Photography is Not a Crime

344 responses so far ↓

• 1 the bulldog // Jan 9, 2009 at 1:03 AM

  they need to lynch the cop in the town square! if not, i hope they torch the place!

• 2 Dale // Jan 9, 2009 at 1:16 AM

  Looking at that clip, I was wondering why people didn’t react. There were enough people on that train to easily overpower those guards. And the other “detainees” – would I just sit there after seeing my buddy get shot like that?

  But it’s the pre-9/11 effect at work. Before 9/11 people just didn’t think something like that was possible, and it took a while to figure out a reaction. By the time it got to Flight 93, people knew what to do.

  Same thing here. If something like that happens again with that many people around, the guards won’t get away.

• 3 Carlos Miller // Jan 9, 2009 at 1:28 AM

  I think it was just shock. You could hear the reaction of the crowd. They expected him to get roughed up, but I don’t think they expected the cop to pull out a gun and kill him because there really wasn’t a struggle.

  Not even enough to warrant the cop to use a taser gun on him.

• 4 Matt // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:00 AM

  Dale, they were not security guards in the traditional sense. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Police

• 5 Ben // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:17 AM

  Wow… after that I have to completely retract my earlier comments about it being nearly impossible to mistake a Taser for a Sig — the shock on Officer Mehserle’s face speaks volumes here. It really looks like he meant to point some form of pistol-gripped weapon (taser or firearm) and wasn’t fumbling with it when it went off.

  The clarity of this version cuts through much of the uncertainty — his motions were deliberate. He cleanly drew his pistol, pointed it at the suspect’s back, and pulled the trigger. Whether he expected it to be a Taser or not is immaterial in my mind from this point forward. God help that former cop because he’s going to have a tough time finding anyone else who will.

• 6 some guy // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:29 AM

  Yeah, that’s a murder. The victim was face down on the ground, and if I’m on this officer’s jury, I’ll vote to send him to the gas chamber.

• 7 Jim March // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:51 AM

  Yeah, this looks to me like “fatal taser confusion”. BART is going to pay millions on this one. No idea what will happen to the cop.

  First obvious point is that the cop who shot looks at his gun in shock.

  Second: the shooting victim was absolutely handcuffed.

  Negligent homicide. Not 1st degree murder, but still a crime.

• 8 Justin // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:58 AM

  Murder.

• 9 Joe the Gardener // Jan 9, 2009 at 4:02 AM

  He did draw his weapon deliberately.

  But look at his reaction when it fires. He freezes, looks up at his cop buddy, back down to the ground, back up to his cop buddy. Later, his hands at his face.

  This was an unintentional weapons discharge. A crime, a mistake that ended another man’s life. But this was not deliberate murder.

• 10 Ed // Jan 9, 2009 at 4:32 AM

  This so strange. I’m not from USA, so for me these sentences are just too absurd to be true:

  “Mehserle has not been arrested or arraigned for the shooting by any of the several law enforcement agencies now investigating the case.”

  “Federal law enforcement were also reported to be looking into whether Mr. Grant’s civil rights were violated in his killing.”

  You know, crime is scary but this is much scarier.

• 11 Steve Dekorte // Jan 9, 2009 at 4:32 AM

  Based on the the way the cop who made the shot grabbed his head afterward, I’d guess the story about him confusing his handgun for his taser was correct and that it was involuntary manslaughter.

• 12 Ed // Jan 9, 2009 at 5:02 AM

  “This was an unintentional weapons discharge. A crime, a mistake that ended another man’s life. But this was not deliberate murder.”

  NO

  You pull your gun; aim at a person who is face down, handcuffed; pull the trigger (it’s not as easy as on toy guns you know).

  There can not be any talk of anything unintentional.

• 13 That Guy // Jan 9, 2009 at 5:05 AM

  Yet another reason that Cops shouldn’t have TASERS. They use them too often and in unwarranted circumstances. And then you get things like this!

  Sick, just Sick. What has this country become?

  “Wow… after that I have to completely retract my earlier comments about it being nearly impossible to mistake a Taser for a Sig — the shock on Officer Mehserle’s face speaks volumes here. It really looks like he meant to point some form of pistol-gripped weapon (taser or firearm) and wasn’t fumbling with it when it went off.”

• 14 jujube // Jan 9, 2009 at 5:14 AM

  When will the sheople wake up in this country?

• 15 Wanye // Jan 9, 2009 at 5:24 AM

  If you pause the video two seconds after the shooting, you can C-L-E-A-R-L-Y see that Grant’s hands are tied (or handcuffed) behind his back.

• 16 rick // Jan 9, 2009 at 5:31 AM

  @Dale

  It’s generally NOT a good idea for a crowd to rush the police like that. I counted at least 3 cops, each of which have 17 round magazines in their guns and more on their belts… if an angry mob rushes them, you bet your ass they can use lethal force in retaliation.

  So please, record their actions and let the world know, but don’t use more violence against them; don’t give them a reason to hurt you.

• 17 Michael // Jan 9, 2009 at 5:33 AM

  Burn and Loot. Kill any Pig. Fuck That. Avenge Oscar Grant

• 18 Thetruth // Jan 9, 2009 at 6:34 AM

  On what day do you dumb niggers learn you don’t get shot if you are polite to the police?

  Never- because being a dumb nigger means you are never polite.

  You make your own bed niggers, sleep in it bitches.

• 19 Mario // Jan 9, 2009 at 7:11 AM

  Yeah, I saw the look of shock too. This dimwit may have thought he was grabbing his taser. So what?! This is a cold blooded killing that appears totally unjustified. That’s murder.

  We’ll see what actually happens to the cop. Even if — and it’s a big IF — he thought he had his taser in hand, it just goes to show that there are cops out there who are egregiously reckless and not too bright.

  Perhaps they shouldn’t have guns in the first place.

• 20 John Jones // Jan 9, 2009 at 7:27 AM

  Wow, I hope the rioting continues, I only wish the people would stop directing their anger at buildings and cars and instead turn the anger towards the cops themselves who deserve it!

  Jess
  http://www.web-privacy.pro.tc

• 21 some guy2 // Jan 9, 2009 at 8:03 AM

  I see:
  1) shot fired
  2) officer looks at other officer with mouth open *WTF?*
  3) he looks at the gun.
  4) his palm strikes his head in a “God THAT was stupid” gesture.

• 22 Greg // Jan 9, 2009 at 8:23 AM

  I have watched the video many times and came to the conclusion that it was an accident. Before you start I am black so it’s not some kinda of white sympathy thing. Apparently he was using a glock which has a trigger safety that is really easy to fumble and shoot. That being said he should have never pulled the gun out in the first place. Personally I don’t think anyone should get the gas chamber considering the disproportionate amount of minorities(read black) that are given death sentences. That cop will get a slap on the wrist and it will be called an accident.

• 23 d // Jan 9, 2009 at 8:36 AM

  nice ninja videoing. . .I love it.

  nice the train stayed there long enough and pulled away with the recorded evidence before anyone could come and ‘secure’ the scene.

  as far as the cops. wow. brutal. and so very wrong.

• 24 Kevin // Jan 9, 2009 at 8:48 AM

  If you kill someone in the process of committing a crime, it is first degree murder regardless. The cop had ZERO cause to draw his taser, so drawing it and firing it at the man was a crime. This is murder plain and simple

• 25 Art // Jan 9, 2009 at 8:51 AM

  This is a highly trained individual. If this involved anybody, say average joe, i would agree with negligent homicide. But we’re talking about a highly trained Law enforcement official. Accidents are not an accepetable excuse!!

• 26 John // Jan 9, 2009 at 9:14 AM

  $20 says that Thetruth is black.

  White people are just as offended by this as you are Truth. If someone doesn’t say what you want them to I guess you can go to an internet site an post hateful things anonymously as a make believe “whitey”.

  Wondering if the IP address for Thetruth is the same as the racist postings from Spokker yesterday.

• 27 leo // Jan 9, 2009 at 9:47 AM

  DALE from first post,

  What do you mean by the time it got to flight 93? Are you saying from the first hijacked plane on 9/11 to flight 93 people understood what to do? Did they play a recording or have a news feed in the plane that planes hit the towers? PLEASE! you are too funny, that plane was complete BS to ease the pain on the american people, so that noone dares think that the planes were not really hijacked. FLight 93 had no idea the other planes hit the towers, not to mention the in flight calls made? YOU CANNOT CALL FROM THE AIRPLANE! IT IS GOING TOO FAST! I TRIED BEFORE! AND AFTER! You are one of the loons who also believes a plane hit the pentagon? You are hilarious my friend, oh sorry you are not my friend.

  And the reason noone did anything here is because they are police and they most likely would have tased anyone that interfered, and the cops would have been right because that is what they are drilled with their whole experience with the police from academy to patrolling.

  And again back to the 9/11 thing, and if pre 9/11 people did not fight back but during 9/11 only the last plane faught back.. that doesnt make sense, no reasonable sense. The Flight 93 was a decoy to show that americans are strong and they will not sit idle while their plane is guided into a fiery inferno, except the other planes had no trouble with that mission, it was saudis that did it, and they were funded by the US government, because at this day and age something really terrible had to happen for us to go to WAR, as civilized as a nation we are, we are savages in our own way, if we are pricked with a needle, we want an entire bus load to suffer even more than we did. ITs called gluttony and we are all guilty of it, dont agree? The nazis that were not in the army were also nazis, even though they did not kill with weapons, they financed Hitlers campaign with tax money and allowing him to speak at rallys. Same thing in america, as sick and twisted as it is, truth hurts. But since the truth would create riots ont he streets the government will not tell us, it would destroy our belief in ourselves and in what America stands for. I guess its a small price to pay for living in the #1 place on earth.

  Think about the other 9/11 planes… hijackers with box cutters? PLEASE! There were more non hijackers on each plane that hijackers, and atleast double, and your telling me only 1 plane fought back? That is laughable, and people accepting what Bush told the country on live tv is also laughable, but then almost every news report in the usa is fabricated for the progression of the direction that the leadership wants the country to go in, and im not talking about the crap that presidents tell us, im talking about what they actually do, and not the lies they tell regarding what they want you to think they do, and did in the past.

  Conspiracy? So is saying anything negative about these police officers, on a different scale, but nonetheless the truth hurts, these cops should all either go to jail for the rest of their lives or be put to death, when you have the duty and the power, especially to PROTECT and SERVE, the inhabitants of this country you should not misuse that enormous trust, and anyone covering it up and anyone that stands next to the perpetrator with the same power and does nothing is guilty of the same crime, the punishment should be 8 fold worse for any police/fire/health/government officials and employees when they commit even the smallest of offenses. Lead by example, not by lies.

  Most wont read this post because it goes against their view of the country, and their belief, some will not read it because they are guilty of crimes that they do not have to answer for. Bush is guilty of the same, he was responsible for the deaths of thousands of americans, but like Hitler… his own people would never have prosecuted him, because the majority either agrees/follows/or fears him.

  Now im going to go poop.

• 28 Carlos Miller // Jan 9, 2009 at 10:00 AM

  John,

  thetruth’s IP address is from Virginia.

  Spokker’s IP address is from California.

  Two different people.

• 29 ed from ga // Jan 9, 2009 at 10:59 AM

  @Greg

  A Glock doesn’t have a safety.

  @all

  You do a great job of not feeding the troll. Thanks for that.

• 30 Carlos Miller // Jan 9, 2009 at 11:02 AM

  Ed from Ga,

  It was a Sig Sauer.

  http://carlosmiller.com/2009/01/07/could-a-taser-gun-be-so-easily-confused-for-a-firearm/

  I agree about ignoring the troll.

• 31 Tom // Jan 9, 2009 at 11:22 AM

  DALE:
  Since the beginning of the firearm, one only needs to shoot one in the air to have everyone stop, guffaw, shut up, and sit tight. Blantantly shooting someone in the back? Yeah, that’ll get people stunned enough to no know what to do, especially if it’s your friend or loved one and you realize he/she is about to die. The detained guy with the hat realized, “Whoa, this guy just got shot inches away from me.” woke up and got up.

  Yes, there was a moment (seconds after the shooting) that the crowd could have rushed the cops but 1. More innocent people would have been killed and 2. both phones that gathered evidence may have been confiscated and/or lost/destroyed in the havoc.

  KEVIN:
  Very good point with “If you kill someone in the process of committing a crime, it is first degree murder regardless. The cop had ZERO cause to draw his taser, so drawing it and firing it at the man was a crime.”

• 32 Tom // Jan 9, 2009 at 11:28 AM

  God, this higher quality version is incredible. The major news networks need this NOW!

  Yes, those Bart train doors closed at just the right moment? Does anyone know if Bart doors are automatic or what? People were definitely ready to rush off that train. I can’t imagine the frustration, anger, and sadness in those train cars as they pulled away.

• 33 Carlos Miller // Jan 9, 2009 at 11:35 AM

  Tom,

  You can not only hear but you can fear the anger in that train car as the door closes.

  The realization that they had just witnessed a murder is overtaking them at that precise moment.

  And I do wonder about the car doors shutting because under normal circumstances, those doors would have been closed long before and the train would have kept moving.

  But in that case, the train was stalled until after the gun went off. And suddenly, the trains came to life.

• 34 Colleen // Jan 9, 2009 at 12:00 PM

  murder.

• 35 Frank // Jan 9, 2009 at 12:23 PM

  Did the officer panic and draw his taser to speed up the cuffing, move the arrestees away from the hostile crowd? Was his taser behind the holster or was it on his left side?
  Police use tasers so they don’t have to use batons, which can cause severe injuries to bones. They had to use batons in the ’80′s because they were no longer allowed to use carotid sleeper holds that render the arrestee unconscious for about 10-15 seconds. These worked very well for officers and combative/resisting persons in that there was, in the vast majority of cases, no injury caused afterward. It is quick, effective and doesn’t injure. Tasers don’t always work. Like the carotid sleeper (when applied too long), taser deaths occur rarely. But if lawsuits prevent the use of tasers, we;re right back to batons and crushing bone injuries. All this can be prevented if arrestees follow the officers directions carefully, officers get good and frequent training, and officers face disciplinary action and prosecution when they violate the law or department regulations.

• 36 Jerry // Jan 9, 2009 at 12:53 PM

  I agree that EVERYONE in that station should have overpowered those cops! Then do a citixens arrest right there! WHEN THE PEOPLE DECIDE TO LEAD, THE LEADERS WILL BE FORCED TO FOLLOW!!!

• 37 steve // Jan 9, 2009 at 12:58 PM

  To me it looks like the officer was reaching for his taser rather than his pistol…and in think it was his taser pulled the trigger… This would all be a mute point if the people would comply with the officer’s request… This is a dangerous neighborhood and many other people have been shoot or had harm done to them..The police go in to these situation, wondering if an “innocent bystander” doesn’t come up behind then and shoot them.. This of course doesn’t excuse the fact that the officer made a mistake but put your self in their shoes…

• 38 global74 // Jan 9, 2009 at 1:05 PM

  it was murder plain and simple. All the excuses that some of you folks are making “negligent homicide”, meant to grab his taser, are pretty silly when you take into account

  1. This police officer is paid a salary and trained by the city to protect the people.
  2. The victim is subdued, on the ground and is not threat to the officer or others
  3. The grip of a taser or mace feels completely different from a GUN

  This cop killed a man. If not for the video, alot of yall would be making excuses giving the cop the benefit of the doubt. “well we dont know exactly what happened”
  “the victim could have made suspicious movements”
  Please stop making excuses for this atrocity. If we dont hold this cop accountable for this crime, there will be many others

• 39 Tim // Jan 9, 2009 at 1:11 PM

  Murder in the 1st Degree – it is time to dismantle our corrupt police state and the economic machine which supports it.

• 40 Will // Jan 9, 2009 at 1:19 PM

  That’s a wanton execution.

• 41 Kurt // Jan 9, 2009 at 1:19 PM

  WTF is up with that couple right by the black dude? They’re fucking oblivious to what the fuck is going on around them. I hate Americans like them.

• 42 Brazen Bull (Google it) // Jan 9, 2009 at 1:39 PM

  Wow.

  Just Wow.
  I lived in the Bay Area for several years. The train goes under the Bay and comes up on the Oakland side. Anyone who reads this who has been on that train will understand the following.
  What happened was a series of events that just lead to this horrendous killing. Read on VanityFair.com the account of the head on collision in brazil between two jets, one thing stuck with me in that article.
  It was as if the Devil had his hand in things.
  When you ride the BART from San Fran to Oakland it occurs to you–in the black tunnel beneath the Bay–that you are in one of the most earthquake prone parts of the world. What if the Big One hits–what kind of death would this be like, trapped in a tube–
  –also, and I say this with all respect to my brothers, the train contains many Oakland brothers, people most of you reading this would cross the other side of the street to avoid.
  It was New years and even on normal days you have to stand on the BART, so imagine being stuffed into the cars, everyone shouting, the smell of fear and booze and unwashed ass–everyone was tense.
  And that is why the fight happened.
  Earlier that night the BART cops were tense, there had been two weapons confiscated previously. Now try to enter the mind of Mehserle, baby born a few days ago, scared out of his mind, way out of his element, the people he deals with on a daily basis treat him as a rent a cop, spit at his feat, display No Fear when he draws his weapon.
  The life of an inner city cop, compounded with the view that he is a Train Guard.
  He just wants to go home and see his kid. So do all the cops, they don’t know who or what will come out of that tunnel, all they know is that there is a fight (maybe gang related) their already have been two weapons found, it was 2am and they all were ready for the worse.
  The Devil shows his hand.
  If you read enough reports, from SFgate you will find an interesting fact, there were not enough Tasers that night, cops going off shift would pass them to the next shift but not all of the cops had Tasers. Maybe Mehserle worked a double–he was a new father, maybe he was trying to make some extra money–maybe he was used to carrying a taser, we don’t know anything yet. . .
  It is clear to me from his reaction after the shot that he thought he was using a taser. Maybe you think this was wrong–maybe it was–maybe it would caused a riot.
  But you are not a cop.
  Even if you are a cop, few of you are cops in inner cities.
  A pistol gripped taser can feel a lot like a gun, weather it be a Sig Sauer or a Glock which weigh a lot less then you may think.
  I could have been Grant. I am biracial which means in this country I am black. I grew up in Harbor City, next to Lomita and Wllmington and a stone’s throw from Compton. In 1992 I wa watching the riots on T.V when a dark cloud caused a shadow in my room, out the window a wharehouse on 256st was burned. I drove nice car and was pulled over 19 times by the LAPD. I hated the pigs, they searched my car, threw my shit on the street made me sit on the curb. They asked how a “kid like me” could afford a car like mine. I lived with my Grandparents and had a guilty Mom.
  But I digress..
  I hated the cops, hated the way they treated me. A cop had me on the curb and when he didn’t find anything he told me that my people were lucky, lucky we were brought here to work, we could have ended up back in Africa as lion food.
  I cried myself to sleep that night. Pathetic. Yes. But when all your power is taken, when you feel like the cum of the earth, self pity is a safe harbor.
  But my cousin is now LAPD.
  A cousin who I grew up with like a brother when I moved to LA and with my Grandparents. And some of the things he has told, things that I will always keep between us has changed my point of view. I can’t help to think what if it had been him who pulled that trigger.
  If an officer pulled a gun on you, or ordered you out of the car, you would comply. But in the inner city, if a cop pulls a gun on you, maybe that was the fourth person who did that that afternoon and the cop was less likely to shoot than Le-Lo on 35st. Listen to the audio, you can feel the tenor of the crowd, the animosity, the sense that something. . .something was going to happen.
  That is why there is so much video.
  Bit nobody, from the suspects, to the crowd, to
  Mehserle expected to watch someone get shot.
  But that night, in Fruitville, the Devil was in the details.

• 43 Ari // Jan 9, 2009 at 1:42 PM

  Honestly, that cop deserves to have his badge and gun taken and burned. Then for the family to file a wrongful death suite. What I saw isn’t a legal crime, it’s a crime of humanity to be sure but not a legal crime of this society. It’s a damn shame. Why that policeman did not have his weapon holstered is beyond me. You never point a barrel at anything unless you’re willing to put a friggin hole in it. This scene was avoidable. It’s that officer’s fault. Pure, plain and simple. His burden/punishment is that he has to live with what HE did for the rest of his life.

• 44 Jeff // Jan 9, 2009 at 1:45 PM

  Ok the bald cop was kneeling on the victims head while the other cop shot him in the back. I have held both a pistol and a taser…it would be pretty hard to mistake the two…especially cause you keep them on opposite sides of your hip. The shooter should serve 25 yrs…the senior officer in charge should also be up on charges for not handeling the situation in a humane manner. Even after the guys is shot…they then drag him around like it was ok.

• 45 Chris // Jan 9, 2009 at 1:52 PM

  the MOST fucked up part is not that shooting, it’s the way the officer quit the force and has avoided all questioning.

  pistol, taser, accident or murder, he was very much in the wrong, and justice needs to be done.

  i’m not surprised there’s rioting, i just hope next time there’s a situation like this, all the people on the train don’t charge the arresting officers.

  the public outnumber the police, vastly.

• 46 Mark // Jan 9, 2009 at 2:05 PM

  Kurt? Just because they weren’t spluttering impotently and kicking at the door that makes them oblivious? How can you even be certain they’re American? What a completely arbitrary and unnecessary provocation (perhaps you’re the American). All people react to shock in different ways.

• 47 Jim // Jan 9, 2009 at 2:06 PM

  All you who think the cops should’ve been rushed are stupid and would probably be behind the crowd egging them on. Cowards. And leo, you’re a fucking idiot.

• 48 patrick // Jan 9, 2009 at 2:08 PM

  @Brazen Bull

  You’re an idiot. You’re gonna sit there and try to justify this? I dont care how bad of a day the cops had before this, it does not justify mistaking your weapon for another weapon or SHOOTING A FUCKING HUMAN BEING!!!

  It is the Police’s job to be careful. To server and PROTECT.

  Im disgusted.

• 49 Jim // Jan 9, 2009 at 2:12 PM

  Sorry for the family, but he would still be alive had he not been rowdy with the rest of his friends.

• 50 leo // Jan 9, 2009 at 2:16 PM

  that cop deserves life in prison, i dont care if it was an accident, you do not give guns to people and not severely penalize them when they “screw up” or make a “mistake” either way it took a life, the cop should have been cuffed on the spot by his own peers and taken to criminal court.

