be in someone else’s shoes. It’s hard to judge what they were thinking when previous attempts at subduing him were unsuccessful.
TwoSocks,
I don’t know what part of the country you live in, but most of California is very PC and officers are almost held to a ridiculous standard when dealing with the public. If you or others have been mistreated, that is certainly uncalled for. But here, most cops are required to be “courteous” even when dealing with the vile. To be a female officer and be called “c*nt” by some POS and then be expected to say please and thank you to that garbage is almost too much. I understand the need for professionalism, but if you’re picking up trash, you’re going to get dirty.
That said, I have heard about the good ‘ol boys who still exist throughout the midwest in hick towns. But that certainly isn’t representative of “cops” in general. Most people and therefore cops, live on the coasts, and most coastal states are extremely liberal and overly protective of people’s rights and even their “feelings”.
I live in a city about as coastal as you can get. And although it is very southern in geography, it it not in culture.
But we got some of the most abusive cops in the country down here in Miami.
Two socks, on the tazer x 6 issue, I long ago was an investigator for a private corporation and during a street survival class we were presented with the case of a man on PCP who threatened LEO’s with a weapon, and it took 39 hits from several officers 9mm’s to bring him down, he even fired and reloaded during this. so you have to know all the circumstances before you make a judgement, alcohol cuases loss of judgement and inhibition, and drugs can cause the physical and emotional stae of invincibiltiy.
Chuck we are not far off in views.
people especially younger people (sub 30) need to wake up. There is a culture that glamorizes thug life and they love it.
They sag their pants, get tattoos, say things like screet, fidna, Bo and skrimps, some refer in public, carry guns like its an iPod or a new style jean. These same Amos and Andy ass dummies wonder why the cops are messing with them while they roll a blunt in the car. Or brandish a gun in a picture with their friends.
If i were a cop i would probably be considered a racial profiler or a style profiler. The first white boy i see acting like he strait outta Compton with rims i would pull his ass and look for anything that could remind me of a pill, powder, or pot. Its an easy target. They dress like idiots, talk like idiots, so to me it has to be a duck. lol
IF YOU DRESS AND ACT LIKE AND IDIOT THEN YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT YOU GET AND NOBODY CAUSED IT BUT YOU AND YOUR DECISION.
in that way i understand the cops. but to get to MIKES point about them being human. Mike you are correct they are humans who are in a job that makes them think they are not. They have it hard because they have a lot of people who don’t respect anyone other than another cop.
My brother is a cop and before he was he would listen to people with the expectation of that person being a good human. Now, he is skeptical of any and everything said. We use to hangout 3x a month and he would come to my house 2ics at least. The job has changed him.
I don’t know why cops get less mental evaluations than guys on the oil rigs or soldier at sea. A good cop doesn’t go bad overnight. If the cops had mental evaluations quarterly, then i think things would be better and cops would strangle, suffocate, beat, shoot, or tazer people as often. They could catch it.
I don’t have a record other than 3 speeding tickets and a fight with my brother as a ivy leaguer. Its true ivy leaguers do have a different set of laws they don’t have to follow. IT’s A MONEY and perception THING.
America is the most racist place that they call free. Its a fact and no matter how many folks like Chuck and Mike exsist there are folks who are extreme right republican or extremely isolated and uneducated that will never see blacks as equal or upstanding.
My girlfriend is i have had at least 20 girlfriends other than 7 black ladies my dating represents 9 countries. My current lady is Korean (probably the one to marry) She has been in america for 22 months. She has told me at least 50x that she thinks that blacks do not get treated fairly and people have the wrong idea about it. She also thinks that republican mean you kinda don’t like other races. She had that epiphany watching the republican nation convention.
i met her 3 months after she arrived in america and the first intimate question she asked about race was. Why do whites treat other races like they are stupid?
How did she get that impression if America doesn’t show it?
ONE MORE THING:
if 2 people call me an idiot then i dont care. If 10 people do it then i will say they just dont understand me. If thousand say it. IT MUST BE TRUE.
Tens of Millions say that American Whites are extremely racial and that they have a superiority complex.
tens of millions say this.