  THIS INCIDENT, NOT ACCIDENT, SHOWS HOW THE “SYSTEM” TAKES CARE OF ISSUES WITHIN ITSELF, IT JUST DOES NOT DO ANYTHING ABOUT ANYTHING, IF SOMETHING IS DONE IT WILL SET A PRECEDENT THAT NOONE WANTS TO BE APPLIED TO THEMSELVES, THUS ALL CASES THAT INVOLVE POLICE/FIRE/MEDICAL/GOVERNMENTAL PERSONNEL AND OFFICIALS THAT COMMIT CRIMES AGAINST CIVILIANS OR THEIR PEERS ARE LEFT UN PUNISHED, AND IF PUNISHED THEN VERY LIGHTLY. BEING FIRED FROM YOUR JOB IS NOT A PUNISHMENT FOR THIS OFFICER, nor is quitting. He deserves to be in jail for the rest of his life, or even put to death to send a message to past, present, and future generations. THAT NOTHING SHOULD AND WILL BE TOLERATED BESIDES FOLLOWING THE LAW, AND THIS OFFICER, AS SO MANY BEFORE HIM… be it tasering/beating/physically harming a suspect/civilian/citizen..etc … whatever it may be.. they should be put to a higher standard than someone that does not work for the government. The lax in punishment creates a safe haven for abuse on such a high level that truly only egotistical and people who want to control others and get a personal HIGH from it are given a badge and the ability to do whatever they want, ill kill that fucker for spitting in my face, and i know my fellow officers will cover it up.. whats the worst that will happen? I lose my badge? AWWW HOW SAD FOR ME! THat is actually what they think, i know this, i have many cop friends in several states who feel this way, and KNOW THAT THEY WOULD BE PROTECTED BY THEIR PEERS, in the department and above. ITS SICK… and here the world gets a glimpse of how it all goes down, even with VIDEO EVIDENCE, nothing serious happened and will happen to that murderer.

  way to uphold the law

• 51 leo // Jan 9, 2009 at 2:19 PM

  jim,

  so rowdy people are allowed to be shot? ever heard of the law?

  THERE IS NO CASE IN WHICH AN OFFICER CAN SHOOT A MAN IN THE BACK or a woman IN THE SITUATION SHOWN BY THE VIDEO!

  You jim, are a moron, and people like you are the ones who abuse their power as police officers. IM THE LAW AND IF THEY DONT LISTEN TO ME, OR ARE DISRESPECTFUL I WILL TEACH THEM A LESSON. Those people do not deserve to have a badge, now a weapon in their hands.

  I hope it is you next incident we hear about jimmy.

• 52 Mike // Jan 9, 2009 at 2:28 PM

  I am a Phoenix Police Officer. I have been on the force for about 15 years now.

  People like these BART police officers disgust me.

  There is a distance difference in the weight and feeling from the tazer compared to a gun.

  They designed them this way.

  Some cops are murders, some obey the law.

• 53 Carlos Miller // Jan 9, 2009 at 2:44 PM

  Hey Mike,

  I used to cover the Phoenix Police Department when I was a reporter at the Arizona Republic a few years ago.

  Met a lot of good guys there. A few not so good.

  Thanks for your comment.

• 54 jrfunkenstein // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:04 PM

  ‘Looking at that clip, I was wondering why people didn’t react. There were enough people on that train to easily overpower those guards. And the other “detainees” – would I just sit there after seeing my buddy get shot like that?’

  You’ve got to be kidding; you just witness someone get murdered by a trigger happy gun toting poorly trained glorified security guard, and you wonder why the horrified people on the train didn’t rush the 4 armed thugs that commit the murder?

  I suppose you didn’t notice how quickly events unfolded, or how fast the train doors shut after the shooting.

  Anyone else who thinks they would have been a hero have probably never seen the police shoot an unarmed and handcuffed kid in the back in front of hundreds of witnesses.

• 55 Jeff // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:04 PM

  Fuck Leo, Fuck Mark, Fuck Kurt Fuck Steve and fuck anyone else who takes the trigger happy peice of shit rookie ass cops side. He quit the force because he’s a bitch and cant face what HE DID. People have the nerve to try to back him up…..would you back him up if it was a young girl who was shot?….NOPE!! Cops F-N suck all over the world…and they’re only getting worse….soon cops are gonna have to shoot first and ask questions later..cause people will be aiming at them. (DEXTER)

• 56 Jeff // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:06 PM

  Ooops sorry Leo…you’re cool….I’m Out!!

• 57 Dan // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:10 PM

  that is Evil.

  that IS Evil.

• 58 Matt Dudley // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:16 PM

  Someone should take justice into their own hands and find that man and kill him! America is going down the crapper so you might as well join in the chaos….

• 59 jrfunkenstein // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:20 PM

  ‘Sorry for the family, but he would still be alive had he not been rowdy with the rest of his friends.’

  That’s a pretty good reason to be publicly executed for being a minority.

  NONE of those kids were resisting a damn thing, and Grant was shot in the back while he was face down and handcuffed with another BART cop kneeling on his neck.

  How can anyone justify his even being tasered in that situation, much less being murdered by someone poorly trained to handle a situation, but is given lethal force to do so?

  The rioting is appalling but understandable when this video is being censored by the MSM.

  Disgusting.

• 60 Does it matter? // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:23 PM

  A trained cop can easily see the difference between a tazer with a yellow tip and a completely black glock. There was no threat, the guy was handcuffed, thus no adrenaline to impair his judgement. To me this was intentional.. the slap on the head seems to me to be more of a delayed reaction when he realized the amount of onlookers and the stupidity of his move. Not an oh no moment.. I’m not an American, so I really don’t care… (other than that my thoughts go out to the guy’s [who was shot] family and friends) – it just angers me to see that people permit this sort of behavior from the people who are put in charge to protect them.

  It is not the first time cops in the States go ballistic; I was on holiday in LA a while back where six cops jumped a black guy who was not resisting arrest.. one of the cops beat the guy’s head to the ground so badly that there was a blood pool where his head had been. I saw it after they had dragged him away.

• 61 Carlos Miller // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:32 PM

  If people would have rushed the cops, as some people suggest, there would have been more people dead. Several more.

  The best response was what has been done. To record the actions and distribute the videos worldwide to show the world what took place.

  The truth is the ultimate weapon.

• 62 BuddhaBro // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:36 PM

  All I see here are angry letters, trying to pass the blame onto someone else with a lot of finger pointing. Each one of us should look ourselves in the mirror and ask “Who The Fuck Am I”. We are all to blame! Society is not about an individual, we are all inter connected. And until people begin to understand that; then it will be a long time before things will begin to change. We don’t know what was going on in any those peoples lives leading up to that moment and nor will we ever. If everyone took responsibility for their own thoughts and actions would we even need cops? Take a good look at yourself and how you perceive and treat others. Then maybe you will understand why there is so much fear and hate in our lives. Hate only generates more hate. Take responsibility for you own life for a change! Then, maybe you can begin to help others instead being the first one to criticize their actions.

• 63 leo // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:42 PM

  Mike:

  you are god amongst men.

  Keep up the good work, i hope you practice what you preach, i hope there are more like you.

  But do you agree this cop should be jailed for life? Worse? Or what sort of punishment? And what will that punishment mean for future and current officers who commit such crimes?

• 64 leo // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:45 PM

  Carlos,

  but the truth means nothing in the physical world. If i know the truth, but the perpetrator walks free… is that really a difference than noone even knowing that the incident happened?

  Its like people ignoring that what hit the pentagon was not a plane. They feel they know the truth, but what is the truth? The truth in this situation might be that the cop has done that many times except this time he did not have the benefit of saying the guy had a gun pointed at him, and having his peers back him up, with a gun with the serial filed off being found on the scene.

  The truth is nothing without consequence.

• 65 jrfunkenstein // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:52 PM

  ‘Take responsibility for you own life for a change! Then, maybe you can begin to help others instead being the first one to criticize their actions.’

  That’s precisely what most rational posters are asking for; for the City of Oakland, the BART authorities and that officer, to take responsibility for his actions.

  Maybe you haven’t noticed, but that isn’t happening.

  Watch the video again and tell me there’s ANY justification for that kid getting shot with ANY kind of firearm.

• 66 jrfunkenstein // Jan 9, 2009 at 3:59 PM

  The very end of the video is the most telling; even after realizing Grant has been shot at point blank range, the officers continue to search him without consideration for the fact that he’s now bleeding to death, going so far as to drag him around by his still handcuffed arms.

  How can anyone be defending this?

• 67 BuddhaBro // Jan 9, 2009 at 4:00 PM

  This was a life changing experience for all directly or indirectly involved. Just look at the notes on this website and the impact that this event has made. A young man lost his life, a mother lost her son, and now another young man must live with this memory for the rest of his and his families’ life. We are all so quick to blame and find fault and seek retribution. Why can’t we change and try to make a difference instead of adding to the horror. We all have choices in the way we live our lives and we all need to take responsibility for our choices. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO?

• 68 jnm // Jan 9, 2009 at 4:09 PM

  I cannot agree with Thetruth more.

  Surely most of you have heard of the “don’t tase me bro” incident?

  Why are police so jumpy, so quick to draw? Because there ARE violent subjects who endanger the lives of the protectors. Now, I’m not saying all police are good; there are surely many corrupt ones. But if you are stopped or detained by the police, you had better shut your ass up and cooperate, politely, quietly, and efficiently. If that guy DID have a weapon on him, he SHOULD have mentioned it. Notice the guy to the left? His hands up in the air, no quick or threatening movements. What else are they supposed to think if you struggle and disobey?

  This disparity between the enforcers and those being policed has not grown overnight. Raging against “pigs” and rioting against…who the hell knows, will never, EVER help. In the end, we all want that happy ending, to go home to our brothers, mothers, and children.

  Police are given weapons to protect the innocent. Granted, that word has been stretched further than a two-bit whore during Mardi Gras. The officer that discharged his weapon will be devastated for life. And that’s why he should be back on the job. It was an accident. Was it right? No. Was it good? Hell no. But it did happen. Jail for the man won’t do any good. It won’t do him good, or the city good. Several hunded hours of community service would. You can bet he’d learn from that, too. And be that much better because of it.

• 69 Carlos Miller // Jan 9, 2009 at 4:19 PM

  JNM,

  Community hours? That’s what I got for photographing cops against their wishes. Community hours.

  And you say this guy deserves the same for shooting and killing an unarmed man who was already handcuffed?

  And only because he is a cop?

• 70 bill // Jan 9, 2009 at 4:38 PM

  I’m sorry, I’m all for rioting when the issue is police brutality (living in Athens, where a boy was shot dead by police a month ago for no reason whatsoever) but “rush the police?” I hope us adults can agree that this is probably the stupidest thing you can do to an armed, bordering-on-retardation, panic-stricken police officer.

  There is no need for that in terms of serving justice. The footage will suffice, since you need it as evidence.

  I repeat: rushing the police = bad idea!!!!

• 71 elZaphod // Jan 9, 2009 at 4:39 PM

  Taser confusion my ass. Cops use those things as casually as handcuffs now. If you are so scared of every person you interact with on the beat, you’re a pussy that shouldn’t be a cop. He has no excuse and I hope the jury finds the same.

  Of course there’s always the possibility Officer Friendly failed to take his anti-retarded pills that morning.

• 72 Brazen Bull // Jan 9, 2009 at 4:39 PM

  I think some might not understand what I was trying to say. I do not think the officer intended to kill Oscar, I think he mistook his Sig for a tazer. The Sig is a light firearm. But some reports say it is 3 times as heavy as the tazer that the BART cops use.
  If you are driving and see a person in the middle of the street and slam on the pedal and run them over you are a murderer, this is tantamount to what some of you think happened.
  If you are driving and swat a bee from your leg and kill a bicyclist you may be guilty of manslaughter…maybe not. This is a stance that many defenders of whatever cops do might take.
  This is not my stance.
  Mehserle is like the drunk who downs 9 beers in an hour with a few shots, hops in his car and wipes out a family.
  He is guilty of killing someone due to his abhorrent lack of judgment and possible borderline level of retardation. He should serve time, not only for what he did but as a lesson to all officers that lack of training or intelligence, or iron nerves is no excuse for shooting someone in the back . . .and then hand cuffing him.
  Remember folks, he was not handcuffed until after he was shot which points to this cop just being a retard, a retard with the power to kill, but a retard nonetheless.

• 73 No Justice will be served! )-: // Jan 9, 2009 at 4:58 PM

  Sorry to the fam…. First of all whats so sad about this situation is that its happening more and more EVERYDAY! and plz if any of ya’ll know any cop/lawenforcer that has been prosectuted for THEIR crime.. let me know. guarentee if he had not quit he would get suspension with pay like the rest, a vacation. while families are torn apart by these crimes committed to them by the “LAW” I guess when we see colored officers shooting unarmed white people then we’ll c justice, hell they’ll probably get death penatly. Its very clear the cops didnt give a damn he was shot, after the fact.. video shows right then they were throwing him around on the floor after the shooting. all that was missing was a burning cross. And to THE TRUTH. how bout u go across the train tracks and tell the crowd over there ur point of view… oh thats right your a COWARD, thats right. and to all those who live in candyland wake the fuck up, cops r crook’d jus like the lawyers and judges that set them free. stop making excuses for these bitches that r clearly killing humans… whether black, yellow, red, white, whatever, ur still in denial after witnessing it with ur own two eyes…. wow

• 74 someone // Jan 9, 2009 at 5:01 PM

  Tasers are typically placed on the opposite side of the belt than the firearm. this is so the LEO can draw the taser with his strong hand (the hand he shoots with). the LEO belt is designed for muscle memory meaning that if you are in a heated situation you can easily select the appropriate “Use of force” weapon without having to search or fumble around. the common x26 taser has a vastly different weight and feel than a standard firearm be it sig sauer or other. The taser requires you to draw the weapon in a specific way and flip a switch to turn it on, you cant simply draw and fire, the firearm has no switch, it has a trigger pull of several pounds along with a secure holster that requires specific and deliberate movements to draw the weapon out. And if it does have a mechanical safety device the officer would have been trained on out to remove the safety as he was drawing the weapon so that when he archived his “sight picture” he would be ready to fire. there too many actions involve for a slip up. depending on the training of BART officers its hard to believe that any officer that completed the mandatory training could mistake the firearm for a taser and discharge it in the movements in the video.

• 75 Annie // Jan 9, 2009 at 5:09 PM

  After Mehserle shoots him, and rubs his head looking “confused and shocked”;

  It doesn’t look to me like Mehserle regretted shooting Grant, just that he regretted doing so with such a large audience.

  & EVEN IF, he meant to draw his taser. He was still trying to deliberately harm someone that was already detained and incapable of going anywhere.

  this was a product of the cops rage in the situation. He was trying to “get back” at Grant for resisting.

  It’s IMMORAL, and this monster should rot in prison.

• 76 Mg // Jan 9, 2009 at 5:14 PM

  Just to get the story straight:
  1. Kids were detained for something right? The issue was overlooked. Was it a fight, or was it police harassment that got them benched to begin with? I’m not siding with anybody, but the kids shouldn’t have been dicking around to begin with to receive a knee in the back, pinned to floor.

  2. Whether the cop shot the kid by mistake or by purpose, HE WILL BE TRIED FOR A CRIME. We can trust the justice system to follow through on that. Whether he will be sentenced to death or carry out imprisonment for life is a mute point, HE IS DONE.

  My question to community is, what are you rioting/fighting for now? Are you asking for the police to turn over guns? What resolution is the community seeking? Once this ex-cop gets tried, and sentenced, what’s next?

  I feel the community has a lot of tension and hate against against the authorities who provide “protection” but the message is unclear about what is being sought. The crime is not racially motivated but the news media will drop hints to insinuate a racial response.

  JNM asked a good question. What if the shooter wasn’t a cop? Will the same incident cause the same response? Probably not. What if the cop was a black officer? Will riots have taken place? Would the outcome differ and in what way?

  This entire incident is very unfortunate and has invoked a huge emotional response. We, the people, need to be logical about our response. We can just blindly fire off hateful responses without adequate reason. If we did, we’re not better that those rioting in the streets trying to prove point by setting fires.

• 77 Jhamal White // Jan 9, 2009 at 6:03 PM

  Oscar was no angel by a long shot. He was on the path of a career criminal. Don’t you think this was his destiny and had it coming?

• 78 Psynaut // Jan 9, 2009 at 6:09 PM

  The cop made a mistake. Unfortunately for him, he is going to pay the price for all the abuse of power perpetrated on freedom in America in the last 8-years.

  Even though I can see that this is a mistake and can feel sorry for the guy and his family, who are probably suffering terribly from this mistake, my pent up outrage and anger over the rampant ratcheting up of police brutality and abuse of power under the Bush administration makes another part of me want to see him and all like him lynched.

• 79 Ponton // Jan 9, 2009 at 6:12 PM

  JNM,
  Its true that in this day and age people should be aware that even being seen as resisting arrest can get you shot. Especially if you ain’t white and ain’t that always been the case?

  However, simply because this is the reality of the situation in America today, does not mean it is right, good, moral, acceptable, constitutional, lawful or tolerable to any individual or society itself. this is not a liberal airy fairy statement or a republican militias and guns are the only way statement. It is not tolerable because as social animals it damages our sense of belonging in the group. Anytime this happens it is bad news.

  I think you are perhaps living in a world of “should be” rather than a world of “what is.”

  Lets look at what is. People are so outraged and afraid of their own police force that they take to the streets and mob up. People mob up for a reason. High emotion, a sense of alienation, disrespect and fear of a certain aspect of society (in this case law enforcement) or the perception that critical societal controls or contracts have been broken or violated.

  Add this fear and high emotion to the burden of stress we all carry these days, especially if we live in poor neighborhoods. Add the fact that it happened to a person of a historically persecuted race– its not suprising at all these riots happened.

  People are social animals and we must operate in groups. Nowadays we dont have regular groups anymore, we have super groups or uber groups. Groups where there are very many different and sometimes opposing viewpoints and goals. Also, we dont just belong to one group anymore (Me Big Thog’s clan) but we might belong to a lot of different groups, all who hold some or most or not much of our loyalty.
  The person’s uber-group is the main group of people who they identify as belonging to. This sense of belonging could be any or all of these: belonging in one’s family, one’s group of friends, to the neighborhood, a highschool sports team, the city, as an american, or even as a law-abiding citizen or as a christian.

  When people percieve that an aspect (in this case law enforcement) of society has violated a social contract (dont murder the public) that is critical for the functioning of said society, people abandon their front-of-the-brain, well thought loyalties to the uber-group.
  (And I dont mean people decide to riot in an analytical, front-of-the-brain way. ITs the sub-concsious, angry, paranoid lizard-brain kind of way)

  When a shocking break in the percieved societal contract happens, people who riot are unconsiously replacing the somewhat etheral sense of belonging in the uber-group with a more real, tangible, and ultimately more fulfilling belonging to a “tribe.” (usally whatever mob of people they happen to be around at the time. )

  These things are not thought out, not planned, they are momentary de-volutions in our tenuous grip on our sense of belonging to such a massive, complicated uber-group like America.

  Basically riots happen because your “lizard brain” would *much much much* prefer you to be following the biggest, loudest, fightin’est male, in a group of 150 people or less, and smashing anything thats too threatening, too shiny or too confusing. A severe enough shock (seeing a man get killed, feelings of intense persecution) and the lizard brain takes over.

  The thing is, what is going to happen to people if the guy who started this shitstorm… mistake, accident, murder or no– gets his job back or a slap on the wrist?
  I dont mean just the rioters but everyone in the city and all of America. How would they see that action in context with the social contracts we all live under?

  A MAN DIED.

  mistake or not, there is nothing more dangerous than assuming that the social contract between the police force and the public can be stretched and twisted forever. The riots mean there is already a large public perception that the social contract is broken. Reconciliation must be made, or the social contract will fracture.
  Re-instituting the man or slapping him on the wrist will only confirm the negative perception further causing more and more of these incidents.

  Thats how I see it.
  (not american or black)

• 80 Prentiss // Jan 9, 2009 at 6:54 PM

  Action 1 – stand up
  Action 2 – pull out gun
  Action 3 – aim gun
  Action 4 – pull trigger
  Action 5 – look around in shame
  Conclusion – MURDER!!!!!!!
  Recommendation – DEATH PENALTY

• 81 its just bad // Jan 9, 2009 at 7:00 PM

  glock does have a safty, just not much of one. it is a 2 stage trigger with what is called a “lawyers trigger” (meaning it takes a stiff 3 to 4 lb of pressure to set one off) no different than the smith and wesson sigma series. these guns dont fire themselves. it is the sole responsibility of the gun handler to control the weapon!! in any case it is sad when anyone looses their life.

• 82 Cops wife // Jan 9, 2009 at 7:00 PM

  I don’t think people have any right to post videos of this stuff on the internet. I don’t see that its anyones business except the officers about what went on. As a proud police wife I know for a fact that it was more than likely not on purpose that he grabbed the gun he was more than likely reaching for his taser. You people are sick that sat and videoed this you should really get a life and that is really sick that you posted it on line. Oh and another thing I get so sick of hearing people sit and bash cops and say nothing but crap about them, but then turn around and when they are in trouble cops are the first people they call so think about it next time that you talk bad about a cop think about who is going to be there when you need help.

• 83 Carlos Miller // Jan 9, 2009 at 7:05 PM

  Sorry about the comments being held like this but I have cached this page because it’s the only way to keep it from crashing the server.

• 84 Carlos Miller // Jan 9, 2009 at 7:31 PM

  But I am back at my computer now, so I can refresh the page every few minutes. It’s just that comments are not instantly appearing as they normally do.

  This post has generated an extremely high amount of traffic and I am using WP Super Cache, which has proven to be very effective in keeping the server from crashing although there were some very shaky moments today.

• 85 Ken // Jan 9, 2009 at 7:45 PM

  Cops wife:

  You are TRULY DELUSIONAL! In your world, all policemen are like Andy Taylor and Barney Fife! YES, we want the police there when we need them…that IS their duty! It is also their duty to protect ALL PERSONS and that includes innocent bystanders AS WELL AS the person(s) they are taking into custody. Wearing a badge and carrying a gun is a SACRED TRUST that society has bestowed on these individuals. When that trust is broken, civilized society starts to fall apart.

  Mike (policeman from Phoenix):

  It’s sad that your profession has to be tainted by individuals like Mehserle. There just has got to be a way of training police officers better and weeding out the bad apples. Clearly, this guy Mehserle should never have been given a gun. I just wonder what his record is/was like. Any thoughts about a 27 year old with only 2 years on the force? I believe he’s from semi-rural Napa, but don’t know much more about the guy.

• 86 Chrismpls // Jan 9, 2009 at 7:54 PM

  That cop didnt even have a tazer on him. Their wasn’t enough of them(tazer) to go around to all the
  law enforcement that was working that night.
  So the hole BS of him mistaking his gun for a tazer.
  I was a law enforcement student till 2 years ago. Then I found that cops are corrupt and the biggest gang out there.
  Carry cameras if they are on the clock you can tape them. They are employees of the people. If the government doesnt work for its citizens we have the right to start anew.

• 87 Ivan J // Jan 9, 2009 at 8:08 PM

  In my view, individuals such as Johannes Mehserle don’t necessarily plot malevolently against citizens such as this victim. I have analysed this mindset for years and I am convinced that Mehserle and many of his peers across the country honestly do not regard shooting a handcuffed minority in the back as a crime. In following many stories such as this throughout the years, I have observed a marked inability in working and middle-class white America to distinguish right from wrong. Law enforcement being a microcosm of that realm.

• 88 KDP // Jan 9, 2009 at 8:10 PM

  In other video shot from the other side, you can see Grant lift his open hands. There are reports that he was pleading not to be tazed because he had a 4 yr. old daughter.

  In looking at the video when he appears to be struggling after being pushed to the ground, it seems more like the police were shifting him looking for weapons.

  I believe that the day Mehserle resigned whether than comply with the investigation, he should then have lost all rights and privileges accorded him as a police officer. That means he pays for his own defence, he is arrested on homicide charges (which could be reduced or plea bargained), and he faces the legal consequences for his actions.

  BART is a special police agency here that has no external oversight. This is not the first time that BART police have shot and killed an unarmed person without justifiable cause. It is past time for BART to be accountable for the actions of their police force.

  I understand that being a police officer is a stressful and difficult job. Even more so, when you work for a force that is seen as rent-a-cops. BART police go through the same academy training as the officers of other Bay Area agencies. There is no excuse or reason for Mehserle to have drawn a weapon at all. I only hope Alameda County DA does bring criminal charges against him, and that Ammiato and Yee’s legislation to require the creation of an external oversight commission for BART police.

• 89 WHY???? // Jan 9, 2009 at 8:14 PM

  That new video shows an execution, and they move the body not even in the clearest of mind to be a first responder, The Cops are in the wrong, excessive force for sure, 2nd degree murder. And if I was a Cop in Bart or Oakland I would Retire today, not at all the finest and not at all out to protect and serve the people of this town, the investigation and news coverage has been appalling.

  This will happen again if this is not made a Death Sentence example of

• 90 Carrie // Jan 9, 2009 at 8:15 PM

  He’ll be charged with manslaughter 2. Watch.

• 91 MOOG // Jan 9, 2009 at 8:45 PM

  TO COPS WIFE–I am a 54 year old white male…I am an outstanding citizen of the US…I pay my taxes…I make good money…I am not some low-life responding to your comment. I just want you to know this before I comment about you.
  People like you need to leave the this country because you do not belong here for you to make the statement you did pisses me off to no end. Where do you get off saying that when a cop kills someone it is not the publics business…you sick piece of crap. Wether it was an accident or not IT IS OUR BUSINESS YOU PIECE OF SHIT.

• 92 BuddhaBro // Jan 9, 2009 at 8:59 PM

  Is everyone so hungry for blood? Does more blood need to be spilled before they feel justice is done? How many other man and woman died on New Years? In any case I don’t believe anyone deserves to die. Accidents do happen, and people do kill other people. When are we going say enough is enough and realize that violence is not the answer. That we of a civilized society need to become more compassionate. That there are more civilized and peaceful means to resolving issues. Everyone is so quick to judge; so easy to find blame in someone else, while overlooking their own faults. Nobody is perfect; and as humans we are inherently imperfect. So you can continue to perpetuate the problem with anger and hate; or you can make a change and do something different. It’s Your Choice!

• 93 JMHSRV // Jan 9, 2009 at 9:14 PM

  Absolutely tragic is what it is. I met Oscar a few times at the store he wars a butcher at. He stood out to me a really kind person. Friendly and glad to be where he was in life. I didnt know him personally, but I did know who he was..

  This is just very, very sad.

• 94 electrasteph // Jan 9, 2009 at 9:24 PM

  From what I’ve read, the incident was caused by a fight on the train. The question, though, was whether the men detained, including Oscar, were actually participants in the fight. At least one account says that Oscar was trying to break up the fight and got caught up with others.

  Clearly from all the different videos, people on the train thought the young men weren’t being treated fairly by the police from the beginning – you can hear people objecting to what they were lining the guys up against the wall.

  And the fact that at least 9 people had cameras and cell phones out recording the incident tells you that most people thought something wrong was going on and needed to be documented.

• 95 Brenda Lewis // Jan 9, 2009 at 9:25 PM

  This young man was handcuffed, with his hands behind his back, face down, and that cop had his full weight and knee in his back. I rather doubt that the young man could breath.

  Have somebody do that to you and see if reflexes don’t take over and you struggle to breath.

  I hate crime and violence, but I have gotten to the point where I fear the police as much as I fear crime. We live in the Houston, TX area and there is a Civil Federal trial going on here where four cops rushed a mentally ill man who wasn’t threatening anyone and they shot him fourteen times, most of them in the back. How can they possibly think that is self-defense on the part of the cops? Anytime in this area when one has more than one policeman show up at a scene, then one of them is going to over react and all hell breaks loose and usually someone dies that shouldn’t have.

  I am an upper middle class grandmother with a Master’s Degree and I feel that way, so don’t say I am a minority or something. Here, they seem to kill indiscriminately, white, brown, black, male, female, young and old. Fourteen times in the back and they have the audacity to claim self-defense.

• 96 sonnie // Jan 9, 2009 at 9:55 PM

  Looks to me like he looked at his partner to see how they are going to cover this one up and put his hands up to his face to say “oh sh** ” Is he actually carrying a taser and a gun?

• 97 flapper // Jan 9, 2009 at 9:59 PM

  i have watched this video two or three times and i dont care what anyone says, whether or not the officer mistakes his gun for his stun gun he commited murder. are not officers of the law sworn to serve and protect? and wasnt the victim subdued? mistake or not the officer killed him……plain and simple.

• 98 Anon // Jan 9, 2009 at 10:06 PM

  I had been bothered by this whole story for a while and didn’t understand what really happened. After watching this, it brings tears to my eyes. He was NOT struggling at the time he was shot. His face was down, hands behind his back. It appears the officer was not struggling with him, but reaches and grabs the gun, then shoots. I now know why people are ANGRY! It’s ridiculous! He should not have died.

• 99 Carlos Miller // Jan 9, 2009 at 10:31 PM

  Here is a video clip that I slowed down that reveals more details.

  http://carlosmiller.com/2009/01/09/slow-motion-video-of-bart-shooting-video-shows-more-details/

• 100 david makalaster // Jan 9, 2009 at 10:44 PM

  After reading all these posts I wasn’t sure if I was going to comment or not. Everything I feel has been said in one way or another. Until I read Cops Wife’s post. Her first sentence “I don’t think people have any right to post videos of this stuff on the internet.” made me very angry. Her attitude is absurd. Her self righteousness sickens me. “This is no one’s business except the police officers” ? Really? Enough about that stupid whore, I think what a lot of cops fail to realize is that they are not the law, they are there to uphold the law. That’s a very big difference that gets blinded by their egos. We have to overlook this flaw to some degree because it goes hand in hand with the type of people that apply for these jobs. But when someone looses their life, it can not be overlooked. I live in a city where the police shoot black men for sport. I would be very surprised if he gets convicted of any crime at all. Keep in mind that not only do the investigators have to charge him but the DA has to agree to send it to the grand jury. Then it’s up to the grand jury to indict him. Then a trial.

• 101 jason // Jan 9, 2009 at 11:08 PM

  for the record i live in Toronto, Canada and every time i hear of a cop shooting and killing someone, and it happens more often then u think. the siu allways later says it was a clean shoot or a justifiable homicide. Funny thing is though i know the day it happens they will allways be cleared of wrong doing. Because when cops investigate cops the public loses

• 102 Andrew // Jan 10, 2009 at 12:05 AM

  That was not a shooting. It was an execution.

• 103 Aaron Thorne // Jan 10, 2009 at 12:39 AM

  This just doesn’t make any sense. If there had been some comment made to genuinely require the use of such force, something to make the officers believe there was a mortal danger to themselves or others, I believe there would have been more than one shot.

  If there was some medium threat that warranted such force… one would think they would have shot him in the shoulder, arm, leg, etc. NOT in the BACK.

  Given that it appears the cop took his time and was very purposeful and only fired a single shot to the back, I don’t see how this could have been a “good shoot” and since he resigned before IA could talk to him… definitely doesn’t bode well for him.

  Watching the clip I have to stretch my imagination to determine a scenario where all of this comes together and justifies these actions.

  Notice there doesn’t seem to be much surprise though by any of the other officers… did they hear/see something which warranted the action or did they just hear the officer say something to give them warning?

  I’d love to see any footage from outside the train or hear the audio from the police radios.

• 104 Makaeff // Jan 10, 2009 at 1:20 AM

  jrfunkenstein @ 66

  Two very good posts! Thanks you!
  No doubt about it, the cops dragged Oscar by his cuffed arms AFTER they shot and killed him. This cop needs a long prison sentence, if he doesn’t get one it is a monumental injustice. That is an understatement!!
  This action, the search and dragging of this fatally injured man, will be the last straw for these chumps in court. Those cops suck!!

  Stay cool, Carlos is right. No need to kill the cops, just record their crimes!

• 105 m.dot // Jan 10, 2009 at 1:59 AM

  Carlos.

  Thank you.

  Im from Oakland. I live in Brookyln.
  I blogged about Oscar. The piece should run on Racilicious in the next few days.

  This video made me cry.

  It made me feel like nothing.

• 106 genewitch // Jan 10, 2009 at 2:08 AM

  carlos, i know this is buried, but someone asked about this:

  I lived next door to a retired sheriff. He was in his 60s, and his wife had left him cause of alcoholism. One night, when i was still in junior high, she evidently stopped by to see him at his request. He shot her with a shotgun at near point blank range.

  The police surrounded his house, arrested him (naked, no less), and took him away.

  The next day he was back home, and back drinking. I don’t even remember if there were a court date. He ended up dying a year or so later, but not after wrecking his car several times, etc.

  Cops don’t get in trouble like the rest of us.

  (ps – neighbors saw him earlier that day at the bank and he said that his wife was coming over that night for whatever reason. He knew. He also had huge security gates and doors and alarm systems, all of which she got through before he shot her in the vestibule. at the very least it was manslaughter… at the worst it was 1st degree murder.)

• 107 FFS // Jan 10, 2009 at 2:21 AM

  After reading some of these response I can only you some of you kneejerkers never end up on a jury.

• 108 Regina // Jan 10, 2009 at 4:45 AM

  To me this is clearly murder!!!!

  Had this been a minority individual shooting someone he would have already been beaten by the police and through in jail, whether it was accidental or not!!!!

  As far as a taser goes; the police get repeated hours of training with guns and tasers so that they know the difference between both and when to use them and not!!!!

  The gun is worn on the right side of your holster and your taser is worn on your left side of your holster unless you shoot with your left hand then its vice-versa, no mistake here!

  Cops are trained not to mistake the gun or the taser…

  This was no accident. If the officer never meant to fire his gun then he should have never pull out his gun!!!

  This officer had no right to shoot Grant in the back accidentally or other wise!!!

  In this country you are guarantied a trail, presumed innocent, before you are found guilty or innocent.

  Even if this shooting of Grant was an accident why hasn’t this officer been arrested?
  Even if this shooting was an accident why hasn’t this officer been detailed?

  This is not an accident this is murder in the 1st degree. This officer took someone’s life with out cause or due process!!!

  I feel like Psynaut does; I am beyond words because of the, “police brutality and abuse of power under the Bush administration makes another part of me want to see him and all like him lynched.” Accident or no accident.

  Just tired of police abuse and misconduct under the color of authority…

• 109 SHIRLEY // Jan 10, 2009 at 7:45 AM

  In England the cops are the same, trigger happy. Thank God they are not all armed or there will be a lot more people shot when they could be restrained using a taser.

  They are also above the law and are never prosecuted or lose their jobs. In fact they don’t lose their jobs at all now if they have a criminal record.

  Don’t it make you feel safe walking the streets!

• 110 Honeydog // Jan 10, 2009 at 8:03 AM

  This was an execution, no two ways about it.

  That said, do not make the mistake of blaming this on the Bush Administration. This type of stuff has been going on for a lot longer than Bush has been in office. We just have better means to catch the stuff on tape and prove the cops are full of crap now.

• 111 from Germany // Jan 10, 2009 at 8:29 AM

  im not a US citizen and therfore not familiar with local police-procedures after a person shooting another person. im not a judge or lawyer either, so i dont want to specutlate about whether it was murder or manslaughter or whatever and how it has to be “punished”. nor about “glocks” or “sig sauers” or their safetys and similarities to taserguns . not even about if it had been by purpous or an enormously stupid moron dumb failure.

  WHAT RIDDLES ME IS:

  how can someone (whoever) possibly shoot a human-beeing in broad view of the public and not bee detained or held for questioning until the whole case is at court and he is eather found guilty or not?

  9 days done and the first person to ask about what happened (= the shooter) has´nt even been interviewed by any law enforcing official…

  i do understand that people are rightfully angry… and the “more stupid ones” among them are going violent and calling for vengeance and chaos and blood (ending up in more innocent persons getting harmed or hurt)… on the other hand: historically this seems to be the only way to put enough preassure on the “established club of powerful institutions/individuals” to force them out their tracks… i dont know… this world somehow just sucks

  please excuse my bad English/spelling

• 112 Justinobut // Jan 10, 2009 at 8:52 AM

  Dale, I agree with you can never surely say what you will do when you find yourself in situations like this. I want to live in a world where those cops would have been over-powered and torn apart by the onlookers immediately.

• 113 John // Jan 10, 2009 at 8:52 AM

  After reading the comments of Cops Wife and Barbara (on another post thread) I am now convinced that there is one person worse that a crooked cop.

  A crooked cop’s wife.

• 114 FloridaBoi // Jan 10, 2009 at 9:11 AM

  Shit, I’m more afaid of cops than drug dealers and gangs! One day these assholes might pull me over for a tag light and just shoot the fck out of me because he’s having a bad day, and the sad thing is he might get away with it. all he has to say is “The subject was reaching for what looked like a gun”. He will go under investigation and all these fck’d up judges and his pussy cop buddies will make the shooting look justified. Its not just fck’d up cops, its the whole fck’n system! so FCK THE LAW! by the way I dont belive this one will get away with this stunt he pulled, there are way too many witnesses.

• 115 Carlos Miller // Jan 10, 2009 at 9:22 AM

  John,

  And the amazing part is that they appear to be two different people from two completely different locations.

• 116 Bob // Jan 10, 2009 at 9:58 AM

  Stay strong brotha…

• 117 Jocelyn // Jan 10, 2009 at 3:04 PM

  Even the worst comments on this site about Oscar Grant’s murder, are like a Sunday School lesson compared to some of the other blogs. Whites, especially trailer trash, still “salty” with rage about Obama’s win (the nerve of that uppity n***er!) have been having a field day with their “he deserved it” and “good riddance” comments. A generation ago such cowardly racists hid behind sheets, now thanks to modern technology they are able to hide behind computer keys.
  In the 70′s the phrase “The whole world is watching” demonstrated the power of visuals vs. cover-ups…and now today no one can deny what the countless number of cell phone videos have shown…a young man, with his hands raised in the universal sign of surrender was executed, face down, by somenone who was sworn to serve and protect.
  Several bloggers have commented that black-on-black crime is worse than police killings because it is more rampant. Any one on this site that is interested in really understanding black-on-black crime needs to read “Soul on Ice” by Eldridge Cleaver and “Makes Me Wanna Holler” by Nathan McCall. Cleaver, in “justifying” why he raped so many black girls states that he did so because he knew there would be no punishment, no outcry, because black girls were not valued. He said he thought about “crossing over”, that is raping white girls, but he knew that he would then have to suffer consequences. Similarly, McCall, in describing his own rage, frustration , and despair growing up as a black male, states that homicide by a black male against another black male is really suicide. He explains that since a black male (especially one living in poverty with no education or perceved positive options) hates himself so much after being reminded daily that he is “worthless, he does not value the life of someone who looks like him…and he knows there will be no consequences if he kills that black male, a mirror of himself. My parents grew up in the segregated South, and told us constantly about the unwritten code that blacks and whites well understood—”kill a black, it ain’t a crime; kill a white, and you gon’ do time…or git your neck stretched.” Each time a cop (black or white) kills or brutalizes a young man of color, it further devalues their lives…and continues the cycle of black on black crime. After all, they must be worthless right(?) if cops can kill a man the night before his wedding—Sean Bell—a man reaching for his wallet—Amadou Dialo—and now Oscar Grant,—and there are NO CONSEQUENCES for these crimes. No wonder little black children kept picking white dolls over black dolls as “the prettiest and the smartest” in Dr. Clark’s experiments in the 1950s and later in the 1980′s…Black life is not valued in this country, and other parts of the world (who imitate AmeriKKKan values). Until it is, if ever, there will be more murders by police AND black-on-black crime.

• 118 jon // Jan 10, 2009 at 3:16 PM

  I don’t know where the story of the officer confusing to use a taser instead of a gun came from. Has anyone even consider these questions or know the answers.

  Was the officer who shot Grant allowed to even carry a taser gun?

  Was the office who shot Grant on that video even carrying a taser gun?

  Aren’t taser guns usually a BRIGHT YELLOW or ORANGE COLOR? ( The Subway was well lit.)

  Don’t you need to turn on a taser gun? (Don’t you think the officer would have thought, hey maybe this is a real gun with bullets because it doesn’t have a switch to turn on so let me put it back in my holster and grab the taser gun instead.)

  Don’t guns have a safety mechanism where you have to adjust it in order for the gun to fire? (You would have thought this would have been a hugh RED FLAG in knowing this is not a taser gun)

  I think those are the real answers we need that will draw us to a conclusion of this case that we are all looking for.

  The officer is without a doubt guilty of some sort of crime whether it be murder, manslaughter or any other crime requiring a sentence for time in prison.

  On a financial note, if I was the attorney representing the Family, I would have filed a $100,000,000 lawsuit against the defendants in this case including the officer that shot Grant.

  Grant you will be resurrected…

• 119 Benny // Jan 10, 2009 at 8:25 PM

  It isn’t news that a majority of police officers shouldn’t be able to carry a weapon. damn shame. I hope these crooked cops get what’s coming to them.

• 120 webguy // Jan 10, 2009 at 10:45 PM

  if you look at 1:48 of the video, another “cop” walks by with a taser drawn….it’s bright yellow!!!! The killer held his weapon with 2 hands in front of him for 2 – 3 seconds before firing….. no way in hell you could mistake it for anything else… this goon was in thug mode and acted out his power trip fantasy to the unfortunate conclusion we see here…. another 17 year old kid killed with a taser yesterday…. old ladies tased…. I’m afraid the most feared enemy is now the police….

• 121 Eat // Jan 10, 2009 at 11:20 PM

  X

• 122 Moog // Jan 10, 2009 at 11:27 PM

  This guys web site keeps smamming me with e-mail even after unsubscribing…CARLOS THIS SUCKS…FIX IT!

• 123 Carlos Miller // Jan 10, 2009 at 11:32 PM

  My website?

• 124 Carlos Miller // Jan 11, 2009 at 12:58 AM

  Jocelyn,

  I live in Miami where black men kill each other on an almost regular basis. It is not just African-Americans, but it is also Haitian-Americans.

  It’s get to the point where every time you read a headline of someone getting killed, you automatically assume it’s in the black neighborhoods.

  I am Colombian-American, a native of Miami, and I have spent a lot of time in Miami’s black neighborhoods. I have many friends there. I’ve taken many photos there. I am not afraid to walk through those neighborhoods with my cameras.

  The people I know, the people I’ve met in those neighborhoods, the people who have invited me in their house are no different than the Latin people I grew up with.

  But there is a difference. They are killing each other. Not necessarily the people I know, but the people in their neighborhoods.

  And where does it stop?

  I’m glad you found my site not as racist as the other sites. I allow discussion, but when it gets to a certain intolerable point, I have deleted comments and banned people.

  But it really hasn’t happened that often.

  Here is something I wrote a few months ago about my experience in one of Miami’s black neighborhoods.

  http://www.magiccitymania.com/2008/05/07/liberty-city-lesson/

• 125 wheres the justice // Jan 11, 2009 at 5:35 AM

  after the shooting police took as many cameras vidio phones as the could . the news showed a officer with 4 paper bags full of them as evidince .bart police say there where no vidios of the incident recorded the next day, if the bart train doors hadent closed and those few vidios gotten away from the bart police they would have covered up the whole story

• 126 Larry // Jan 11, 2009 at 7:55 AM

  A “tazer” in Illinois even without the battery attached can be charged just like a firearm so… That would indicate it is a deadly weapon right? Why was a tazer needed? Are these other officers complicite?

• 127 The Truth // Jan 11, 2009 at 12:34 PM

  If you view it with an open mind you will see this:

  First guy getting cuffed for some reason. Man who ends up getting shot keeps trying to get onto his feet and the cop makes him sit back down.

  Shot man ends up getting cuffed for some reason and appears to be struggling with the cops.

  The cop stands up and draws down on him, pauses, and the other officer starts to move up and away from the cuffed man.

  Officers normally call out that they are going to use the taser to warn other officers to get back. This may explain the pause and why the other officer gets off the guy just before the shot.

  The officer is in full view of about 100 people who are witnesses and video taping him. The shot man is cuffed. Why a cop would decide to “execute” or “murder” a cuffed man with so many witnesses is beyond my comprehension.

  There was another officer there that had a yellow taser so I know they had them available.

  Immediately after the shooting the cop looked stunned and confused. It appears that he did not understand what just happened.

  Many departments require cops to carry the taser on their week side because the taser is identical in size and use as a firearm.

  This is not the first time an officer used his sidearm when he thought it was a taser.

  So it looks to me that the cop wanted to stop the guy from fighting them off with his legs and he decided to deploy the taser. Whether it was right or wrong to use.

  He points what he thinks was his taser, calls out he is going to use it, and fires one time.

  Manslaughter or murder? I think not.

• 128 dino // Jan 11, 2009 at 12:58 PM

  all you fucking idiots out there. a gun is heavy. a taser is not. and a gun isn’t yellow. and he held it infront of himself before firing.

• 129 roland // Jan 11, 2009 at 3:06 PM

  fuck the pigs!
  fight the police!

• 130 cop wife's husband // Jan 11, 2009 at 3:24 PM

  ok, i’ve read all the comments here, and i feel i should probably make comment on what was said to clarify. she was a little upset after reading some of the police bashing that goes on in here. yes, it is your business. no, I don’t mind being taped while I am doing my duty. it makes it much more difficult to concentrate on my job and protect myself and the public from *gasp* criminals.. how am i supposed to know whether the person i’m dealing with is gonna kill me? what is my so called ‘whore’ of a wife going to do now to feed my children? for every supposed excessive force video, there is a dash cam video or some other type of surveillance video showing a police officer being executed by the very people he is trying to protect.

  no, we don’t know what happened that day unless we were in person watching it. the video is very poor quality and for all we know he may or may not have been searched. i’m not saying that the officer was in the right. obviously he felt necessary that he should resign. much better than trying to cover the entire thing up imho. so before you call every cop you see crooked, or that we are just a large GANG (i really liked that one), take a second look and realize that we don’t all have a superiority complex, and we just want to keep our superiors happy and go home at the end of the shift.

  oh, and for those of you that are going to try and bash me because you don’t believe any of my comments are true, or that i’m just another gang member, think what you want. i hear much worse in person and ANGRY TYPING AND ALL CAPS DONT SCARE ME. i don’t troll around forums looking to feel better about myself. good evening gentlemen..