I know that it is just a subset of whites now maybe 35% but thats a new number when bush 43 was there that number was way way higher. So, its up to whites to teach other not as open-minded whites that America is 62% people of color and that number will be higher every year. Until every one is the same.
“I long ago was an investigator for a private corporation and during a street survival class we were presented with the case of a man on PCP who threatened LEO’s with a weapon, and it took 39 hits from several officers 9mm’s to bring him down, he even fired and reloaded during this. so you have to know all the circumstances before you make a judgement, alcohol cuases loss of judgement and inhibition, and drugs can cause the physical and emotional stae of invincibiltiy.”
Chuck, this example raises more questions than it answered. One well placed shot to the head would have instantly brought the man down dead, and it wouldn’t matter what kind of drugs he was on or how invincible he felt. You can’t defy the laws of physics no matter how hard you try. What were these officers doing? Were they trying to see how many bullets this guy could take in the legs, arms, and non vital areas before he collasped? He should have started bleeding to death from the first hit to the torso. How could he have stayed conscious long enough to get another 38 more bullets into him?
Preface for the remarks; I am 51 my wife is 39 I grew up in the midwest, she grew up in California, Africa, and Central America as her parents were career State Department officers.
She threw up in my face one time about the horrible history of T.V (she does not watch television) the show Archie Bunker and how racist it was.
I was watching Public Television station the other night and I heard something interesting. The program was about the history of comedy. They were moving through the years and they came to the Archie Bunker Show. I was surprised when Norman Lear the writer and producer said, that they knew they were broaching untested ground and so they figured if they were in for a penny they were in for a pound (if you make fun of one group you make fun of them all). He was stunned when he found that they started to recieve 5,000 or so letters a week and they almost all related that the writer had been watching the show and when they looked in the mirror to shave they found they did not like what they saw there!! Its interesting that this had the effect it did on people. and again that is changing but like evolution it is slow and changes a little from generation to generation. I personally could care less what some other person has to say to me. I have a t-shirt that reads;
—The more of my faults you learn to overlook then the less of them you will have to forgive.
And once again openminded or not, person of color or not. we are all Americans, the sooner people realize this and act like an Anmerican and Speak American there will continue to be friction from those who have their heels dug in refusing to become American.
In the dark of my home and property at night I will really never be able to see your skin color or your ethnic heritage until I turn on the light to see your dead ass on the floor of my home.
The greatest thing about America (to quote a movie I like) is that America is advanced citizenship, you have to want it, its not easy. I would stand and listen to you in public on a box speaking at the top of your voice that which I would oppose at the top of mine, and defend your right to do that.
Jeff R,
You have a valid point on how these younger people are acting and thus causing alot of their own problems.
I have an answer … education … education .. education. I can’t stress it enough. It is the most important decision that a young person will ever make in his lifetime period.
TwoSocks,
I have found you to be very intelligent in your responses on this blog, however your latest regarding “one to the head” does not fall in line with the rest. Movies make cops out to be super-snipers and bad guys die instantly when hit with any bullet (unless it’s the arch enemy of the protagonist). Cops do not shoot for the head. The head is a small target. Cops aim for center of mass. That is mid torso. You can’t say in one post how cops are borderline retarded, but then you expect them to be super snipers with a handgun. Do you have any firearm experience? Hitting the head with real adrenaline going is near impossible from anything further than a few yards. That’s like the people who say, “why didn’t the cop shoot him in the leg instead of kill him?” Well, for one, they are taught to aim for center of mass and two cops only shoot to kill. There is no such thing as “shoot to wound”. There is no such thing as “shoot the gun out of their hand”. That is movie BS. Only a handful of real life snipers have ever taken a “shoot the gun shot” in a hostage situation because it’s not very likely that they’ll hit it (moving target, wind, adrenaline) and a miss could mean dead hostages. When you empty a magazine into a threat, it’s shoot to kill and you aren’t aiming for the head. It’s “aim for that center of that blob in front of me” because that’s what adrenaline and a real life situation looks like.
This was not meant to put you down in any way. Only to highlight how the view you have, which is shared by 95% of America, is so skewed from reality.