• 131 the bulldog // Jan 11, 2009 at 3:32 PM

  how bout this…lets go old testament…
  does the cop have a child?

• 132 Carlos Miller // Jan 11, 2009 at 3:45 PM

  Cop Wife’s Husband,

  As the guy who runs this site, I want to thank you for your comments.

  I am curious, however, about an officer’s Use of Force Doctrine.

  Isn’t there a series of steps an officer must go through before he pulls out his gun and shoots?

  Where would the use of a Taser gun fall within those steps?

  Some people have mentioned that Oscar Grant may have been resisting but you probably deal with more resistance on a daily basis than what was seen in that video.

• 133 Carlos Miller // Jan 11, 2009 at 3:53 PM

  The Truth,

  If the scenario played out as you said, how can it not be manslaughter?

• 134 Speaker to Wolves // Jan 11, 2009 at 4:03 PM

  It’s not murder if there is no intent to kill or if there is no malice aforethought or willful disregard for life. If the officer in question really did intend to draw his taser and not his service piece, then it can’t be murder.

  But it then follows that the fact that he intended to use a taser on someone already restrained means that his action grew out of a criminal disregard for the civil rights and the health and safety of the victim (who at that time could be considered in custody) which makes this a case of involuntary manslaughter (sometimes called criminally negligent homicide) for which he can and should be tried.

• 135 david makalaster // Jan 11, 2009 at 7:16 PM

  Cop’s wife’s husband.
  I whole-heartily disagreed with your wife’s comments and, because of the anonymity of the web, used unnecessarily insulting language to express my disagreement. My apologies to you and your wife.
  Can anyone please explain to me why there hasn’t been any updates in the investigation or even an official explanation offered? In my town, the use of deadly force got so bad that we swore in a public review board that get answers almost immediately. My father was a police officer for many years and I remember several stories of multiple officers having to get someone under control. Many officers getting bloody noses in the process. No one ever got shot or killed. I would think it would be difficult NOT to struggle when getting pushed to the ground with an officer sitting on your neck. Surely standard procedure would require more of a struggle than this to use a tazer or especially deadly force. Have the investigators set a date for a press conference or anything like that?

• 136 Ken // Jan 11, 2009 at 9:33 PM

  Speaker to Wolves:

  Actually, you’re not quite right. Malice aforethought would be necessary to prove Murder 1. Clearly, a willful disregard for life CAN be proved in this instance. The use of a firearm in this case is in and of itself enough to prove intent to kill.

  NO ONE is going to buy the, “I thought I had my taser in my hand, but it turned out to be my service revolver” excuse. It’s insulting to anyone and everyone’s intelligence.

  Murder 2 is a more likely scenario for Mehserle, although he MIGHT be able to plea to Manslaughter – and, again, he’s not going to get away with INVOLUNTARY Manslaughter.

  There are now 3 separate investigations into what happened, with the Attorney General (Jerry Brown) appointing a prosecutor to oversee the 3 investigations. Jerry Brown has said he doesn’t understand the delay in the process of the investigations and that he will launch his own investigation if things get stalled.

  This isn’t Rodney King on tape. This is Oscar Grant being SHOT IN THE BACK DEAD by a cop who snapped. If you look at the video, Mehserle doesn’t look at the gun (as in, “Gee, that ain’t my taser…”), he looks at the ground, then looks around and his body language says, “OMG! What the fuck did I just do?”

  Good luck with trying to convince a jury that Mehserle is NOT guilty of AT LEAST Murder 2. Mehserle’s best bet is to confess and try to plea to Manslaughter.

• 137 blessed to be alive // Jan 11, 2009 at 10:56 PM

  I would like to thank Jocelyn & BuddhaBro for their insight on this truly desturbing event in the lives of two men, and several dozen onlookers, America & the world we now live in. I was away from the Bay Area when this awful shooting took place, and upon my return in hearing of it, i was destroyed by the enormity of uncertainty it meant for us all. I was sickened by the actions of the BART police, both in their method of detaining as well as the complete disregard for the human life that seemed apparent. In witnessing the crime, my first thought is that it is murder… but then what?
  I do not now, nor will i ever, believe in the death penalty – due to the undeniable truth that innocent men die too, and more racially selective death happens at that level.. which is still one of the greatest shames of our supposed civilization. I would ask in the sake of the greiving family of the dear departed, and that of the officers involved, including one newly arrived life, that no more angry words be said, no more violence instigated. I would remind all that right now, as we live and breeth, freely able to type away to our heart’s content, there are women and children, and many other young brothers, dying from war’s manifestations & even more hatred than can be seen here this evening… i am not saying either is more important, but that perhaps the broader picture IS.
  Perhaps one life does equal hundreds or thousands; perhaps an eye can never really make up for the other eye. Perhaps this shooting was an accident; perhaps it was pure, unadulterated murder. Perhaps we are all guilty; perhaps no one truly is. But what i would ask, in any event, is twofold:
  *** Do you ever want to see another man be executed? Another child die in vain? Another displaced people move from one version of Hell to the next?
  If the answer is no, then i hope you are ready to stand up calmly, take the stage and make your voices, and not just your anger, heard loud and clear.
  *** Are any of you right now willing to say you have never, nor WILL never, commit a greivous sin?
  Let he who can say yes, please cast the first bloody stone.

• 138 Carlos Miller // Jan 11, 2009 at 11:19 PM

  Update: Was BART police officer Johannes Mehserle even carrying a Taser gun?

  http://carlosmiller.com/2009/01/11/was-bart-police-officer-johannes-mehserle-even-carrying-a-taser-gun/

• 139 curt // Jan 11, 2009 at 11:43 PM

  The cop fucked up, but all you screaming “murder” need to look up what murder is. Manslaughter (vol or non) at best.

• 140 strawberries // Jan 12, 2009 at 10:11 AM

  Make no mistake people….the cop that shot Oscar walked up to him from the left side of the video, while he was sitting down, and kneed/kicked him in the chest. That is why people already had their cameras out. The cops were already using excessive force.

  Then after oscar got up on his knees with his hands still up to speak to the cops, they wrestled him to the ground. At one point you can see the cop reach toward his gun. He then wrestles with “suspect” and then fumbles to pull out his “service weapon”, stands all the way up, and with both hands, aims, and shoots Oscar in the back. I’m sorry but EVEN IF he had a taser on him, how long does it take for you to realize that is not what you are holding?

  The whole taser thing came about after analysts (probably cops) looked at the video and said “well maybe he thought it was a taser”. Clearly this will be used as his defense. He can’t claim self defense, too many electronic witnesses.

  …and why after they shot him did they continue to drag and flip him? The chief even had the nerve to say “it is policy to handcuff someone after they’ve been shot to make sure they are no longer a threat”. He was DYING……what kinda damn threat was that? His friend was handcuffed and all he could do after seeing them shoot Oscar was to stand over him tryin to keep the cop (who had just shot him) from dragging him across the platform some more…..

• 141 strawberries // Jan 12, 2009 at 10:19 AM

  @ cop’s wife’s husband

  your example of cops being executed happens how many times LESS than police shooting unarmed people (esp minorities) and killing them?

  There is a very large gap….and I say that if a cop doesn’t feel that he should be held to the same standards as the general public, then we should all be very concerned.

  If it wasn’t a cop that did this, the person who shot Oscar would have been detained. Why not Mehserle?

• 142 Federale // Jan 12, 2009 at 10:50 AM

  Accident. No prosecutor could prove any intent to commit a crime. Those demanding an arrest are proto-dictators, communists with fanticies of being KGB agents. Just as the reporter on this website claims, you can’t be charged with a crime if there was no crime. Cop haters just want to be the same as the cops they hate.

• 143 Carlos Miller // Jan 12, 2009 at 12:15 PM

  Federale,

  How can any lawyer prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was an accident? Especially if it turns out, he was not carrying a Taser gun at the time?

  The only thing that we all can agree on is that the cop pulled out his gun and shot Oscar Grant.

  The fact that Grant was an ex-con is irrelevant to this case because none of those videos show Grant fighting the cop.

  For that matter, none of those videos show Grant fighting the groups of people, which lead to cops getting involved in the first place.

  Some witnesses say he was trying to break up the fight. We might never really know what took place beforehand.

  All we know is what we see on the videos, and it is very damaging to the officer.

• 144 Gomez // Jan 12, 2009 at 8:34 PM

  Blacks always resist arrest and make the situation much worse than it already is. That’s what happened in this case.

• 145 Gotta say something // Jan 12, 2009 at 9:16 PM

  Johannes is not a racist idot who became a cop so he could get a gun and kill someone.

  I knew him when I was in grade school up until college. He was bright and mild mannered.

  Im sure it was a fatal accident that he wishes he could undo.

  I mean no disrespect to his family and friends and I wish them peace and my condolences.

  Please don’t wish violence upon Johannes because I know he is tormented inside.

• 146 Carlos Miller // Jan 12, 2009 at 9:34 PM

  Gotta say something,

  I don’t wish violence upon him or his family, and I don’t agree with anybody who does.

  But many people fear that justice will not be served because he was a police officer at the time of the shooting.

  It’s happened too many times before.

  Whatever the reasons that lead up to the shooting, the fact is he did kill a man. And I don’t see how anybody can argue that it was in self-defense.

  And whether he may be tormented by his actions, another family is tormented by the death of a loved one.

  There are no winners in gun-related deaths.

• 147 Gotta say something // Jan 13, 2009 at 12:08 AM

  I don’t believe it was self defense either. The concept of defending his life, I don’t believe entered his thought process. Nor did taking anyones. I think we are on the same page with our feelings on gun violence.

  I do think a response with a taser would have been more than was waranted for a person handcuffed on the ground, but I was not there. And I don’t know what his training taught him to do.

  Cops are people. Capable of making mistakes. They are resonsible for maintaing the peace and put themselves in harms way to protect us.

  I’m not trying in anyway to minimize the death of a human being, or make it seem like he is not the reason why somebody is dead.

  I just wanted to share with people what I know about Johannes. Just like people want to share their feelings about Oscar. In a way, two lives ended that night.

• 148 FUCK THE POLICE // Jan 13, 2009 at 12:39 AM

  NEVER TRUST A COP!

• 149 Sickandtired // Jan 13, 2009 at 2:01 PM

  To “TheTruth”….you pencil dick shithead! This man was begging for his life and cooperating! What gives any man the rihgt to shoot someone in the back because he or she is not “being nice?!” Were you people born on the shores of ignorance?!! Thanks Moog for your comment…at least some of us have a conscience! Has it occured to anyone that whenever this happens, it’s always a white officer killing a young, black male?? Why is Caylee still getting more press than this. Where are all the angry white americans that rose to the occassion to destroy O.J.? This was a murder…he did not need a taser or hand gun in this situation!! Why won’t the news show this as much as Caylee? And for the asshole “thetruth”, whites curse, spit and say whatever they want to the police….they don’t get shot until they shoot first!!!! Dickless faggot!!!

• 150 CrackerJack // Jan 13, 2009 at 7:27 PM

  No one should ever trust a cop. They are mostly ex-jarheads who have a “shoot first and ask questions later” sort of mentality. They lie under oath, conceal facts and cover for each other constantly. Only when they are confronted with irrefutable facts (like video tape) will they ever break ranks.

  And they wonder why they get called “pigs”! There’s a lot worse they could and should be called!

  It’s time for the resurrection of an old San Francisco institution: the Committee of Vigilance to take care of scum like Mehserle and the ass-holes who will go out of their way to protect him.

• 151 the bulldog // Jan 13, 2009 at 7:48 PM

  dear cracker-fuckstick,
  cops are NOT mostly ex-jarheads, they are just people who suffer from microphallus therefore affecting their self esteem!
  sincerly,
  ex-jarhead

• 152 Chuck // Jan 13, 2009 at 9:09 PM

  YOPU MURDERING MOTHER FUCKERS!!! LITTLE MICROPHALLUS BOY SHOT HIM DEAD ASS IN THE BACK. WHAT THE FUCK ARE THESE ASSHOLES GETTING AWATY WITH, THEY HAD HIM FACE DOWN, YES FACE DOWN WITH TWO OTHER MURDERING MOTHER FUCKERS HOLDING HIM DOWN WHILE MICROPHALLUS BOY SHOT HIM IN THE BACK, SHOT HIM DEAD. IT TIME FOR EVERYONE DOWN THERE TO START CARRYING A GUN SO THEY CAN DEFEND THEMSELVES FROM THE LAWLESS MURDERING BART POLICE!!

• 153 Chuck // Jan 13, 2009 at 9:14 PM

  HEY gottsaysomthing DID YOU WATCH THE VIDEO HE STOOD UP TOOK A STEP BACK REMOVED HIS FIRARM FROM HIS HOLSTER POINTED AT HIM A THEN MURDERED HIM!! THAT WAS NO ACCIDENT IT WAS PUPOSEFUL AND DELIBERATE!!!

• 154 Chuck // Jan 13, 2009 at 9:26 PM

  ARE YOU STUPID OR JUST IGNORANT, MAYBE IT JUST WHAT YOUR COP HUSBAND HAS INDOCTRINATED YOU, ANYWAY WHAT A PIECE OF SHIT YOU ARE.
  Cops wife // Jan 9, 2009 at 7:00 PM

  I don’t think people have any right to post videos of this stuff on the internet. I don’t see that its anyones business except the officers about what went on. As a proud police wife I know for a fact that it was more than likely not on purpose that he grabbed the gun he was more than likely reaching for his taser. You people are sick that sat and videoed this you should really get a life and that is really sick that you posted it on line. Oh and another thing I get so sick of hearing people sit and bash cops and say nothing but crap about them, but then turn around and when they are in trouble cops are the first people they call so think about it next time that you talk bad about a cop think about who is going to be there when you need help.

• 155 shmooel // Jan 13, 2009 at 10:05 PM

  Leo, of comment 27 -

  Are you stoopid or wot? The passengers on flight 93 had ****cell phone calls**** informing them of the planes flying into the WTC. You live in a cave?

• 156 Critical view // Jan 14, 2009 at 6:01 AM

  Somethings that still have not been mentioned regardless of whether or not it was an Execution or an accident please draw your own logical deductions from these insights;
  1. most LEO’s choose that career path because they [drool/have fantasies] about being Jack Bauer and would love the opportunity to be a HERO (read: shoot a criminal if they are given the lawful opportunity to do so)
  2. Our Government Exploits this subset of society by allowing them to become LEO’s with minimal requirements (no need for a college degree) yet the career path pays comparable to one who has chosen to complete college thus limiting the incentive to an interested college bound (read: intelligent) person in wanting to join the force.
  3. LEO’s are allowed to Kill in the name of Crime Prevention a privilege not bestowed on the general citizenry
  4. The general Citizenry is denied the right to be prepared for the use of legally justifiable self-defense (Read: the right NOT PRIVILEGE to carry a concealed firearm)
  5. The Government has a vested interest in protecting it’s institutions from criminal and civil sanctions(i.e. if the executed guy’s family wins a 100 million dollar judgment that is an opportunity cost to the city in providing security for the rest by reducing the total outlay of cash available for law enforcement)

  What can be deduced from these 5 statements in my mind are two solutions that Should be Aired immediately

  Solution #1
  As others have noted officer carelessness, whether malicious/callous/retarded has grown exponentially in recent years mandating the need for a prosecutorial body independent of the normal District Attorney’s office in each state with the sole purpose of investigating and prosecuting crimes perpetrated by law enforcement officers and their cohorts as well as superiors

  Solution #2
  A Supreme court precedent recognizing the right of the general citizenry to be prepared with a concealed weapon should they happen to be victimized in a situtation calling for justifiable self defense.

  Solution 2 acknowledges a right considered sacred by the founding father’s that is the right to self defense none of the great legal commentators ever questioned a human beings right to self-defense if their life was in imminent danger what that translates to in modern times where criminals shoot good samaratins regularly is the right to carry the tools necessary for justifiable self-defense above and beyond any fundamental rights granted by the 2nd amendment. Legal scholars/attorneys/and judges need to seriously consider couching an individuals right to carry a concealed weapon under the fundamental right to self-defense and the logical deduction that one must be prepared to defend themselves should the situation arise.

  Which also raises fairly clear equal protection issues i.e. why is it we have two classes of citizens in America those privy to be prepared to protect themselves with a concealed weapon (Read: a privilege granted to every off-duty LEO) and the rest of us normal law abiding citizens who are not? of course all restrictions that currently apply to ownership and possession of a firearm should continue but those who own a legally registered firearm should be able to carry it!!

• 157 CASH // Jan 14, 2009 at 1:28 PM

  You have bloods, crips, latin kings, and etc. All huge gangs known for their territorial beefs, violence, and members that range in the thousands. As violent as they may be, none is more notorious than the biggest gang in America…..”THE POLICE DEPARTMENT”. I’m not sure how many of you saw the execution, (or are just seeing the execution) that took place in an Oakland Subway by Bart Police, but come on enough is enough. How longer is it that these terriost can hide behind badges!?!….And not every cop is bad, its just the majority. Even in the Bart shooting after it took place, the rest of the cops stepped back in shock as if they were saying “why did you shoot him”. From Rodney King, to Jenna Six, to the Bart shooting, how much more will we take? As sad as it may be, I think that they will end up putting this cop, sorry I mean Terrorist, in some hick town and hope people forget what happen. I feel that the police are granted a certain amount of authority and I don’t have a problem with that. However, when that authority is abused then the consequences of their actions should be greater than that of a normal citizen. The same way it is for us. If you assault someone or murder someone then YES you will be arrested and convicted. But if you do the same to a police officer the time is greater and the punishment is worse. The same rules should apply to police officers who abuse the authority that they have been granted, but this can’t be done till we speak up and let our voices continue to be heard. In this situation the victim was on his back with his hands behind him and his face to the ground. It was said that the officer mistaken his pistol for a taser. If you can’t tell the difference then you shouldn’t be a cop!!! And if you were going for you taser, what was the reason for that? The victim was in custody waiting to be handcuff and the others were calmly on there knees waiting for the same. For what reason did this man need to be tasered, or even worse MURDERED? And if he was causing so much drama, then why are the people on the train so calm about the situation before the shooting took place. If he was a threat then someone would had stated that. Bottom line this Father, son, friend, was executed by the Police. This cop should be given the same treatment that the victim would had been given if he would had shot and murdered the cop. Think about that for a second. If the tables had been turned. If the cop was on the ground, hands behind his back and the victim shot and murdered him at that moment….what would his conviction be? Exactly, and that’s the same conviction this Terrorist deserves…
  I challenge anyone from the person reading this comment to the Jay-Z’s, Al Sharptons, Obama, to Oprah…to pay close attention to the case and do their part to make sure justice has been served. Not only that we all need to voice our options to make sure this never repeats itself. Its 09, we put a black president in the white house….we can change the laws if we want to. And if we can’t change them…then we can at least make them fair.

  MYSPACE.COM/MARVANDCASH
  GOGGLE: MARV & CASH

• 158 Chuck // Jan 14, 2009 at 1:36 PM

  You’ve got the right idea CRITICAL VIEW. And my comment on your solution #2 is that you do as we have here in Alaska, where we established the right of the people to carry a firearm whether concealed or not. I personally always have either my pistol or Winchester rifle with me at all times. It is not very common but not unusual to be shopping at the grocery store and the guy or gal shopping with you has their fiream strapped on. I personally think that it has had the additional bebnefit of making the general public and LEO’s a lot more polite upon initial contact with you. I had a friend up once from the lower 48 and got stopped for having my studs on too late in the year. The state Trooper came to my window said “Good Morning” and aske dif I had any fire arms in the vehicle. I responded, “Yes I have a pistol in the cnter console and my Rifle in the back of the truck cab.” Trooper said Thank you may I have your license and he went back to his car and wrote me a ticket. My friend was amazed that I wqasn’t immediately dragged out of the trucka and thrown across the hood and arrested. Our exchange continued and the Trooper finished his business with me in a like polite manner.

  What people have to realize is that while they should cooperate with LEO’s they are by no means required to let them search them personally, search thier car, or any other invasive action. The LEO must state the reason that you have been stopped and detained, you are under no obligation to respond to thier questions other than with the polite response, “f I am not under investigative detention please allow me to leave.” Somene in a previous post mentioned the old standar tactic of LEO’s stopping you for a taillight and then excpanding thier encroachment to start searching your car. Remember they must tell you why they are detaining you, and you need only answer the questions pertainig to that identified item, (but don’t foget they cannot compel you to answer and use that to incriminate you 5th amanedment) when they ask if they can look in your car you should politely answer, No you may not, (4th amendment, unlawful search and siezure), if you are through may I leave? People in this country need to remember that they do have rights and they can exercise those rights without fear of reprisal. You have to stand up for yourself!! If they continue to treat you in a manner inconsistant with your rights ask to leave, refuse to answer, let them arrest you and then tell it to the judge, the newspaper and everyne who will listen. Alrighty then.

  On a side note one of my favorite things to do is to pick those magnetic tags off on the merchandise I buy and put them in my pockets, and stick them to my belt and when I walk out of the store they ring those alarm posts. When they say, “May I see inside your bag?” I tell hem, “No you may not”, and continue on my way. I tell them “I don’t have to. If you think I stole something then arrest me other wise, Piss off.” No matter how hard they try to make you. YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO ALLOW THE INTRUSIVE AND INVASIVE action they want to try. You are innocent until proven guilty. If they put thier hands on you or otherwise attempt or cause you to be detained they have in fact “arrested you” and are now liable for civil tort for “false arrest” if they are wrong. Just remember you cannot have stolen anything and of course if you paid you know you did and that is all that is required you need not satify thier fishing expeditions. I find that it also helps educate what is otherwise a modern
  “dumbed down” public that they indeed do have rights and just anybody cannot walk on you rights.

• 159 Dave // Jan 14, 2009 at 3:54 PM

  “Michael // Jan 9, 2009 at 5:33 AM
  Burn and Loot. Kill any Pig. Fuck That. Avenge Oscar Grant”

  Michael just gave permission to loot his place out of anger for what happened. Anyone know where he lives?

• 160 Riss // Jan 14, 2009 at 4:12 PM

  Hi people…

  Just so you know, murder in this country, by legal definition, means that one person INTENTIONALLY caused the death of another. I don’t know what video you watched but the actions of the transit cop in question didn’t look as if he meant to kill the guy. I buy the taser theory more than anything else. Should he go to jail? Yes. The guy was already handcuffed so it wouldn’t even have mattered if he was reaching for a weapon. He didn’t require tasering. However, it’s NOT murder.

• 161 Carlos Miller // Jan 14, 2009 at 4:31 PM

  Riss,

  What exactly did you see in that video that tells you he didn’t mean to kill Oscar Grant?

  He pulled out his weapon, took aim and fired.

  This wasn’t a gun going off accidentally while he was cleaning it or show it to somebody.

  This wasn’t a bullet ricocheting off a wall or something.

  This wasn’t a gun going off in a struggle and striking some innocent bystander.

  He clearly aimed it at the suspect’s back and pulled the trigger.

  If I pulled a gun out an officer and pointed it at him, I would be shot dead in a hail of bullets because police are trained to kill anybody who appears to want to kill them.

• 162 Steve // Jan 14, 2009 at 5:48 PM

  I bet if Oscar could do it all over, he would have kept his mouth shut and obeyed the officers’ commands.

• 163 Carlos Miller // Jan 14, 2009 at 5:56 PM

  Steve,

  It looked as if he was doing just that.

• 164 Critical view // Jan 14, 2009 at 6:49 PM

  I also feel that the officer that held down Oscar should receive accomplice liability BUT NOT the third officer whose hand was on another suspect as he spoke into his radio… not enough attention is being given to the 2nd officer who complicity allowed this execution to occur… note the third officers shock to the shooting as he puts his hand on his holster BUT DOES NOT DRAW HIS WEAPON whereas the OFFICER ASSISTING allows M. to shooting OSCAR.

• 165 kelly // Jan 14, 2009 at 7:24 PM

  regarding the speculation about whether he meant to pull his taser instead, my sister is a police officer and her department recently started carrying tasers.
  she’s right handed, her gun, also a sig, is on her right hip. if she wants to use her taser, she has to reach across her body to her left side holster. no mistaking the gun for the taser. i don’t know how bart does it, but it seems to me a smart system her department has in place.

• 166 Mike // Jan 14, 2009 at 8:33 PM

  It always baffles me when people think rioting, looting, and killing are somehow “ok” when a cop does something wrong. Leaving whether it was murder, accident, whatever, aside for a moment, let’s assume it was premeditated from a month ago. Cop says, “I’m killing someone on New Year’s Eve.” EVEN with that outrageous notion, why is it now ok for you to kill other cops, riot (ie destroy other people’s property), and make stupid ass comments on blogs? If he was a “bad” cop who committed a violent crime, what right do you now have because of that? When all you Oakland gangbangers pull a drive-by, does whitey riot and recommend mass killings of black people? You people are nuts. Far too stupid to function in society. And I am amazed that you have the ability to use a computer and write down your ridiculous thoughts for the rest of us to endure.

  It’s sad what happened. Leave it at that. Just like any other human killing another, it should be dealt with as such. Stop with your “kill the cops” and “riot” BS.

• 167 TwoSocks // Jan 14, 2009 at 9:38 PM

  Steve, wrote
  “I bet if Oscar could do it all over, he would have kept his mouth shut and obeyed the officers’ commands.”

  True. However, I bet if Mehserle could do it all over, he wouldn’t have murdered Oscar.

  Cash, I believe no human life should be valued higher than another. All human life, regardless of occupation, if taken illegally should carry the same punishment. It shouldn’t matter if the person is a cop or an old lady. The punishment should be the same.

• 168 arqueware // Jan 14, 2009 at 10:41 PM

  The suspect WAS NOT cuffed, possibly until AFTER the shot was fired.

  His arms are clearly dangling freely after the shot was fired. He was restrained, however, prior to the shot.

  Notice the officers’ attitudes toward the remaining suspects after the shot, much more conciliatory than previously. They had clearly entered ‘damage-control’ mode, and the ‘tough-guy-with-gun’ attitude is gone.

  strange days

• 169 arqueware // Jan 14, 2009 at 11:09 PM

  I don’t approve of random violence, in the case of rioting and looting. However, had it not been for the rioting, would this case have garnered any national media attention?

  In this case, rioting serves the important function of drawing attention to an egregious incident that would otherwise have been suppressed or overlooked.

• 170 Vanessa // Jan 14, 2009 at 11:20 PM

  Mike,
  I started not to give your absurd post the dignity of response… but it’s YOU and not “your people” who had the audacity to form such a blatantly hate filled response.

  I am equally baffled at the blanket assuptions you make that those who inhabit the group you refer to as “you people” are all ignorant and illiterate and as you say…

  “You people are nuts. Far too stupid to function in society. And I am amazed that you have the ability to use a computer and write down your ridiculous thoughts for the rest of us to endure.”

  I will merely say this… when several people are ranting and raving, it is EXTREMELY difficult to tell who the so-called sane, intelligent and literate one is. I found your comments as asinine as the ones you mentioned.

  Go figure…

• 171 arqueware // Jan 14, 2009 at 11:29 PM

  Vanessa:

  POSTED: don’t feed the trolls

• 172 Carlos Miller // Jan 14, 2009 at 11:53 PM

  Arqueware,

  Have you seen the slow motion version of the video. It think it shows the suspect was handcuffed.

  http://carlosmiller.com/2009/01/09/slow-motion-video-of-bart-shooting-video-shows-more-details/comment-page-1/#comment-4069

• 173 Lee // Jan 15, 2009 at 12:06 AM

  So it was obviously a horrible accident. The circumstances of the shooting, wheather the cops were being dicks or the kids were thugs doesn’t matter.

  It is however a bad thing if it is department policy to wear the taser in the offhand side and the officer choose to break the rules and instead wear it on his shooting hand side, thereby increasing the chance of an accident. I’m not a lawyer but that sounds like depraved indifference (if there is such a thing). Also the officers supervisor and every level of leadership at Bart is negligent for allowing him to carry it like this.

• 174 Vanessa // Jan 15, 2009 at 12:19 AM

  arquere:

  Point taken….

• 175 arqueware // Jan 15, 2009 at 12:44 AM

  perhaps they removed the cuffs after the shooting, Carlos, but the end of the video shows what appears to be his left arm hanging limply.

  that’s all beside the point, which has been expressed clearly and repeatedly. The DA has charged the fugitive ex-officer with murder, pending any challenge of extradition.

• 176 Sad Really // Jan 15, 2009 at 4:17 AM

  I hope this is a life changing moment for all the people on the train. Here’s a suggestion of what you should do when dealing with a man with a gun: Defuse the situation or don’t do anything at all. Yell and scream and help incite the situation? Thats a BIG reason why the kid got shot.

  You think that kid would have got shot if none of those other people were around yelling?

  Cops a stupid freaking idiot which is about on par with the majority of the human population particularly those idiots on the train who couldnt keep there mouths shut.

  When was the last shooting at this train station anyways oct 08?

• 177 Mike // Jan 15, 2009 at 1:06 PM

  Vanessa,

  It is people like you who blow things like this into race issues. I never once said anything about black people being “you people”. “You people” was referring to the idiots on this forum who feel the need to post their unintelligent, racist, and baffling comments like “bad cop = we should riot”. Maybe it is you that needs a “sanity” check.

• 178 Ed the Fed // Jan 15, 2009 at 1:52 PM

  ACCIDENT: Watch the palm of his left hand and shrug of his shoulders in a “WTF?” motion immediately after discharge. ALSO WATCH HIM BRIEFLY BRING HIS HAND TO HIS FACE like “Holy Shit, what did I just do?!?” Tragic accident.
  Fatal Rookie mistake.
  Poor training.
  Massive lawsuit.
  Innocent man dies.
  Guns and untrained cops don’t mix.
  Never remove your weapon when subduing prisoners. I know. I’m a cop.

• 179 TwoSocks // Jan 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM

  Mike,
  I think when you said “you people” that you were subconsiously referring to African-Americans. I may be wrong, but that’s my opinion.

  Vanessa,
  If it’s any consolation, my brother was white, and he was killed by a white officer. The officer was acquitted of manslaughter charges, and we lost the civil case. To be honest with you, I didn’t see anything in the BART video to suggest that it was race related.

• 180 Mike // Jan 15, 2009 at 2:41 PM

  Two Socks,

  I actually was not, but thanks for assuming all white people are racist. I was specifically referring to the posters themselves and I can’t tell from a computer screen what race, sex, or religion they are.

  That’s the real problem here though. As you state to Vanessa, this doesn’t appear to be race related. Nobody but that officer knows what was in his head and in his heart, but like you point out, it does not appear to be racially motivated. The real problem is that any time an event happens to involve white and black people, it becomes a white VS black issue. Why? Why can’t it be that a man killed a man? Why can’t it be that a bad guy killed a good guy? From what I have heard, Oscar was a pretty good person. Of course every parent and family member says that about their “baby”, but I certainly have no evidence to the contrary. So we have a bad cop who killed a good kid. Not a white cop who killed a black kid. And for those who turn it into that, you are more racist for not wearing your color-blindness glasses than the employers, colleges, and other establishments who also incorrectly do not. We are all people, not races.

• 181 No One // Jan 15, 2009 at 2:54 PM

  This is a sad situation and it sucks. This is America, however people die everyday and we don’t care and if this video was never made and the shooter wasn’t a cop, the majority of people wouldn’t care. People get shot everyday in a horrible situations and for reasons that it isn’t their fault, yet we are only saying something when it has been mediarized. Otherwise we go on with our own lives not caring about anyone else but our own. If the media doesn’t deem it important, then neither do we. It is 2009 and this country still has problems with race,if the police officer killed a white guy no one would care as much and that is the truth. Whether you want to believe it or not.

• 182 TwoSocks // Jan 15, 2009 at 3:27 PM

  Sorry Mike. African-Americans have had to live with racism all of their lives. I know, because I have lived in the south all of my life. I can see how they would be cynical, but I think things are definitely improving. I never would have believed we would ever see an African-American president in our life times. It’s refreshing to see that it has finally happened.

  No One,
  A video speaks a million words. Something that can never really ever be adquately captured in writing. I agree that had there been no video it wouldn’t have remained mainstream news for this long.

• 183 Mike // Jan 15, 2009 at 4:03 PM

  It has remained mainstream news for so long because people are rioting, looting, and doing other insane acts because of it. If the kid was white or the cop was black or hispanic, this would be old news by now. Keep on playing the race card until America elects a minority President… oh wait, we did! Get off it, most white people aren’t racist as clearly demonstrated by us electing a black man to the most powerful position in the world!

  Clearly America is mostly color blind, so stop perpetuating racism by adding race to every incident.

• 184 Chuck // Jan 15, 2009 at 4:05 PM

  Mike, Two Socks, Vanessa, if you want to MAKE it into a race issue you should call up Sharpton, or Jackson they have spent a lifetime causing all kinds of controversy, and misunderstanding because if they didn’t then they would be out of a job.

  And you all seem to have a good grip on how to do that yourselves, as it seems you all are reading volumes into sentence fragments, don’t have such a sensitive bunch of buttons that you push at will to make something out of nothing.

• 185 leo (not as in a leo, as in my name is leo) // Jan 15, 2009 at 4:09 PM

  no one:

  what you fail to comprehend is that

  1) this was not mentioned in BIG MEDIA, not the way it should have been, not until the riots and people became outraged that nothing was being done.
  2) the issue here is not that a white cop killed a black person, the issue is that a cop shot a human being when he had no possible reason to, and he did not only injure but KILL
  3) everyone that does not want to face the fact that it is a police problem, not a race problem. The way cops are taught and allowed to behave is the real problem. You and others like you who might just be ignorant about this, or they might be defending the way police do their jobs, and thus are trying to equate this murder to a racial crime, and it is NOT. Whether the victim was black or white it would have been handled the same way by police, except if he was white then there might have been more chance that the reseult that we see now would not have happened, though the current result is not really a result because in the end he still might get off with no punishment.
  4) people get shot everyday but not when they are laying face down with their hands behind their back with one cop with a knee on you neck and the other one shoots you in the back, not to mention he was not fleeing/he was not fighting back in a way that warranted the cop to even pull his GUN out… and the whole mistaken taser thing is ridiculous..and after reading the cop forums its sickening how police officers think.. their whole train of thought is not for the safety of the people they are protecting..nor innocent until proven guilty, they have a all guilty all the time mentality, the opposite of american law, they are the ones who should be protecting us, the ones who should have higher morals, not be a good officer when their happy and a different officer when their pissed about something that has nothing to do with the situation… police have the highest trust of the US government and the most important job in the USA, they carry a gun among civilians day to day and have the responsibility of not breaking the law but to uphold it, when an officer commits the highest possible crime against humanity and takes a life when he is sworn to protect it it is very different than a normal every day shooting. do you see anything different than the regular every day shootings Yes this might happen more often day to day and not be reported or lied about in reports because facts show police take care of their own, by lying and changing small facts to fit what will be the best outcome for them, maybe the guy was a murdering drug dealer but i had no right to a warrant so ill place this cocaine in a way that i could have seen it so it gave me probably cause… get the drifto?

  anyway you look at this.. if the victim was white or if he was black… that changes nothing in this case.. the only positive thing is that since he was black there was more of an outrage and the police department had no choice but to follow through with a real investigation (if that is what it is and not just a smoke screen to make the public not hate that police department) i feel if the victim was white there would not have been riots… not because blacks are more tempered or angry but because cops on blacks has been going on and at a higher rate and level than cops on whites for decades.

  i dont understand how anyone can defend the cop at all, he even quit the force because anyone that did not feel they commited a crime would have defended themselves and kept doing their job, but he quit the force because he was trying to get away. Sure he did not flee the country, but someone who is not from outside the US most likely wont have anywhere to go, and he knows that even if he goes to jail for 20 years that he wont be treated as bad as the other inmates because he is one of their own (the gaurds and the prison system) …

  i really hope he gets what he deserves in our legal system and not what his connections and pba card entitle him to. Sickening that the ones who are supposed to protect us are more dangerous than the ones who are criminals, a criminal will think twice before shooting, a cop wont.

• 186 TwoSocks // Jan 15, 2009 at 4:12 PM

  Chuck,
  I just want to ask you one question. Be honest with me now. Was the Rodney King beating a race issue? A yes or no answer will suffice.

• 187 Richy D // Jan 15, 2009 at 4:39 PM

  I think this is absolutley disgusting and what is worse you have some idiots on this board justifying by saying “hes houldn’t have been acting rowdy with his friends”. Hell m and my friends get drunk when we go out and have a hell of a prty – I hope this doent’t justify me getting shot in the back. If you can see this and justify it, then you are an evil racist simple and plain!

• 188 TwoSocks // Jan 15, 2009 at 5:01 PM

  Richy, I agree with you. I was out partying with my brothers. My baby brother never made it home. I think generally that cops typically escalate a situation as opposed to deescalating a situation. They’ll take a simple argument, and turn it into a fist fight. They’ll take a simple fist fight, and turn it into gun fight. They’ll take a gun fight, and turn it into a massacre.

• 189 Jeff R. // Jan 15, 2009 at 6:05 PM

  The worse thing about that video is THAT IT IS COMMON.
  This happens more than 100 times a year. Cops have been traditionally trained to harass Blacks and Hispanics. If they were white they would not have even used the knee to hold them down.
  It the mentality of American Justice.

  the following is not a blanket statement about all whites. But it does apply to a good portion of them and it also applies to people of color in law enforcement.

  FOLLOW THIS FOR A SECOND.
  When slavery was abolished whites would still shun and treat blacks like they were not human. Lynchings went on a sharp rise. Blacks were afraid to go to the law official because that usually ment that they were gonna be lynched soon by the law and some rural blue collar red necks in the KKK.
  So what happened was blacks stopped trusting the police and stopped reporting the crimes against them that were carried out by whites.
  Eventually, the LAW OFFICERS started coming to their settlements and committing crimes there against blacks. It was a polices and white peoples pass time.
  They would bring their kids to see the black men and women tortured and hung. They would teach their children these practices and some would take their sons out to participate in their first lynching like a right of passage.
  These children grew up to become law officers and judges. So as lynching became less popular, they switched it to in justice thru the courts and exclusion from prosperity.
  the police of the 70′s and 80′s were the children of people who would grew up with parents that taught them that blacks are less than human and probably took them to see lynchings.

  A white man would go to court for theft and because he returned the item or had the money to pay he would hardly ever get jail time. Black men who went to courts with the same charge would get 2-5 years.
  In the 80′s they would and still do give out more time for crack than powdered cocaine. This was mainly because crack was in the black neighbor hoods and cocaine was normally a white persons drug.
  The pattern of police became arresting people who they thought didn’t know their right and could not afford attorneys. Lots of people were arrest simply because they didn’t know their rights or did have money.
  It was an easy target for police because they knew that the push back would come due to economic situation.
  Meanwhile in the middle to upper class neighborhoods people had money to not only hire a lawyer to defend them but to also file a wrongful arrest law suit. Police who would dtick to arresting the poor were less likely to have a lawyer after the city and their jobs.
  This practice taught the already skewed police to arrest blacks & hispanics more. their tactics were hardly ever questioned unless the arrestee was white.
  Blacks knew this so they started running whenever they would see a police officer. They would turn and walk the other way. Walking turned to all out running even when they had committed no crimes EVER.
  You se, just as the white racist of the south taught their children that blacks were sub-white or sub-human and its ok to kill one.
  Blacks were teaching their kids not to speak back to a white man or they will lynch you. They taught you stay away from the police or they will get you. The police became the boogie man to blacks.
  Even today if you go to a not so middle, middle class black area and have a bunch of honor roll students sitting around the park chatting. They will all get quiet and begin to leave or want to leave. Its not that they have committed a crime its just history has taught them to have a fear of law enforcement and justice systems because they are there to capture hispanics and blacks.

  THIS IS AN AMERICAN MENTALITY

  example 1:
  Watch the news when a Hispanic lady accidently allowed her son to drown in scalding water . The first thing you heard about her was how negligent she was and how she wasn’t fit to be a mother.
  When Andrea Yate drowned all of her children the first thing we heard about her is she has been struggling with depression, and that it was sad that her treatment didn’t work. Not that she was a monster or a bad parent.

  example 2:
  The same day that Timothy Nicols shot >4< people at an atlanta court house, Terry Ratzmann shoot and killed 7 people in a church (4 injured also). The first thing that i heard about him was that he had been suffering from depression and other wise was a nice guy.
  Brian Nicols was described as a very dangerous menace. He was a huge black man and ready to kill.

  example 3:
  During the presidential campaign 2 mean climbed the NY times building. They both climbed to the top and was arrested immediately.
  One said he climbed to raise awareness of global warming. The other said he wanted to raise awareness of malaria in Hattie because his mother and cousin died of the disease.
  They both went to court without representation.

  The New York Times wrote this about the conclusion:
  “”"…..While a grand jury dismissed all criminal charges against Mr. Robert, grand juries indicted Mr. Clarke and Mr. Malone on several charges, including misdemeanor reckless endangerment, which is punishable by up to a year in jail. The cases against Mr. Clarke and Mr. Malone are pending…..”"”

  We already know the difference But Mr. Roberts had a criminal record also. Mr. Clarke didn’t have a criminal record.

  We have a problem America and it starts with our way of thinking about the other races. That guy will not be the last to be shot.

  As far as my examples they are 3 out of millions.

  WHAT THAT COP DID IS COMMON AND SHOULD BE EXPECTED IN THE MOST RACIST WESTERN COUNTRY AVAILABLE TO NAME.

• 190 Mike // Jan 15, 2009 at 6:37 PM

  TwoSocks,

  Rodney King? Really? You do realize that the actual facts were that only the last 4 strikes of the 76 inflicted were deemed “excessive”. That means the first 72 were warranted as clearly demonstrated by King’s repeated attempts at fighting and failure to comply with the officers. And who of you who have been in a fist fight would have the control in that kind of situation to throw 70+ punches and then stop immediately as to say, “oh that last one was just enough, no more” without throwing 2 or 3 “unnecessary” ones? Give me a break. If you want to use an example of injustice, use a real one. I’m not saying I advocate violence against anyone, but if you fight the police and get worked over, that’s on you. (Not saying that this relates to Oscar in any way, just pointing out that Rodney King is not a good example of “cops gone bad”.)

• 191 TwoSocks // Jan 15, 2009 at 6:51 PM

  Mike,
  Thankyou, you have verified conclusively to everyone here that you are a racist son of a bitch. Now if we can just get Chuck’s opinion on this topic. Chuck where are you?

• 192 TwoSocks // Jan 15, 2009 at 7:21 PM

  Mike,
  I think you need to rewatch this video:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROn_9302UHg

  Your analysis is absolutely wrong!

• 193 Mike // Jan 15, 2009 at 8:17 PM

  TwoSocks,

  Yeah, I’m the racist. You were probably cheering when they read the OJ verdict. I’m sorry the facts of Rodney King discount your ability to make everything in life about race.

• 194 Mike // Jan 15, 2009 at 8:31 PM

  TwoSocks,

  By the way, do you even know what Rodney King was on parole (YES PAROLE) for when he was beaten? Any guesses? Ding, ding, ding! He beat a convenience store clerk with a tire iron. Hmm… might want to pick a better “messiah” when crying poor “Rodney”.

• 195 TwoSocks // Jan 15, 2009 at 8:34 PM

  No Buddy,
  You’re wrong about that. I think O.J. is guilty.
  It’s ironic that you mention O.J. Do you want to know why O.J. was acquitted? Believe it or not. It was because of racist cops tampering with the evidence. All of the evidence that could have convicted O.J. was thrown out. The officers involved were trying to make sure that O.J. got convicted. It backfired.

• 196 TwoSocks // Jan 15, 2009 at 8:37 PM

  Mike,
  Did you watch the video? Without knowing anything about King’s past and being objective, do you think that video looks okay to you?

• 197 Mike // Jan 15, 2009 at 8:41 PM

  TwoSocks,

  Granted Ferman was a racist SOB, but I too would be “trying to make sure that O.J. got convicted” considering he murdered two people with a knife. With a KNIFE! Not like pansies these days who pull a trigger. He got up close and personal and slit throats! That’s a hard core M-erF-er. And a chorus of cheers rang out on that day… a sad day in history.

• 198 Mike // Jan 15, 2009 at 8:48 PM

  TwoSocks,

  Do you know that the video everyone saw was edited? Did you know that? It was 81 seconds long and TV showed 68 seconds. They failed to show the part where the 250 man blew off two tazings like nothing and then charged officers. He’s lucky he wasn’t shot. The reason that the officers weren’t convicted was that the entire video along with a lot of other facts were presented. The media made it into something more horrible than it was. All we saw was 4 cops with batons hitting someone for no apparent reason. Do you know that King had two passengers who were arrested without a scratch before the drunk King decided to go WWF with officers? These “racist” officers took two into custody without an incident and then King chose not to go with the program. He was charging officers AFTER 2 TAZINGS and you bet your ass you’d be swinging for the fences too. Cut to video at this moment and it looks like poor man being beaten. Not quite the case.