Please continue the discussion as I have begun to look forward to your usually very intelligent and articulate responses.
(I am not talking out of my ass on this one. Both myself and my brother are officers and I have a little more real life info on the subject.)
Something I read about six months ago;
About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:
‘A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.’
‘A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.’
‘From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.’
‘The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years’
‘During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:
1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
3. from courage to liberty;
4. from liberty to abundance;
5. from abundance to complacency;
6. from complacency to apathy;
7. from apathy to dependence;
8. from dependence back into bondage’
Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline UniversitySchool of Law, St. Paul , Minnesota , points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential election:
Number of States won by: Democrats: 19 Republicans: 29
Square miles of land won by: Democrats: 580,000 Republicans: 2,427,000
Population of counties won by: Democrats: 127 million Republicans: 143 million
Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Democrats: 13.2 Republicans: 2.1
Professor Olson adds: ‘In aggregate, the map of the territory Republican won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great country. Democrat territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government welfare…’ Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the ‘complacency and apathy’ phase of Professor Tyler’s definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation’s population already ;having reached the ‘governmental dependency’ phase.
Chuck,
Professor Olson forgot to factor in the education and income level of democratic urban areas compared to republican rural areas..
Chuck no election won by george bush was legal regardless of what they say no one thinks that he DID NOT cheat.
But i also read that before communism there is democracy. Russia wasn’t always a communist country.
We just watched the complacency part for 8 years.
carlos – education and desire will determine an individuals sucess, nothing else. please don’t act like rural republican america is any more educated, they just get to go to work earlier (14 or so) and education is by the sweat of the brow, they might if anything have a better understanding of the work it takes to make it in the world, the urban democrats have mearly traded hard work for sittin on the couch checks.
To me it doesn’t matter what the debate continues to be its past history and those who live in the past are doomed to relive it. I am neither republican nre a democrat, what this country needs is a second and even a third party to choose from. Both the main stream partie have thier many faults.
Also let’s not be confused this country is not a democracy it is a republic (a form of democratic republic maybe). If it was a democracy then the electoral college would not exist, and the popular vote would tell the tale.
Chuck,
What I was saying is that if you’re going to break the country down into republican vs democrat and rural vs urban, it should be pointed out that there is a higher income level as well as a higher education level in the urban areas.
Surely that should have been factored into Professor Olson’s observations.
Because the way it is now, it is an attempt to make the rural republicans seem superior to the urban democrats.
well I see your point but a college or other advance degree does not mean that you actually have intelligence just that you can take a test. The other thing to remember is that without regard to demographics is that there are children born everyday to be streetsweepers and nothing you do is going to change that just look to the failure of NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND to demonstrate that.
just plain rural folks probaly have a better handle on how and are harder working to get where they want to be. There is a different kind of viewpoint born of that.
Mike,
As an officer, are you surprised by this strong anti-police sentiment that has risen on the internet since the BART shooting?
Do you really believe all those people are voicing these sentiments because they have done illegal things and been arrested for them in the past?
And do you really believe if it wasn’t for the video that Mehserle would have resigned?
This is not the first video that has emerged that has shown a clear abuse of authority, although it is the first to show a murder. And yes, it is a murder when you shoot somebody in the back who is unarmed and being restrained by your colleague.
That shooting scares the hell out of me because I was in that same position when I got arrested for taking photos of cops down in Miami.
I wasn’t fighting yet they threatened to tase me. And they also bashed my head into the pavement, even after I was arrested.
And even after I was handcuffed, one cop twisted my hand backwards until I screamed out in pain.
I am not a criminal. And I was never a physical threat to them. I was carrying two huge cameras so my concern was I didn’t want to break them.
And if they wanted to arrest me, all they had to do was tell me to place my hands behind my back. I would have done just that because the last thing I want to do is get into a physical altercation with five cops.
But they lost their temper so they made sure they were going to hurt me while handcuffing me.
And although it pisses me off, I look at that video and I count my lucky stars that I did not get shot and killed.
If it wasn’t for that video, it would have been just another “he reached for my weapon so I had shoot him” justification.
And that could have been me except there would have been no video.