• 199 TwoSocks // Jan 15, 2009 at 8:53 PM

  Well Mike,
  I agree that O.J. shouldn’t have gotten away with it, but that doesn’t make it right for cops to frame people. They must be above that.

  Anyways, I guess we are getting a little off topic here. I know some folks here think that cops should be held to a higher standard than us mere civilians. I happen to agree. I’m thinking that whatever crime a cop is found guilty of the court should kick it up to the next tier. So, if this officer is found guilty of voluntary manslaughter, it should automatically get bumped up to 2nd degree murder, because he is a cop. What do you think? Or maybe double the maximum sentence normally given?

• 200 TwoSocks // Jan 15, 2009 at 8:58 PM

  I guess I’ve never seen the whole video. Why can’t four officers physically man handle King without resorting to beating him to an inch of his life?

  He was done for those last 68 seconds from what I see. They should of just put the cuffs on him and been done with him. They made it very personal.

• 201 Jeff R. // Jan 15, 2009 at 9:16 PM

  who said rodney king?

• 202 Jeff R. // Jan 15, 2009 at 9:41 PM

  These Statements are NOT blanket statements. If you are offended then your one of the people i am talking about.

  rodney king and OJ neither relates to this. the only people who yell anger at oj in my experience is people who hated the verdict but loved that kenedys got off for Chapaquitic (however its spelt).

  Rodney king was excessive but he helped the situation too. The only people who yell Rodney king are the uninformed blacks that think its a good example.

  Sean Belle – good example
  the guy who was shot at his front door in ny – good example.

  Rodney King is a black mans cry to find an example when he has not read very much. Same as whites screaming OJ Did it!!!!!!

  I am black but i get tired of hear people of my race holla murder. Before it happened what was ya doing about it.

  Just like Farah Kann he points out all the problems with black unity but then refuses the NAACP, Nation BLK Caucus, and any other black organization, when they want to team up on an initiative.

  White are doing the same accept they don’t know any better. Its not that they don’t think this guy who was shot was in the wrong. Its just they would prefer to continue thinking that blacks and hispanics are that dangerous. That way they don’t have to feel guilty about being a RURAL BLUE COLAR RIGHT WING SEPARATIST AMERICAN VOTER. they are the Sarah Palin wing from the more American parts of America, where there is less diversity.

  White people in that category wouldn’t think that the cops were wrong if they shot a black preacher in his bed, on his 50th wedding anniversary, in the middle of his sleep.

  By The Way
  the definition of evangelical is:
  a christian that thinks diversity is against god. Back in the slave days they were called Christian.
  Once they realized that blacks were christian they switched to Evangelical. Never seen a black , latino or asian call them selves Evangelical. Hmmmmmmmmm?

• 203 TwoSocks // Jan 15, 2009 at 10:41 PM

  Hey Jeff R,
  I don’t believe that OJ is innocent. His recent conviction kind of confirms that he had potential to do the crime. He definitely had a motive. If he didn’t do it, then who did? Is the case still open? Are the police still looking for the killer?

  I don’t believe that Ted Kennedy is innocent either. He went off the bridge with the girl in the back seat. He left her to drown. He tried to get a cousin to take the blame for him. That’s three felonies: leaving the scene of an accident with injuries; manslaughter; obstructing an investigation and providing false information. He was never charged with a crime. What a travesty of justice.

• 204 Chuck // Jan 15, 2009 at 10:47 PM

  Two Socks, its not a Yes or No answer, I don’t know what he did or was doing when he started to get beat, he apparently was a person of poor judgement in his life prior, and again ran afoul of the law later. If he wanted to fight the officers than they should have at least let him go at it with one officer in a fist fight, took his lumps and walked away.

  Answer me this was it okay for all the people who rioted and beat people indiscriminatly because of what happened? You can pontificate beyond YES or NO.

• 205 TwoSocks // Jan 15, 2009 at 10:58 PM

  Chuck,
  No it was not okay to riot and beat up people, especially in their own neighborhoods. I guess I will never understand that mentality. Will someone out there please explain?

  However, what I will say if the Rodney King riot didn’t occur, those four officers would have walked free with no charges or convictions. You agree right?

• 206 Chuck // Jan 16, 2009 at 2:42 AM

  No I do not agree, they did riot and so we (you) will never know what would have happened had the riot not occurred. You apparently feel that the only reason that the officers were sanctioned is because of the riot. The only thing I can agree on right now is you are bound and determined to make a racial issue out of it. (possibly anything) Because of your determination I sure you are only interested in furthering the very feelings that you are seeminly against.

• 207 Chuck // Jan 16, 2009 at 2:52 AM

  Hey JEFF R. I don’t know where you live but I live in Alaska and we have about the most ethnically diverse population in the nation! Chinese, Russian, Korean, Inuit, Indian, Anglo, Mexican, Polish, Black, African, besides that as I noted previously citizens of Alaska may carry a firearm open or concealed our LEO’s treat us with a little more respect.

• 208 TwoSocks // Jan 16, 2009 at 7:36 AM

  Chuck,
  I have to admit. I am cynical of cops. I probably will always be cynical, because of what happened to me and my family. I don’t think that all cops are bad just most of them at least down here in the south. The way you describe Alaska sounds like heaven. We’re all human beings. How much spitting and jeering can a good officer take before he reaches that last straw? I just see them as walking timebombs waiting to go off. Which reminds me. Has everyone here seen “Anger Management”? I wonder if a program exist that is anything like this for cops?

  I am very sensitive anytime a cop takes a human life whether deserved or not. In the back of my mind, I always think that they could have done more to deeescalate the situation and save this person’s life. Cops just seem quick on the draw especially if they are racially profiling.

• 209 TwoSocks // Jan 16, 2009 at 8:51 AM

  Gotta say something wrote,
  “Johannes is not a racist idot who became a cop so he could get a gun and kill someone.

  I knew him when I was in grade school up until college. He was bright and mild mannered.

  Please don’t wish violence upon Johannes because I know he is tormented inside.”

  “Gotta say something” you make it sound like he was an honorable, respectful, and a repentant man. If this is indeed the case, why didn’t he cooperate with Internal Affairs? Why did he try to make a run for it? He could have easily gotten police protection for his family. Why didn’t he make a heart-felt apology to Grant’s family? None of his actions up to this point indicate a man of honor.

• 210 Jeff R. // Jan 16, 2009 at 9:21 AM

  Chuck,
  that maybe true but Sarah Palin doesn’t represent it very well.

  alaska demographics:
  3% black
  4.6% asian
  4% Latino
  15% american indian

  the smallest percentage is black and combined blk,asian,latino makes up 11.6%. The lowest combined total of any state.

  Meaning Sarah Palin had the ability to live in many areas where there was no diversity at all.

  But thats beside the point, as far as rioting effecting the outcome.
  They didn’t charge the officer who tazered the handcuffed black man that was too disoriented to walk after the 4th tazer shot in 1 hr. who started bleeding from the mouth after the 6th tazer shot. who died after the 9th. NO RIOT NO CHARGE.

  the officers who shot Sean Belle are still free and did not even get suspended until they marched in NY. NO RIOT NO CHARGE.

  The officer who beat the mentally handicap boy at the gas station is at work right now. NO RIOT NO CHARGE.

  Jena 6 was strait up wrong and the court system in that town was making public statement about how they were gonna be much more severe to blacks than whites if they made a big deal out of the already racist system. NO RIOT NO CHARGE.
  When they did riot and the media flooded the city they gave all but one of the boys dismissed charges.
  The prosecutor admitted to being racist and went to the school to assemble the black students to tell them that, ” he could take their life away with his pen…” and in the same speech said that,” white students were given lenient treatment because they contribute more to society.” That prosecutor is also at work today.

  Its not that i think that people need to riot to get justice but when you look at the situations in which there were riots and there were not it seems that the rule is NO RIOT NO CHARGE.

  I hate even talking about the Rodney ‘dumb ass’ King incident but since its been put as a question to me i will say this.
  If you walk up to a officer and say hi and he hits you you will walk away that 1st time.
  If you approach another man without color and he hits you you are angry and you will still try to walk away.
  After it happens in most situation dealing with whites then you start to believe that whites want to hit you most of the time. Then comes the one that break the straw and crosses a line.
  At that point there are no good and bad white people because the actions of the whites are so common and wide spread thats when you just SNAP.
  at that point there is no need to distinguish who is a fair white or who is the unfair white. All whites are bad and regardless of social belief or fairness there is no desire to believe any different. Kill white is now running rapidly thru the city.

  Why didn’t those crooked officers think about the over-all marketing that was going on. They kept doing things to poor people in la who once again DIDN’T KNOW THEIR RIGHTS and had those rights systematic circumvented at every turn y LA cops.

  New York is on the same path. Cops are violating the rights of the people they perceive to be poor or uneducated. If it doesn’t stop they will have a much worse riot than LA.

  thats my last comment about a Rodney ” I’m so stupid” King.

• 211 Mike // Jan 16, 2009 at 1:23 PM

  Jeff R,

  I am white and I think the Kennedy coverup is appalling. Maybe moreso than King, OJ, or the BART shooting. The notion that money and power can buy your way out of justice is wrong, no matter what color, religion, or gender you are.

  I do agree with TwoSocks that police should be held to a higher standard. They are entrusted with great power and to abuse that power is a slap in the face to those who give it. But I think one thing that people lose sight of is that cops are human. They are normal people. Many people have this idea (maybe subconsciously) that cops are somehow “super people” and never do anything “bad” and when they turn out to be just like everyone else, a piece of people’s fictional world crumbles. Some cops drink and drive, some cops use drugs, some cops hit their wives. You know why? They are human, just like you and me. I’m not saying that they are allowed to do those things, just like I don’t think anyone is allowed. But if they do it (and it really is only a few), it shouldn’t be the shock of the century. They are human. Their job, movies, and TV have made them out to be extra special. In reality, they are just “cleaner than most” people who usually try to do a decent job each day. We don’t flip out when a Burger King worker kills his neighbor, but if a cop gets a DUI, it’s a news story.

  I’d just like to say that for all of you who hate police, think about who they are before you chose to hate them. They are normal people with lives like you and families like you. If you hate cops, then you probably have issues in your life that have caused you to have dealings with them. Yes, they arrest people. People who do illegal things. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

• 212 TwoSocks // Jan 16, 2009 at 3:19 PM

  Mike wrote,
  “They are normal people with lives like you and families like you. If you hate cops, then you probably have issues in your life that have caused you to have dealings with them. Yes, they arrest people. People who do illegal things. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.”

  Mike, first you need to consider your audience and who you are dealing with before you lay some spill on them. Your speech is great for a group of upper class bleeding-heart liberal college kids that have never experienced being mistreated by cops.

  I would guess that the majority of the people blogging here have been mistreated horribly by the police. You can’t expect someone like me, my family, Oscar’s family, Carlos, or others to suddenly drop their issues with cops and embrace them. We are not disgruntled, because the police caught us doing a crime and we went to jail. We are disgruntled, because we were seriously illegally violated by rogue cops. Look I can’t speak for everyone else, but I will tell you flat out right now that you are wasting your time with me.

  You say that they are normal people. Well I say that law enforcement is a magnet for bullies and people with inferiority complexes that happen to weasel their way past the psycological entrance screening exam. I personally happen to know of a few officers that were weak, picked on, and runts in school, and later decided to work out with weights and become a cop.

  I understand that cops make mistakes, but the problem is much larger than a few bad cops. It’s the system that bends over backwards to downplay their crimes and keep them out of jail when they screw up.

• 213 Chuck // Jan 16, 2009 at 3:31 PM

  Two Socks first of all Police officers should never be spit on, jeered, or intentionally disobeyed. They are an enforcement organization and your civic reponsibility is to ber respectful of that duty. Individual LEO may behave poorly but that does not relieve your of your responsibility to be respectful. They are NOT reponsible to deescalate your (anyone’s)behavior.

  Jeff, youre right it is beside the point because the point is that we are all Americans and the slice of races in the country really mean nothing . Laws and social expectations apply to Americans. It doesnt matter at all whether you feel slighted as a EuroLatinoPolishBlackman you are really an American and the slices of a persons heritage matter only within the family group and historians. Once you arrive here and take the oath of citizenship you become American. Yes when someone walks up to you and punches you in the face you walk away, you do that again and again when it happens. The minute you “snap” and hit them you are guilty of assault as well and the law does not differentiate the penalty based on the story, you both are equally guilty of assault. The circumstances do not matter. If I kept getting punched in the face I certainly would find another place to go and hangout. And if KILL WHITEY becomes the call of the day then those who are voicing KILL WHITEY need to be rounded up and dealt with for the good of the greater general public at large who, all whether punchers or not deserve the public peace. The problem with people these days seems to be that everyone thinks what they think is the way it should be, well that’s just selfish ignorance, it has nothing to do with the individual it is the general population at large that must be served. That’s how California got to be the land of fruits and nuts, everyone thinks they should have thier little thought converted to everyone else, and so you have what you do now there you have so many little things passed into law that the state is broke as a vagrant and cannot even afford to run the goverment, not to mention the taxes . Secondly people these days refuse to take responsibility for thier actions, we have no sense of personal responsibility, its always someone else’s fault or sombody else should have sone something to save me from doing this or that. Unfortunately we have become a society that thinks that the way of the world is instant gratification. So we have the situation we have today, people living beyond thier means charging thier life to credit cards, not being able to do the simple math to see if they can afford that mortgage, our eyes just see the shiny new house or shiny new car our schools fail to educate our children in the simplest of required skills, how to balance a checkbook, make a budget, how to save money. Unfortunately the peolle who do not have those skills are going to have to be rescued from themselves by the goverment. The real sadf part is that those responsible people are going to get shafted by having to pay for the idiots as well, agin the general public at large is what matters. The UAW has for years been getting workers paid for menial minimum wage tasks be cause we think that we al DESERVE to have 2 cars,a dvd, huge t.v., RV, etc.. No you only deserve those things if you know how to budget and SAVE for them. I personally think that the auto companies should be allowed to fail, merge or whatever. However I also realize that it is not good for the general public at large for that to happen.

  As a side note I think that the goverment should give me a voucher for a new car! I can then present that to the auto manufactures and get an auto. The company would be getting autos made and it would take years to make all those autos, and if the goverment required the auto makers to produce a fuel and pollution efficient auto then again the general population at large would benefit getting all the old polluting gas guzzlers off the road. Seems like a good plan to me

  I know that it took my parents 52 years together to get thier home, cars, and anything else they wanted they saved to get it. And like my parents, nobody can take anything away from me, as I have paid for it all. so in summary each and every person is responsible for thier actions and how they affect the general public at large. It is your responsibility as a citizen of this republic to defer to what is best for the general public at large. That’s why we vote, and that’s why the majority voice speaks. Ther has been progress in changing the social fabric of this nation and it will continue to change, as the generations pass and new generations vote, the change will occur but like saving for something you want you have to have patience as the tide turns because instant gratification in life does not produce anything at all but difficulty and more selfishness. This nation is in for trouble when people learn they can vote themselves a rebate or relief for thier poor judgement then we are done as a nation. We already have survived longer than any other goverment form of a similar type, but we are fast headed down the socialist road. But once again the gereater general public will take us there.

• 214 Mike // Jan 16, 2009 at 3:38 PM

  TwoSocks,

  It is not my sole analysis. The video also doesn’t capture the first 3 minutes of the encounter. Too bad Holliday wasn’t out there sooner with that thing. That’s like watching them execute Manson and saying, “why did they kill that poor man”. You need context before forming an opinion. Three UNDISPUTABLE FACTS that the officers knew at the time were that he was a parolee, he was heavily intoxicated (.19), and he was very large (250lb). Based on those three alone, any non-compliance warranted their use of tazers. The first failed to knock him down. The second knocked him down but he got right back up. That is when the assumption was made that he was on PCP. That was an incorrect assumption, but in the moment, when a guy fights through 2 tazings (the wonder tool) and comes at you, think about what you’d do. Anyway, I don’t think we need to belabor Rodney. Were(are) those cops racist? Maybe, who knows. But the beating itself was not indicative of racism, more like, “holy crap, this guy can’t be stopped.”

  I just re-watched the video. The officers certainly needed to show more restraint. That is what most of us “think” we would have done. When a guy is on the ground, barely moving, it’s time to stop swinging for a moment and re-assess the situation. But we also can’t be in someone else’s shoes. It’s hard to judge what they were thinking when previous attempts at subduing him were unsuccessful.

• 215 Mike // Jan 16, 2009 at 3:57 PM

  TwoSocks,

  I don’t know what part of the country you live in, but most of California is very PC and officers are almost held to a ridiculous standard when dealing with the public. If you or others have been mistreated, that is certainly uncalled for. But here, most cops are required to be “courteous” even when dealing with the vile. To be a female officer and be called “c*nt” by some POS and then be expected to say please and thank you to that garbage is almost too much. I understand the need for professionalism, but if you’re picking up trash, you’re going to get dirty.

  That said, I have heard about the good ‘ol boys who still exist throughout the midwest in hick towns. But that certainly isn’t representative of “cops” in general. Most people and therefore cops, live on the coasts, and most coastal states are extremely liberal and overly protective of people’s rights and even their “feelings”.

• 216 Carlos Miller // Jan 16, 2009 at 4:02 PM

  I live in a city about as coastal as you can get. And although it is very southern in geography, it it not in culture.

  But we got some of the most abusive cops in the country down here in Miami.

• 217 Chuck // Jan 16, 2009 at 4:37 PM

  Two socks, on the tazer x 6 issue, I long ago was an investigator for a private corporation and during a street survival class we were presented with the case of a man on PCP who threatened LEO’s with a weapon, and it took 39 hits from several officers 9mm’s to bring him down, he even fired and reloaded during this. so you have to know all the circumstances before you make a judgement, alcohol cuases loss of judgement and inhibition, and drugs can cause the physical and emotional stae of invincibiltiy.

• 218 Jeff R. // Jan 16, 2009 at 7:03 PM

  Chuck we are not far off in views.

  people especially younger people (sub 30) need to wake up. There is a culture that glamorizes thug life and they love it.
  They sag their pants, get tattoos, say things like screet, fidna, Bo and skrimps, some refer in public, carry guns like its an iPod or a new style jean. These same Amos and Andy ass dummies wonder why the cops are messing with them while they roll a blunt in the car. Or brandish a gun in a picture with their friends.
  If i were a cop i would probably be considered a racial profiler or a style profiler. The first white boy i see acting like he strait outta Compton with rims i would pull his ass and look for anything that could remind me of a pill, powder, or pot. Its an easy target. They dress like idiots, talk like idiots, so to me it has to be a duck. lol

  IF YOU DRESS AND ACT LIKE AND IDIOT THEN YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT YOU GET AND NOBODY CAUSED IT BUT YOU AND YOUR DECISION.

  in that way i understand the cops. but to get to MIKES point about them being human. Mike you are correct they are humans who are in a job that makes them think they are not. They have it hard because they have a lot of people who don’t respect anyone other than another cop.

  My brother is a cop and before he was he would listen to people with the expectation of that person being a good human. Now, he is skeptical of any and everything said. We use to hangout 3x a month and he would come to my house 2ics at least. The job has changed him.

  I don’t know why cops get less mental evaluations than guys on the oil rigs or soldier at sea. A good cop doesn’t go bad overnight. If the cops had mental evaluations quarterly, then i think things would be better and cops would strangle, suffocate, beat, shoot, or tazer people as often. They could catch it.

  I don’t have a record other than 3 speeding tickets and a fight with my brother as a ivy leaguer. Its true ivy leaguers do have a different set of laws they don’t have to follow. IT’s A MONEY and perception THING.

  America is the most racist place that they call free. Its a fact and no matter how many folks like Chuck and Mike exsist there are folks who are extreme right republican or extremely isolated and uneducated that will never see blacks as equal or upstanding.

  My girlfriend is i have had at least 20 girlfriends other than 7 black ladies my dating represents 9 countries. My current lady is Korean (probably the one to marry) She has been in america for 22 months. She has told me at least 50x that she thinks that blacks do not get treated fairly and people have the wrong idea about it. She also thinks that republican mean you kinda don’t like other races. She had that epiphany watching the republican nation convention.

  i met her 3 months after she arrived in america and the first intimate question she asked about race was. Why do whites treat other races like they are stupid?

  How did she get that impression if America doesn’t show it?

  ONE MORE THING:

  if 2 people call me an idiot then i dont care. If 10 people do it then i will say they just dont understand me. If thousand say it. IT MUST BE TRUE.

  Tens of Millions say that American Whites are extremely racial and that they have a superiority complex.
  tens of millions say this.

  I know that it is just a subset of whites now maybe 35% but thats a new number when bush 43 was there that number was way way higher. So, its up to whites to teach other not as open-minded whites that America is 62% people of color and that number will be higher every year. Until every one is the same.

• 219 TwoSocks // Jan 16, 2009 at 7:31 PM

  “I long ago was an investigator for a private corporation and during a street survival class we were presented with the case of a man on PCP who threatened LEO’s with a weapon, and it took 39 hits from several officers 9mm’s to bring him down, he even fired and reloaded during this. so you have to know all the circumstances before you make a judgement, alcohol cuases loss of judgement and inhibition, and drugs can cause the physical and emotional stae of invincibiltiy.”

  Chuck, this example raises more questions than it answered. One well placed shot to the head would have instantly brought the man down dead, and it wouldn’t matter what kind of drugs he was on or how invincible he felt. You can’t defy the laws of physics no matter how hard you try. What were these officers doing? Were they trying to see how many bullets this guy could take in the legs, arms, and non vital areas before he collasped? He should have started bleeding to death from the first hit to the torso. How could he have stayed conscious long enough to get another 38 more bullets into him?

• 220 Chuck // Jan 16, 2009 at 7:36 PM

  Preface for the remarks; I am 51 my wife is 39 I grew up in the midwest, she grew up in California, Africa, and Central America as her parents were career State Department officers.

  She threw up in my face one time about the horrible history of T.V (she does not watch television) the show Archie Bunker and how racist it was.

  I was watching Public Television station the other night and I heard something interesting. The program was about the history of comedy. They were moving through the years and they came to the Archie Bunker Show. I was surprised when Norman Lear the writer and producer said, that they knew they were broaching untested ground and so they figured if they were in for a penny they were in for a pound (if you make fun of one group you make fun of them all). He was stunned when he found that they started to recieve 5,000 or so letters a week and they almost all related that the writer had been watching the show and when they looked in the mirror to shave they found they did not like what they saw there!! Its interesting that this had the effect it did on people. and again that is changing but like evolution it is slow and changes a little from generation to generation. I personally could care less what some other person has to say to me. I have a t-shirt that reads;

  —The more of my faults you learn to overlook then the less of them you will have to forgive.