And although I might be a stubborn sonofabitch, I am not a criminal. So it pisses me off that I was treated like one because even they knew I wasn’t a criminal.
It was never a question of probable cause that I was up to no good. It was very clear that I was doing my job as a journalist.
But those officers figured they would teach me a lesson. What took a couple of hours out of their shift ended up leaving nine misdemeanors on my permanent record, which is why I decided to fight it even though I was a freelancer at the time and had no giant newspaper backing me up.
And two years later, I am still fighting a resisting arrest without violence conviction. I am thousands of dollars in debt. My health has been greatly affected by this. Not to mention my professional reputation.
But I’m lucky because I did not get killed.
And you know what’s sad is that many people like me who are not criminals actually fear the police more than we fear criminals.
Because we know criminals might get caught and serve time but we know that unless you have a video, the officer will always get away with his crimes.
And I am not a cop hater. I covered law enforcement for many years as a newspaper reporter, and I’ve had many friends who were officers, all the way up to the assistant chief in Phoenix a few years back.
And since my arrest, many officers have written to me or told me in person that the officers who arrested me were completely out of line.
But even then, if I’m out photographing and I see cops, I get tense and it shouldn’t be that way.
Chuck,
I think one problem in your analysis is that you keep talking about two Americas; those simple, good-hearted rural folks and that sinister, urban crowd.
That was Sarah Palin’s MO and look where it got her. Nowhere.
The truth is, we are one country. Some might be rural and some might be urban, but there are plenty of liberals in rural America and there are plenty of conservatives in urban America.
Some people prefer the city and some the country. I personally prefer the city but I can understand how some people prefer the country.
I think it’s a mistake to judge a person’s moral values by where they prefer to live.
Hi Mike,
Thanks for the response. I am a life member to NRA. In the past, I used to shoot alot. I own many firearms from revolvers, automatics, shotguns, semi-automatic rifles, and bolt-action rifles. I even used to reload my own ammunition. Now, I don’t have the time or money to pursue this hobby anymore, because I am a proud father.
Most lethal police gunshots occur at around the 6 to 8 foot range. Once a perp enters this range with a cop his life expectancy diminishes exponentially. If you don’t believe this statistic, I can try to locate a link for you if you like. In the example you gave, you didn’t specify a range. I would imagine that in this scenario you have several cops behind a crude barrier of some sort trying to shoot this perp at some distance say less than 20 feet right? Hell, I don’t know. I do know that cops are trained to double-tap a perp as close to the heart as possible, and they do not shoot to wound. That would only bring on lawsuits. What I don’t understand is how these cops couldn’t make a lethal shot with the first couple of rounds?
Chuck wrote,
“well I see your point but a college or other advance degree does not mean that you actually have intelligence just that you can take a test. ”
Come on Chuck! Education is *THE* answer. We all know it. Once you play the bullshit game and get that college degree, it opens many doors of opportunity that otherwise would not be available. Answer this one for me? Where do most crimes and riots occur? Low income and low educated neighborhoods right?
“Individual LEO may behave poorly but that does not relieve your of your responsibility to be respectful. They are NOT reponsible to deescalate your (anyone’s)behavior.”
I agree that people should treat *GOOD* cops with respect. However, alot of them don’t, and I don’t believe that they deserve a death sentence because of it.
You are wrong, cops are expected to de-escalate a situation, because they have sworn to protect and uphold the law.
Two socks, once they have you isolated there is no value to deescalating you because the more you rant and rave the deeper you dig your own hole.
Also in my tears of working with both the higher and middle educated folks I have found many times over that the educated degreed people are more of aburden from the aspect that they just don’t get it. Many times I have found that I had to explain to someone why they as the degreed person did not get promoted because they cannot perform as well as the person with a high school education.
Carlos, I don’t judge anyone by where they live I am speaking from my experience of having lived in both enviroments, I do prfer the rural to the urban. If you like the urban then please live there as it leaves more room for me where I live. (currently population density is 1.2 persons per square mile), how close does your neighbor’s house sit to yours? The perfect place where I prefer to live is when you walk out to the mailbox and your neighbor is close enough to wave to but not close enough to have to talk unless you walk closer to them. Everyone on my street owns between 5 and 40 acres. Mine is 5 acres of birch and spruce and my house sits back 380 ft from the road obscured by trees.
And by all means we are all happy to have Sarah back up here, she has more class than anyone I have seen in a long time, what people down in the lower 48 don’t get is that we love our life up here and we can’t think of a better place to live. No state tax, no city tax, and no sales tax in most all of Alaska, and best yet we all (every man woman and child get a check every year as our part of all the unspent tax revenue taken in by the state every single year. $3,269.00 last year. Just think if you had a family of 6 that’s $19,269.00 for the family last year. Sure beats paying the state every year. Our lawmakers truly have looked to their responsibility to the citizenry, this money cannot be spent by the legislature and does indeed take a vote of the people to change any of the terms. People up here have been getting these annual check since the 1970’s and as the pricipal grows so do the dividend checks (it known as the Alaska Permanent fund Dividend). I am not sure of the amount but the funds value is in the 10’s of billions of dollars, the only way for the legislature to end it is to get us to vote on it and then they have to divide up the money among all the citizens it cannot be used for any goverment spending. but I digress…
One more thing, if you shoot to wound then there are two stories to be told, if you point a gun at me you are going to die because my story is the only one that will be told. Makes everything nice and tidy. We had a case up here awhile ago where a church had been burglerized several times and the minister installed an alarm that rang at his house, it rang one night and he called the state troopers and left his home drove to the church, entered and found two adult males (in thier 20’s) in the church. He told them to stand still and they turned to run at which time they both got shot dead as they ran (in the back). He stood trial and was found not guilty as the actors were found to have no expectation of saftey in the commision of a crime. A clearer message could not have been sent to the bad guys if you choose to steal be prepared to pay the ultimate price for your actions.
not to mention the it cleanses the gene pool.
I did find it finally the current amount of the fund is $28,350,700,000.00 billion dollars for a total in 2008 of 610,768 citizens of the state.
So everybody get’s a government check, eh? It’s a good thing socialism hasn’t worked its way up there yet. Wait a minute.
Wanna hear about my neighbors? They’re close enough where I can steal their wi-fi. Not that I have to because I have regular cable internet but on those times I want to use my laptop as well as my desktop, I just fire it up and there will be somebody’s wireless account, which gives me internet access.
I have neighbors on top of me, below me, next to me on both sides and across the hall from me. I hardly know them, rarely see them, sometimes hear them and occasionally make small talk with them.
When I step out of my building, I have a Cuban restaurant next door that is open until 3 a.m. I also have a Winn Dixie across the street, I would prefer Publix, but I can still buy groceries without stepping into my car.
I have a bunch of other restaurants within walking distance as well, including an all-night Greek joint that makes the best steak subs and garlic rolls.
I can take a bus directly from the front of my building to downtown Miami, but I drive so am within a short driving distance of the airport, downtown and the beaches.
I can fly out of this country at an hour’s notice if I had to.
That is what I like. I used to live in rural New Mexico and I had to drive to another state to catch a plane. That can get old.
Two socks since you are an member of the NRA you should enjoy this;
If guns kill people
then
pencils miss spel words,
cars make drivers drunk,
spoons made Rosie O’Donnal fat.
“”"”Do you really believe all those people are voicing these sentiments because they have done illegal things and been arrested for them in the past?”"”"”"
If you are a cop this is a dangerous thought to have. This is like saying that the people who complain are criminals.
How could a cop respect some else’s view if they already have one to give them?
How can a cop be impartial if they arrive on a scene and arrest the first person to have decent because they thing that they must have been arrested before?
Then they treat the person like a criminal and not a citizen.
>>>He told them to stand still and they turned to run at which time they both got shot dead as they ran (in the back). He stood trial and was found not guilty as the actors were found to have no expectation of saftey in the commision of a crime. A clearer message could not have been sent to the bad guys if you choose to steal be prepared to pay the ultimate price for your actions.<<<
The preacher was white definitely. No black preacher could have accomplished this. If you say he is not then i would ask you to prove it with actual data and a pic.