  And once again openminded or not, person of color or not. we are all Americans, the sooner people realize this and act like an Anmerican and Speak American there will continue to be friction from those who have their heels dug in refusing to become American.

  In the dark of my home and property at night I will really never be able to see your skin color or your ethnic heritage until I turn on the light to see your dead ass on the floor of my home.

  The greatest thing about America (to quote a movie I like) is that America is advanced citizenship, you have to want it, its not easy. I would stand and listen to you in public on a box speaking at the top of your voice that which I would oppose at the top of mine, and defend your right to do that.

• 221 TwoSocks // Jan 16, 2009 at 7:43 PM

  Jeff R,
  You have a valid point on how these younger people are acting and thus causing alot of their own problems.

  I have an answer … education … education .. education. I can’t stress it enough. It is the most important decision that a young person will ever make in his lifetime period.

• 222 Mike // Jan 16, 2009 at 7:49 PM

  TwoSocks,

  I have found you to be very intelligent in your responses on this blog, however your latest regarding “one to the head” does not fall in line with the rest. Movies make cops out to be super-snipers and bad guys die instantly when hit with any bullet (unless it’s the arch enemy of the protagonist). Cops do not shoot for the head. The head is a small target. Cops aim for center of mass. That is mid torso. You can’t say in one post how cops are borderline retarded, but then you expect them to be super snipers with a handgun. Do you have any firearm experience? Hitting the head with real adrenaline going is near impossible from anything further than a few yards. That’s like the people who say, “why didn’t the cop shoot him in the leg instead of kill him?” Well, for one, they are taught to aim for center of mass and two cops only shoot to kill. There is no such thing as “shoot to wound”. There is no such thing as “shoot the gun out of their hand”. That is movie BS. Only a handful of real life snipers have ever taken a “shoot the gun shot” in a hostage situation because it’s not very likely that they’ll hit it (moving target, wind, adrenaline) and a miss could mean dead hostages. When you empty a magazine into a threat, it’s shoot to kill and you aren’t aiming for the head. It’s “aim for that center of that blob in front of me” because that’s what adrenaline and a real life situation looks like.

  This was not meant to put you down in any way. Only to highlight how the view you have, which is shared by 95% of America, is so skewed from reality.

  Please continue the discussion as I have begun to look forward to your usually very intelligent and articulate responses.

  (I am not talking out of my ass on this one. Both myself and my brother are officers and I have a little more real life info on the subject.)

• 223 Chuck // Jan 16, 2009 at 8:03 PM

  Something I read about six months ago;

  About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:

  ‘A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.’

  ‘A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.’

  ‘From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.’

  ‘The average age of the world’s greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years’

  ‘During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:

  1. from bondage to spiritual faith;

  2. from spiritual faith to great courage;

  3. from courage to liberty;

  4. from liberty to abundance;

  5. from abundance to complacency;

  6. from complacency to apathy;

  7. from apathy to dependence;

  8. from dependence back into bondage’

  Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline UniversitySchool of Law, St. Paul , Minnesota , points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000 Presidential election:

  Number of States won by: Democrats: 19 Republicans: 29

  Square miles of land won by: Democrats: 580,000 Republicans: 2,427,000

  Population of counties won by: Democrats: 127 million Republicans: 143 million

  Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Democrats: 13.2 Republicans: 2.1

  Professor Olson adds: ‘In aggregate, the map of the territory Republican won was mostly the land owned by the taxpaying citizens of this great country. Democrat territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off various forms of government welfare…’ Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the ‘complacency and apathy’ phase of Professor Tyler’s definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation’s population already ;having reached the ‘governmental dependency’ phase.

• 224 Carlos Miller // Jan 16, 2009 at 8:18 PM

  Chuck,

  Professor Olson forgot to factor in the education and income level of democratic urban areas compared to republican rural areas..

• 225 Jeff R. // Jan 16, 2009 at 9:06 PM

  Chuck no election won by george bush was legal regardless of what they say no one thinks that he DID NOT cheat.

  But i also read that before communism there is democracy. Russia wasn’t always a communist country.

  We just watched the complacency part for 8 years.

• 226 Chuck // Jan 16, 2009 at 9:30 PM

  carlos – education and desire will determine an individuals sucess, nothing else. please don’t act like rural republican america is any more educated, they just get to go to work earlier (14 or so) and education is by the sweat of the brow, they might if anything have a better understanding of the work it takes to make it in the world, the urban democrats have mearly traded hard work for sittin on the couch checks.

  To me it doesn’t matter what the debate continues to be its past history and those who live in the past are doomed to relive it. I am neither republican nre a democrat, what this country needs is a second and even a third party to choose from. Both the main stream partie have thier many faults.

  Also let’s not be confused this country is not a democracy it is a republic (a form of democratic republic maybe). If it was a democracy then the electoral college would not exist, and the popular vote would tell the tale.

• 227 Carlos Miller // Jan 16, 2009 at 9:37 PM

  Chuck,

  What I was saying is that if you’re going to break the country down into republican vs democrat and rural vs urban, it should be pointed out that there is a higher income level as well as a higher education level in the urban areas.

  Surely that should have been factored into Professor Olson’s observations.

  Because the way it is now, it is an attempt to make the rural republicans seem superior to the urban democrats.

• 228 Chuck // Jan 16, 2009 at 9:49 PM

  well I see your point but a college or other advance degree does not mean that you actually have intelligence just that you can take a test. The other thing to remember is that without regard to demographics is that there are children born everyday to be streetsweepers and nothing you do is going to change that just look to the failure of NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND to demonstrate that.

  just plain rural folks probaly have a better handle on how and are harder working to get where they want to be. There is a different kind of viewpoint born of that.

• 229 Carlos Miller // Jan 16, 2009 at 10:13 PM

  Mike,

  As an officer, are you surprised by this strong anti-police sentiment that has risen on the internet since the BART shooting?

  Do you really believe all those people are voicing these sentiments because they have done illegal things and been arrested for them in the past?

  And do you really believe if it wasn’t for the video that Mehserle would have resigned?

  This is not the first video that has emerged that has shown a clear abuse of authority, although it is the first to show a murder. And yes, it is a murder when you shoot somebody in the back who is unarmed and being restrained by your colleague.

  That shooting scares the hell out of me because I was in that same position when I got arrested for taking photos of cops down in Miami.

  I wasn’t fighting yet they threatened to tase me. And they also bashed my head into the pavement, even after I was arrested.
  And even after I was handcuffed, one cop twisted my hand backwards until I screamed out in pain.

  I am not a criminal. And I was never a physical threat to them. I was carrying two huge cameras so my concern was I didn’t want to break them.

  And if they wanted to arrest me, all they had to do was tell me to place my hands behind my back. I would have done just that because the last thing I want to do is get into a physical altercation with five cops.

  But they lost their temper so they made sure they were going to hurt me while handcuffing me.

  And although it pisses me off, I look at that video and I count my lucky stars that I did not get shot and killed.

  If it wasn’t for that video, it would have been just another “he reached for my weapon so I had shoot him” justification.

  And that could have been me except there would have been no video.

  And although I might be a stubborn sonofabitch, I am not a criminal. So it pisses me off that I was treated like one because even they knew I wasn’t a criminal.

  It was never a question of probable cause that I was up to no good. It was very clear that I was doing my job as a journalist.

  But those officers figured they would teach me a lesson. What took a couple of hours out of their shift ended up leaving nine misdemeanors on my permanent record, which is why I decided to fight it even though I was a freelancer at the time and had no giant newspaper backing me up.

  And two years later, I am still fighting a resisting arrest without violence conviction. I am thousands of dollars in debt. My health has been greatly affected by this. Not to mention my professional reputation.

  But I’m lucky because I did not get killed.

  And you know what’s sad is that many people like me who are not criminals actually fear the police more than we fear criminals.

  Because we know criminals might get caught and serve time but we know that unless you have a video, the officer will always get away with his crimes.

  And I am not a cop hater. I covered law enforcement for many years as a newspaper reporter, and I’ve had many friends who were officers, all the way up to the assistant chief in Phoenix a few years back.

  And since my arrest, many officers have written to me or told me in person that the officers who arrested me were completely out of line.

  But even then, if I’m out photographing and I see cops, I get tense and it shouldn’t be that way.

• 230 Carlos Miller // Jan 16, 2009 at 10:25 PM

  Chuck,

  I think one problem in your analysis is that you keep talking about two Americas; those simple, good-hearted rural folks and that sinister, urban crowd.

  That was Sarah Palin’s MO and look where it got her. Nowhere.

  The truth is, we are one country. Some might be rural and some might be urban, but there are plenty of liberals in rural America and there are plenty of conservatives in urban America.

  Some people prefer the city and some the country. I personally prefer the city but I can understand how some people prefer the country.

  I think it’s a mistake to judge a person’s moral values by where they prefer to live.

• 231 TwoSocks // Jan 16, 2009 at 11:04 PM

  Hi Mike,
  Thanks for the response. I am a life member to NRA. In the past, I used to shoot alot. I own many firearms from revolvers, automatics, shotguns, semi-automatic rifles, and bolt-action rifles. I even used to reload my own ammunition. Now, I don’t have the time or money to pursue this hobby anymore, because I am a proud father.

  Most lethal police gunshots occur at around the 6 to 8 foot range. Once a perp enters this range with a cop his life expectancy diminishes exponentially. If you don’t believe this statistic, I can try to locate a link for you if you like. In the example you gave, you didn’t specify a range. I would imagine that in this scenario you have several cops behind a crude barrier of some sort trying to shoot this perp at some distance say less than 20 feet right? Hell, I don’t know. I do know that cops are trained to double-tap a perp as close to the heart as possible, and they do not shoot to wound. That would only bring on lawsuits. What I don’t understand is how these cops couldn’t make a lethal shot with the first couple of rounds?

• 232 TwoSocks // Jan 16, 2009 at 11:30 PM

  Chuck wrote,
  “well I see your point but a college or other advance degree does not mean that you actually have intelligence just that you can take a test. ”

  Come on Chuck! Education is *THE* answer. We all know it. Once you play the bullshit game and get that college degree, it opens many doors of opportunity that otherwise would not be available. Answer this one for me? Where do most crimes and riots occur? Low income and low educated neighborhoods right?

• 233 TwoSocks // Jan 17, 2009 at 12:18 AM

  “Individual LEO may behave poorly but that does not relieve your of your responsibility to be respectful. They are NOT reponsible to deescalate your (anyone’s)behavior.”

  I agree that people should treat *GOOD* cops with respect. However, alot of them don’t, and I don’t believe that they deserve a death sentence because of it.

  You are wrong, cops are expected to de-escalate a situation, because they have sworn to protect and uphold the law.

• 234 Chuck // Jan 17, 2009 at 2:08 AM

  Two socks, once they have you isolated there is no value to deescalating you because the more you rant and rave the deeper you dig your own hole.

  Also in my tears of working with both the higher and middle educated folks I have found many times over that the educated degreed people are more of aburden from the aspect that they just don’t get it. Many times I have found that I had to explain to someone why they as the degreed person did not get promoted because they cannot perform as well as the person with a high school education.

  Carlos, I don’t judge anyone by where they live I am speaking from my experience of having lived in both enviroments, I do prfer the rural to the urban. If you like the urban then please live there as it leaves more room for me where I live. (currently population density is 1.2 persons per square mile), how close does your neighbor’s house sit to yours? The perfect place where I prefer to live is when you walk out to the mailbox and your neighbor is close enough to wave to but not close enough to have to talk unless you walk closer to them. Everyone on my street owns between 5 and 40 acres. Mine is 5 acres of birch and spruce and my house sits back 380 ft from the road obscured by trees.

  And by all means we are all happy to have Sarah back up here, she has more class than anyone I have seen in a long time, what people down in the lower 48 don’t get is that we love our life up here and we can’t think of a better place to live. No state tax, no city tax, and no sales tax in most all of Alaska, and best yet we all (every man woman and child get a check every year as our part of all the unspent tax revenue taken in by the state every single year. $3,269.00 last year. Just think if you had a family of 6 that’s $19,269.00 for the family last year. Sure beats paying the state every year. Our lawmakers truly have looked to their responsibility to the citizenry, this money cannot be spent by the legislature and does indeed take a vote of the people to change any of the terms. People up here have been getting these annual check since the 1970′s and as the pricipal grows so do the dividend checks (it known as the Alaska Permanent fund Dividend). I am not sure of the amount but the funds value is in the 10′s of billions of dollars, the only way for the legislature to end it is to get us to vote on it and then they have to divide up the money among all the citizens it cannot be used for any goverment spending. but I digress…

  One more thing, if you shoot to wound then there are two stories to be told, if you point a gun at me you are going to die because my story is the only one that will be told. Makes everything nice and tidy. We had a case up here awhile ago where a church had been burglerized several times and the minister installed an alarm that rang at his house, it rang one night and he called the state troopers and left his home drove to the church, entered and found two adult males (in thier 20′s) in the church. He told them to stand still and they turned to run at which time they both got shot dead as they ran (in the back). He stood trial and was found not guilty as the actors were found to have no expectation of saftey in the commision of a crime. A clearer message could not have been sent to the bad guys if you choose to steal be prepared to pay the ultimate price for your actions.

• 235 Chuck // Jan 17, 2009 at 2:11 AM

  not to mention the it cleanses the gene pool.

• 236 Chuck // Jan 17, 2009 at 2:14 AM

  I did find it finally the current amount of the fund is $28,350,700,000.00 billion dollars for a total in 2008 of 610,768 citizens of the state.

• 237 Carlos Miller // Jan 17, 2009 at 2:23 AM

  So everybody get’s a government check, eh? It’s a good thing socialism hasn’t worked its way up there yet. Wait a minute.

  Wanna hear about my neighbors? They’re close enough where I can steal their wi-fi. Not that I have to because I have regular cable internet but on those times I want to use my laptop as well as my desktop, I just fire it up and there will be somebody’s wireless account, which gives me internet access.

  I have neighbors on top of me, below me, next to me on both sides and across the hall from me. I hardly know them, rarely see them, sometimes hear them and occasionally make small talk with them.

  When I step out of my building, I have a Cuban restaurant next door that is open until 3 a.m. I also have a Winn Dixie across the street, I would prefer Publix, but I can still buy groceries without stepping into my car.

  I have a bunch of other restaurants within walking distance as well, including an all-night Greek joint that makes the best steak subs and garlic rolls.

  I can take a bus directly from the front of my building to downtown Miami, but I drive so am within a short driving distance of the airport, downtown and the beaches.

  I can fly out of this country at an hour’s notice if I had to.

  That is what I like. I used to live in rural New Mexico and I had to drive to another state to catch a plane. That can get old.

• 238 Chuck // Jan 17, 2009 at 3:34 AM

  Two socks since you are an member of the NRA you should enjoy this;

  If guns kill people

  then

  pencils miss spel words,

  cars make drivers drunk,

  spoons made Rosie O’Donnal fat.

• 239 Jeff R. // Jan 17, 2009 at 9:23 AM

  “”"”Do you really believe all those people are voicing these sentiments because they have done illegal things and been arrested for them in the past?”"”"”"

  If you are a cop this is a dangerous thought to have. This is like saying that the people who complain are criminals.
  How could a cop respect some else’s view if they already have one to give them?
  How can a cop be impartial if they arrive on a scene and arrest the first person to have decent because they thing that they must have been arrested before?
  Then they treat the person like a criminal and not a citizen.

  >>>He told them to stand still and they turned to run at which time they both got shot dead as they ran (in the back). He stood trial and was found not guilty as the actors were found to have no expectation of saftey in the commision of a crime. A clearer message could not have been sent to the bad guys if you choose to steal be prepared to pay the ultimate price for your actions.<<<

  The preacher was white definitely. No black preacher could have accomplished this. If you say he is not then i would ask you to prove it with actual data and a pic.

  By the way there is 4 Americas:
  Liberal whites America
  Conservative whites America
  Black & Latinos America
  Asian America

  Black & Latinos America
  is where laws are disregarded and policies are changed to make things more difficult. Its where you ant be respected for your skill or have the most difficult time getting the door to use your skill………………

  Asian America
  this is where people think that you are mathematically and scientifically skilled. This where people put you under scrutiny and make things happen slower because they believe you are not aggressive. They believe that you have been living in some overly oppressive country and you are the way you are because you are not use to freedom………….

  Liberal whites America
  Majority in the metropolitan areas in america or medium sized cities. This where the term cool ass white-boy comes from. College educated with a 50k plus job out of college. Environmentalist and believer in fairness for all. Tolerance for different lifestyles and wants to be seen as a savior of an average joe. Some rich some middle class………

  Conservative whites America
  This in its not so extreme to extreme form is a separatist group of people who believe that america is for rich white people. Its the party of lies and cover ups. Eric Cantour claiming he isn’t gay when it is painfully obvious he is. Bernie Madelnoff types who know that the law will never really apply to him. They are the greedy and also the most terrified Americans there are. These people are dangerous. Unlike the moderate or center right republican.

  IT SHOULD BE ONE AMERICA BUT THE REPUBLICANS REFUSE THIS NOTION AS EVERYTHING BUT POSITIVE.

• 240 TwoSocks // Jan 17, 2009 at 9:52 AM

  Chuck,
  I like that one. I think you will like this one:

  FACTS TO PONDER:
  (A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is

  700,000.

  (B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians

  per year are

  120,000.

  (C) Accidental deaths per physician

  is

  0.171.

  Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of

  Health & Human Services.

  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  Now think about this:

  Guns:

  (A) The number of gun owners in the U.S.

  is

  80,000,000

  (YES, that’s 80 Million)

  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  (B) The number of accidental gun deaths

  per year, all age groups,

  is

  1,500.

  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  (C) The number of accidental deaths

  per gun owner

  is

  .000188.

  Statistics courtesy of FBI

  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  So, statistically, doctors are approximately

  9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  Remember, ‘Guns don’t kill people, doctors do..’

  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN,

  BUT

  ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.

  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  Please alert your friends

  to this alarming threat.

  We must ban doctors

  before this gets completely out of hand!!!!!

  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

  Out of concern for the public at large,

  I have withheld the statistics on

  lawyers

  for fear the shock would cause

  people to panic and seek medical attention

• 241 Jeff R. // Jan 17, 2009 at 10:31 AM

  THERE ARE MORE DEATHS BY GUN IN AMERICA THAN ANY OTHER 3 COUNTRIES COMBINED.

  Accidental, suicide, and homicide deaths by firearm

  Total accidental deaths per year (all causes), U.S….96,000

  Motor vehicle accidental deaths per year…43,000

  Fatal firearms accidents per year…1,100

  (The firearms accidents figure is an all-time low, even though the U.S. population is at an all-time high, and gun ownership is at an all-time high.)

  Fatal firearms accidents age 0-5…17

  Fatal firearms accidents age 5-14…121

  Fatal firearms accidents age 15-24…401

  Fraction of all Emergency Room visits that involve firearms accidents…0.2%

  [Centers for Disease Control, all figures]

  Accidents of all kinds (not just firearms) constitute the fifth leading cause of death in the United States, but the other four leading causes combined account for 16 times as many deaths as accidents. Accidents constitute a relatively small but easily prevented cause of death.

  Suicides by firearm, per year…18.000

  Murders by firearm, per year…14,000

  [Centers for Disease Control, both figures]

  ======================
  Germany – 381

  France – 255

  Canada – 165

  United Kingdom – 68

  Australia – 65

  Japan – 39

  United States – 11,127

• 242 Jeff R. // Jan 17, 2009 at 10:33 AM

  Germany – 381

  France – 255

  Canada – 165

  THIS DOESNT INCLUDE ACCIDENTS.

  United Kingdom – 68

  Australia – 65

  Japan – 39

  United States – 11,127

• 243 Chuck // Jan 17, 2009 at 12:42 PM

  but it still takes a person to pull the trigger, write the Rx etc….

• 244 Mike // Jan 19, 2009 at 12:17 PM

  Jeff R,

  Did you ever stop to think that gun violence is the result of the people and not the guns? America has more deaths by guns because of our culture. China doesn’t have Jay Z singing about how tight it is to blow a cap in someone’s ass or 50 Cent bragging about being shot 9 times. “Cool” people in America also happen to be the stupidest. Hell, half of them are criminals and glamorize that fact. Kids don’t have a chance. The “role models” today are the real problem, not guns. If Nelly came out with songs about how fun it is to stab to people with chopsticks, you bet your ass there’d be a rash of chopstick stabbings. So now we ban chopsticks?

• 245 leo (not as in A leo, it is my name) // Jan 19, 2009 at 1:30 PM

  Mike,

  i dont think your right, i dont feel like writing ALOT about this because it is off topic, but if you say RAP is the reason then why not say Movies are the reason? even before RAP there was gun violence, on a higher level than there is today! Because in the 80′s there was less people and more gun crimes, that means MORE people were using guns. Also movies portray guns almost as a miracle cure, you acn be any shape and size and strength and a gun will make all that irrelevant. trouble is it is easier for a thug or a douchebag to grab a gun and show his “might” than hand top hand combat, where he might get his ass kicked, not to mention alot more training needs to be done for hand to hand combat, rather than shooting a gun, the more clips the more chance you get the result you want. Dont blame rap/hiphop because then you have to blame movies/video games/archery/etc. It all comes down to the need to feel powerful, not that you are told to do it, but because it is the easy way out. Any moron can shoot a gun… as long as you have a hand with enough fingers to pull the trigger you can be bad ass.. rappers also make money, having a gun and shooting people doesnt always make money for you nor get you bitches, you have to look decent for that and have the ability to spend that money before being killed or arrested, so i dont think you can blame RAP for putting guns in otherwise non-gunwielding teens. I think it is more of how you are raised and taught about life, not just that guns are bad… but more of what kind of respect and understanding you have of the world. Whether you do drugs… and whether you can make decisions rather than say i dun give a shit, not to mention having something to live for. I think in the american society people are purposefully kept down for a reason, you cannot have the rich without the poor. So you need to keep a good amount of people down so that they can occupy the jobs that no mid to upper level worker wants to do. Just like credit card companies want to keep everyone in debt because then they make more money and have a steady flow of cash, and more chance that you will fall back on payments and they can make more money. Same with our society on gun users. ANYWAY the point of this whole thread is about a cop shooting an unarmed civilian in the back, NOT ABOUT RACE, NOT ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE… THAT IS WHAT THE COP SHOULD GO TO JAIL FOR, NOT THAT A WHITE MAN SHOT A BLACK MAN, if people keep saying that they are promoting racial discrimination and seperation.. i think we need to label all americans as americans, no more african american, no more spanish american… AN AMERICAN IS AN AMERICAN.. THAT IS ALL… i dont see why noone wants that, not even the blacks… its like they want their own designation… just seems to me like it keeps racial discrimination alive.