By the way there is 4 Americas:
Liberal whites America
Conservative whites America
Black & Latinos America
Asian America
Black & Latinos America
is where laws are disregarded and policies are changed to make things more difficult. Its where you ant be respected for your skill or have the most difficult time getting the door to use your skill………………
Asian America
this is where people think that you are mathematically and scientifically skilled. This where people put you under scrutiny and make things happen slower because they believe you are not aggressive. They believe that you have been living in some overly oppressive country and you are the way you are because you are not use to freedom………….
Liberal whites America
Majority in the metropolitan areas in america or medium sized cities. This where the term cool ass white-boy comes from. College educated with a 50k plus job out of college. Environmentalist and believer in fairness for all. Tolerance for different lifestyles and wants to be seen as a savior of an average joe. Some rich some middle class………
Conservative whites America
This in its not so extreme to extreme form is a separatist group of people who believe that america is for rich white people. Its the party of lies and cover ups. Eric Cantour claiming he isn’t gay when it is painfully obvious he is. Bernie Madelnoff types who know that the law will never really apply to him. They are the greedy and also the most terrified Americans there are. These people are dangerous. Unlike the moderate or center right republican.
IT SHOULD BE ONE AMERICA BUT THE REPUBLICANS REFUSE THIS NOTION AS EVERYTHING BUT POSITIVE.
Chuck,
I like that one. I think you will like this one:
FACTS TO PONDER:
(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is
700,000.
(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians
per year are
120,000.
(C) Accidental deaths per physician
is
0.171.
Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of
Health & Human Services.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now think about this:
Guns:
(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S.
is
80,000,000
(YES, that’s 80 Million)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
(B) The number of accidental gun deaths
per year, all age groups,
is
1,500.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
(C) The number of accidental deaths
per gun owner
is
.000188.
Statistics courtesy of FBI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So, statistically, doctors are approximately
9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Remember, ‘Guns don’t kill people, doctors do..’
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN,
BUT
ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Please alert your friends
to this alarming threat.
We must ban doctors
before this gets completely out of hand!!!!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Out of concern for the public at large,
I have withheld the statistics on
lawyers
for fear the shock would cause
people to panic and seek medical attention
THERE ARE MORE DEATHS BY GUN IN AMERICA THAN ANY OTHER 3 COUNTRIES COMBINED.
Accidental, suicide, and homicide deaths by firearm
Total accidental deaths per year (all causes), U.S….96,000
Motor vehicle accidental deaths per year…43,000
Fatal firearms accidents per year…1,100
(The firearms accidents figure is an all-time low, even though the U.S. population is at an all-time high, and gun ownership is at an all-time high.)
Fatal firearms accidents age 0-5…17
Fatal firearms accidents age 5-14…121
Fatal firearms accidents age 15-24…401
Fraction of all Emergency Room visits that involve firearms accidents…0.2%
[Centers for Disease Control, all figures]
Accidents of all kinds (not just firearms) constitute the fifth leading cause of death in the United States, but the other four leading causes combined account for 16 times as many deaths as accidents. Accidents constitute a relatively small but easily prevented cause of death.
Suicides by firearm, per year…18.000
Murders by firearm, per year…14,000
[Centers for Disease Control, both figures]
======================
Germany – 381
France – 255
Canada – 165
United Kingdom – 68
Australia – 65
Japan – 39
United States – 11,127
Germany – 381
France – 255
Canada – 165
THIS DOESNT INCLUDE ACCIDENTS.
United Kingdom – 68
Australia – 65
Japan – 39
United States – 11,127
but it still takes a person to pull the trigger, write the Rx etc….
Jeff R,
Did you ever stop to think that gun violence is the result of the people and not the guns? America has more deaths by guns because of our culture. China doesn’t have Jay Z singing about how tight it is to blow a cap in someone’s ass or 50 Cent bragging about being shot 9 times. “Cool” people in America also happen to be the stupidest. Hell, half of them are criminals and glamorize that fact. Kids don’t have a chance. The “role models” today are the real problem, not guns. If Nelly came out with songs about how fun it is to stab to people with chopsticks, you bet your ass there’d be a rash of