• 246 Mike // Jan 19, 2009 at 1:51 PM

  Leo,

  Hang on a sec. I didn’t say RAP was the problem. I said our culture was and used an example. Yes, movies, tv, and even RAP all shape carrying guns in a positive way. That – culture – is the problem, not the guns themselves or responsible gun owners who don’t “pack” because it’s “dope” (yeah, I went old school there).

  I am so glad that your HIGHLIGHTED message was reiterated. I said that from the start. This was about a man killing another man. Not a white guy killed a black guy. And yes, even as an officer, from what I see, I believe he should go to jail. Not necessarily for murder, but it’s AT LEAST involuntary manslaughter. Point is, he fucked up… time to pay the piper.

• 247 Carlos Miller // Jan 19, 2009 at 1:59 PM

  That was what I was trying to say in today’s post about the BART shooting.

  http://carlosmiller.com/2009/01/18/bart-cop-shooting-not-just-another-case-of-racial-profiling/

• 248 TwoSocks // Jan 19, 2009 at 5:22 PM

  I agree with Mike, and I’ll also add that I believe a lack of education is the single biggest reason. You won’t find too many people with bachelors or masters degrees part of any gangs promoting violence. I dare anyone to disagree with that statement.

• 249 Jeff R. // Jan 19, 2009 at 6:07 PM

  Mike, I agree with the chopstick stabbing. LMAO

  LEO, rap is one of the largest problems. the only thing that radio stations play is stuff that is negatively described. There is nothing good about JAIL, GUNS , HOES, 5K RIMS IN THE PROJECTS, HOODIES, SAGGING PANTS, SKEEZERS SHAKING ASS AND TRADING SEX FOR MONEY,.

  at the same token there is nothing good about CNN, FOX, MSNBC and other news corps using words like danger, threat, fleecing, safety concern, risk, peril, hazard, jeopardy, and words of that nature 27 times per hr. Its not good that they always refer to whites who commit crimes as mentally unstable and struggling with depression while refer to blacks as menacing, out of control or dangerous. They show black and latinos when they are talking about crime. Then they show some white person helping starving children Africa but never show the black person helping the poor uneducated rural poor white people.

  look at the top 50 serial killers in world history about 40 of the 50 are white. Thats no coincidence. But they don’t profile whites as serial killers like they profile blacks for looking like a rap song.

  Its not good for rock and rollers to glamorize devils, gargoyles, vampires, S&M, drugs, and evil imagery.

  Movies that are considered suspenseful or scary have become an exercise in who can show the most painful or gory deaths. They have tried to make torture in movies a sexual response. As if they don’t know that there are people who will try these things as a sexual adventure.

  Its not right for CBS , NBC, ABC, and others having shows called dirty, sexy, money / desperate housewives / Dexter / and show that glamorize infidelity, murder, greed, and negative life events. shallowness, and things of that nature.

  Its a very effective propaganda machine that started in our very brief history as a slaves. And i think that the only reason that there is so much separation between blk and wht is because they are perfect opposites on the color scale.
  So whites think that their culture is anything that backs don’t do and blacks think the exact opposite. Thats how simple the majorities minds are.

  Black are pissed off when a vidid situation of racism happens and the rest of the whites start trying to right it off as just a joking manor or that he/she was misread or even he didn’t mean it like that. Then a black man says the same type thing and they just stick with the fact that he meant it and he is racist.

  Bill oriely , Sean hanaday , morning joe, Glen beck, DL hugeley, David allen greer , tavis smiley, have all crossed racial lines to the point of ridiculous. Why Sean Hanaday and Bill Oriely is still on the air after they ejected Imus for saying something like “nappy headed hoes” its amazing.
  Bill O has said:
  he thought that black restaurants would be roudy and have poor service
  he said that we should LYNCH Michelle Obama, He said that all rappers are criminals and drug addicts.
  he said that blacks should be happy to get as far in life as they have
  \THIS LIST IS THE SECOND LONGEST LIST I HAVE SO I CANT LIST THEM ALL.
  SEAN HANADAY IS 1st RUSH Limbah is 3rd.

  I like IMUS and i don’t think he crossed the line if they didn’t.

  look how many folks have network backing to be ANTI BLACK.

  If Blacks would stop being overly sensitive and calling every statement they don’t like racism and whites would stop trying to justify statements and action we could get along a lot better.

  If a black video pro comes to a white guy to present his skills that he gained over 20 years and you dont even give him respect or act as if what he’s saying is valid. Then a white video pro comes and give you his 5year resume and you take extra time to look at what he is offering.

  THAT IS RACIST. Its called a black mans skill discount. People including blacks that automatically assume that a black business is less reputable than a white business.

  If you are white or black and you are prone to say that lady is fine to be black or she has a nice body good for a white girl. Could even come out as she is a fine ass black girl or that white girl has a body THAT IS RACIST.

  Thats just 2 of hundreds examples i have.

• 250 Mike // Jan 20, 2009 at 12:39 PM

  Jeff R,

  What is your take on BET, UNCF, FUBU, and other “if you aren’t black, you aren’t part of our club” organizations? Are they too not racist? I certainly don’t condone some of the lamentations of the “news” figures you mentioned, but does it not go both ways? Why is it ok for 90% of black people to assume white people are racist, but not ok for white people to assume a black person is a criminal? I certainly don’t condone either, but I think it demonstrates the stereotypes and assumptions that have plagued this country for years.

  Contrary to your earlier statement regarding serial killers, speaking as a white guy, I think most people think “white guy” when you hear “serial killer”, “child molester”, or even “creepy guy”. Look at the DC sniper(s). Everyone, including whites, were sure that it was some white hick. That is the real problem. People jump to conclusions without any proof based on preconceived notions about a particular race. But it happens both ways; and neither is right, not help to advance this nation forward.

• 251 Jeff R. // Jan 20, 2009 at 9:39 PM

  Why is it ok for 90% of black people to assume white people are racist, but not ok for white people to assume a black person is a criminal?

  glad you asked.

  In one word REPUTATION

  in more words:
  Blacks do have a reputation of committing crimes. But look at the crimes committed. NOT including rape, chester or killers. <(i come back to these.)

  black have a reputation of stealing. This is not exclusive to blacks but ask your self how that came about.

  Just after slavery was so call abolished black could not get work for pay most of them worked for room and board and they didn’t get paid every month. most of the thief in those times were blacks taking food. The white families were eating feast and would throw food away each night for the dogs. Blacks would wait until then to fight the dogs off and get the food. Often there was a commotion loud enough for the plantation owners to hear.

  So they would come out see the blacks taking the dogs food and then lynch them for thief. Some would take money and try to get away from the oppression. Some whites would get a negro to come with him to steal himself so that if he got caught he could say the negro did it.

  It became common practice to accuse a black of doing it to pardon some white person. Even some just white people despised the practice but would not speak against for safety reasons.
  White ladies would cheat on their husbands and then say that a black man raped her.

  In fact mostly anything that was found to be a character fault of a white was either covered up by this or said to be insanity.

  Blacks in later times would go to the police to report crimes of white men and be dead in days for uttering that a white man was flawed. Police to black folks were the scariest thing that could be walking behind you at night in an alley. Namely because they would be prosecuted whether they did it or not.

  In the 50′s large droves of white men would gather and speak of the negro as a cancer to society. KKK was as large as levi jeans in the south. There is footage today that we can find of white men in the LATE 70′s speak about blacks not being human. The brain is 25% smaller than a white mans…..etc

  In american history that constitutes a REPUTATION of extremely deep racism. I know that all whites are not racist but they have a reputation of being that way. Reputations can change if some one wants them too.

  The word NIGGA or NIGGER is use a lot in the black culture. Me excluded. But the reason whites cant say it is because there is no way we can tell when its used as a friendly thing or a disrespectful spit in the face. So we don’t want to have to figure it out and the white reputation says that its probably being used as mucus to the face.

  lets go back to find out who was the first to organize as a separatist group and then exercise that power. KKK
  Sure you had Marcus Garvvy but he started his because white would not allow blacks to become in america and he was taking them back to africa.
  KKK was controlling most southeastern cities. And had a good hold on the rest. So when the The Pan-African Movement, Martin Luther King Jr., Nation of Islam and the Black Panthers were reactionary. (Unlike the what whites did. )

  FUBU – i think its For U aBout U
  This is reactionary also since hillfinger preferred that blacks didn’t wear his tag.
  BET – Black Entertainment Television
  Reactionary because no network was portraying blacks in a correct fashion. Instead the networks were showing us in a way that would be acceptable to the white audience because white didn’t want to here that they were excluding us from jobs and that the law that they set up was EXTREMELY disproportionate to blacks. Nor did they want to here that there was a black kid out there who was the smartest man in his field or even close to measuring up to a really dumb white man. After all blacks brains were 25% smaller than a white man’s.

  YOU asked
  What is your take on BET, UNCF, FUBU, and other “if you aren’t black, you aren’t part of our club” organizations? Are they too not racist?

  NO, they are simply trying to find pride and a restoration of self worth base on what they had seen white men do. And some have become racist also but not FUBU or BET the other one i don’t know.

  Racism is not a reaction it is a choice of thinking where the only cause is the misunderstanding what is not familiar, and saying that you are superior to it.

• 252 Mike // Jan 21, 2009 at 12:43 PM

  Jeff R,

  An intelligent argument, but I have to disagree with your attitude of “it’s ok because white people oppressed us during slavery” or “it’s just a reaction to racist whites.” My original point was that racism goes both ways. Is the KKK racist? You bet your ass they are! They are horrible now and were 100 times worse in the past. But how does that justify the same attitude (as you call reactionary) because the KKK and slave owners existed? Two wrongs don’t make a right. Both are wrong. In the case of the KKK, extremely wrong. You could say the same about the Black Panthers. That attitude of “you wronged me, so now I will wrong you” is what has kept racism alive in today’s society.

  I’m glad you brought up the “N” word. Another example of extreme racism. Anytime anyone says “you can or can’t do this because of your race” is the very definition of racism! “It’s ok for me because I’m black, but because you’re white, you can’t.” How is that any different than “because I’m white, I can sit in the front of the bus and because you’re black, you can’t.” Hello! Both are EXTREMELY RACIST. Not to mention if it’s such a painful word, which I don’t doubt that it is, then how the hell can anyone who is black justify using it? It’s absurd!

  One note about FUBU. It’s For Us By Us. “Us” being black people (look it up if you think I’m wrong). Racist again. “For Us,” not for white people. Same thing for UNCF. BET is even worse is keeping racism alive because it’s sole statement is that black people are “different” and we don’t like your white cracker shows. How does anyone hope to achieve equality and get rid of racism when you openly say, “we’re different and starting our own club that’s for us?” By continuing to say “we’re different” is to continue having people treating other people differently. You KNOW that the NAACP would go nuts if WET came out. Hell, there’d probably be rioting in the streets as is the case for the BART shooting.

  You say reputation, I say stereotype, it’s the same thing. Some whites are racist, so now “all” are. Just like some blacks are criminals, so “all” are. You say that blacks don’t have a reputation for being criminals, but that is certainly not true. I can tell you from working the street, but you can just look at demographics of the justice system. There is no grand conspiracy to arrest black people or lock up black people. They’re in jail and prison because they broke the law and there is a higher percentage because more of them do it. Now I AM NOT saying that it is because they are black! Not in the least. I personally think it has more to do with socioeconomic status and there are far more poor black men than there are poor white. And usually when dealing with criminals, it is the poor ones, not the white or black ones, that are committing crimes. Most crimes are out of a perceived “necessity” and the people themselves aren’t “bad” per se. If you truly asked me who I thought were the “badest” race, I’d have to say latinos. In my experience, they commit the plurality of violent crimes. Latino gangs far exceed black or white and gangs are typically the cause of most violent crime. The black man selling crack on the corner or the white guy cooking meth in his basement aren’t always “bad”, they just happen to be doing something illegal to get money. But whether it’s out of a need for money or not, black people as a percentage of the population commit more crimes than do white. That’s where the “stereotype” comes from and that’s why people make assumptions that aren’t true.

  Sorry for the length, I’ll try to keep these shorter.

• 253 Carlos Miller // Jan 21, 2009 at 1:03 PM

  Mike,

  You’re right about the double standards and that is supposedly justified by all the white repression against black people over the years.

  It’s not just the KKK but it’s all profiling by police, discrimination in the work place and even harsher sentences in the courtrooms.

  And we’re only a couple of generations removed from where black people had to sit in the back of the bus, so the anger is still there in many regards.

  Besides, just because segregation ended, didn’t mean discrimination ended.

  But I believe as a country we are making progress although we still have a way to go.

  I think Obama is going to play a huge role in closing the culture and communication gap between blacks and whites.

• 254 Mike // Jan 21, 2009 at 1:22 PM

  All,

  Going back to the topic of this article, I have some inside information regarding some of the “strange” actions by the officer.

  It was very strange to me that someone who was involved in an “accident” would quit in liu of answering questions by your department. This led me to think he may have something to hide. After talking with an officer closer to the event, it makes much more sense now.

  Mehserle has, maybe, the best police attorney in the US. It was his attorney that had him resign. “Why?” you may ask. As an officer, you cannot plead the 5th when questioned by your department. Any statement that is compelled cannot be used in CA courts, but you must answer questions by investigators. That is not true for Federal courts. If he was compelled to answer questions by his department, they could not use it against him in his CA criminal trial, but the Feds could use it during the inevitable civil rights trial to follow. For this reason, his lawyer suggested he resign because he is now treated just like everyone else and can refuse to talk. Makes much more sense to me now.

  Now, in addition to that, he will most likely “get off” in most people’s eyes. The DA charged murder. This is absurd because for murder, you need to prove malice aforethought. There is no way to do this unless someone has him on tape saying “I plan to kill someone tonight.” The videos that exist show possibly an accident, possibly a mistaken Taser grab, etc. Any one of those are too compelling to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that he had malice. Thus, he’s left with involuntary manslaughter. He’ll likely be sentenced to time served (since his trial will not be for a while and his is in custody this entire time). He’ll be out post-trial and most people will be pissed. We’ll see.

• 255 Chuck // Jan 21, 2009 at 2:14 PM

  That’s why he hired that lawyer, that’s why O.J. hired his lawywers! The best offese is a good defense. You only get what you pay for. Besides with him walking around free he will become a target you know.

• 256 Jeff R. // Jan 21, 2009 at 2:37 PM

  Mike you are missing something BIG.

  When did the Black Panthers kill or rape or obstruct the whites of segregation?

  Did The Nation of Islam ever make white work for free in hard labor to build a city and then tell whites that they can not use its services or enter the front door?

  It is reactionary but not even remotely close to being equal. They are not saying ” because you did, I will too”. They are saying, “since you wont let me join i will start my own Since You keep killing me and taking my rights away, I will find a place where i can have rights and respect.”

  Not Kill me for Kill you, more like kill me for me getting out of your face or disappearing so that you wont do it no more.

  And as I said before,” I know for a fact that all whites are not racist.” I never think that. I meet people and people who interact with me like fair people are fair people not black or white.

  There things that we all do that are racist and if you asked me or anyone else to name them all we could do it in a year. Its like a subscript that takes place based on things you did cognitively notice.

  ” Reputation ” is based on an accumulation of things that already have taken place or have been completed. i.e. Man robs 4th store then his reputation is that of a store thief.

  Stereotype is based on a sampling of character traits that YOU SEE in groups of people or has been noticed and said by many. This sampling is then applied to anyone in that group even if you have never seen them before.

  The difference one is based on an assumption and the other is based on actual events.

  BTW, You might be blacker than me cause i didn’t know what the FUBU acronym was. I been schooled. I live and breathe Nautica for casual wear.

• 257 Carlos Miller // Jan 21, 2009 at 2:39 PM

  Nautica?!

  Don’t you know what that stands for?

• 258 Mike // Jan 21, 2009 at 2:42 PM

  Chuck,

  Agreed. How funny it is that he’ll be a target, but OJ wasn’t ever even assaulted. Makes you think.

• 259 Jeff R. // Jan 21, 2009 at 2:44 PM

  correction

  >>>to name them all we could do it in a year. Its like a subscript that takes place based on things you did NOT cognitively notice.<<

• 260 Jeff R. // Jan 21, 2009 at 2:47 PM

  For me it means comfortable any of that street prophet stuff would stop me from buying the jeans. Only ones that fit the way i like.

• 261 Mike // Jan 21, 2009 at 3:26 PM

  C’mon now Jeff. You know only white, wannabe sailor, crackers can wear Nautica.

• 262 TwoSocks // Jan 21, 2009 at 10:39 PM

  Mike,
  I think you are missing the whole point. Had Mehserle been a “Noble Knight”, he would have cooperated with internal affairs 100%. He would have made some kind of apology to Grant’s family, and he would have felt genuine remorse for killing their son. Last, he would have thrown himself at the mercy of the court.

  But no. Instead, the only thing he has on his mind is escaping justice and running away like a thief in the night. The man is without a doubt an absolute disgrace to the uniform, and he should face a firing squad. The only thing that I agree with you on is that our corrupt judicial system *WILL* find away to keep one of their own POS out of jail, and it doesn’t matter what is captured on video or audio. It makes no difference when it involves an officer. I think we all know that.

  Another prime example is former San Bernardino County sheriff’s deputy Ivory J. Webb Jr. being charged with attempted voluntary manslaughter in the 2006 shooting of an unarmed Air Force police officer named Airman Elio Carrion. I watched the video. Webb orders Carrion to stand up. As soon as he does, Webb pumps three bullets into him. This is as close to an attempted murder case that I have ever seen on video next to Mehserle’s.

  They interview one of the jurors after the non-guilty verdict is read, and she saids the following, “If they would have just shut their mouths and did what he said, none of this would have happened,” said juror Linda Goldstein. “I couldn’t see (Webb) going to prison. If they don’t shoot you on the job, they prosecute you? No one would be a deputy.”

  This is about as asinine of a statement anyone could ever make on this trial. With dipshit jurors like this, no wonder Webb got off. Carrion did do what the officer ordered, and he got shot for it.

• 263 Mike // Jan 22, 2009 at 1:08 PM

  TwoSocks,

  I agree with some of what you said. I really have to disagree with your “the only thing he has on his mind is escaping justice and running away like a thief in the night” comment. What makes you say this? Because he went to NV? Do you even know why he went? Because crazy ass people who think justice is their job have placed numerous bomb threats and death threats against him and even his parents. His parents have had to evacuate their home on more than one occasion because crazy ass, wannbe vigilantes think it’s somehow ok to threaten the lives of someone else’s parents when that person does something wrong. Who the hell do they think they are? Does Mehserle not deserve a right to trial? It is in fact that reason (cop playing all parts of the justice system) that people are so appalled by what happened.

  As soon as cops start being judge, jury, and executioner people get scared, and rightfully so. We’re only there to arrest and the rest of the justice system takes care of their fate. Cops playing God are what people get so angry about. But now you have crazy ass citizens who probably couldn’t pass a background check to even be an officer wanting to play God with a totally screwed up sense of logic. “You killed one of my race so now I will kill your parents.” WTF is that? (And yes, I know that at least some of them are black because some have been caught… not too bright, most criminals). Point is, he had every to run for fear of his life from crazy ass, illogical idiots.

  Regardless of whether you think he did it on purpose, whether you think he did it because of race, whether you think he even planned the whole thing from a year ago, you HAVE to admit that everyday citizens going off half-cocked and trying to kill him is COMPLETELY WRONG in every way. The ONLY reason people even give a crap is because it was a cop. Plenty of guys kill other guys every day and thousands don’t take to the streets to burn the city down and try to kill the gang banger and his family who just capped a rival. Nobody gives a shit about them do they?

• 264 Mike // Jan 22, 2009 at 1:39 PM

  I do have to say one thing here that is an aside to this incident. Cops may have the hardest job in the world and I’ll tell you why. It isn’t necessarily hard to go out and arrest people. It isn’t necessarily hard to drive around and write tickets. It isn’t necessarily hard to testify in court and have your testimony be the hinge on whether someone goes to jail.

  The reason that being a cop is maybe the hardest job in the world is that your responsibility is astronomical. Not only that, but your consequences for mistakes are dire. Like I said before, cops are human. They have human emotions and human flaws. People expect this to not be the case and cops spend a great deal of time aiming for perfection.

  Let me ask you this: which of you hasn’t made a mistake in your job? Which of you have filed a paper in the wrong folder or overcooked a steak in your restaurant? Which of you has screwed up someone’s Taco Bell order or lied on your timecard about what hours you worked? Everyone makes mistakes or even deliberately lies in some cases. The difference is that cops’ mistakes are far more problematic in some cases. It’s not a huge deal if you write a poor report or write down the wrong plate number on a ticket and a guy gets off. It’s not a huge deal if you take it easy one night and just kinda cruise around instead of being proactive and finding crime. But some aspects of the job have HUGE consequences with a mistake. The greatest in particular is your firearm.

  For cops, it’s an everyday thing to draw your gun (at least in any decent sized city). And everyday you normally put it back in the holster once the situation is over and it’s pretty uneventful. I can tell you that there’s been numerous times I’ve had 4lbs of pressure on a 5lb trigger and then after the encounter you think “wow, that was close”. But the public expects that cops will never ever make a mistake. It happens often. Usually it isn’t on purpose and usually it’s an uneventful mistake like a transposed plate number. But sometimes mistakes have a much greater impact than throwing Mild sauce in the bag instead of Hot sauce like the customer asked.

  So think about this the next time you see a cop. He isn’t superhuman. He’s just a man who normally does his job in a decent way. And he’s seen more shit in his few years on the job than most people will see in five lifetimes. I know most of you reading this board are cop haters and in some cases, I don’t blame you. But just remember that MOST of us do our job with honor. MOST of us do not make huge mistakes. And MOST of us are just trying to get through the day and make it home to our families.

  I know this is going out on a limb here and most of you will laugh your asses off instead of actually consider this. But next time you see an officer (as in within talking distance). Something as simple as “I appreciate your service” or “thank you for that job that you do” will make their day. They may not even act like it matters (because we have to look like tough guys). But I guarantee that cop goes home and tells his wife. I guarantee that cop goes out the next day feeling appreciated and more ready to do as good a job that he can. And if it happens to be an officer who is not of the same race as you and he is somewhat racist, it will go a long way in helping him see that there are good people of all races and make him less likely to be harsher with one race or another. Sometimes as an officer, you only deal with the garbage. And you start to think everyone is dirty and everyone is a criminal. Help reverse that with a simple compliment.

• 265 Mike // Jan 22, 2009 at 7:29 PM

  Regarding the last part of my above post, I liken it to riding…

  I ride a sport bike and it’s fairly well known in the biking community that cruisers wave to cruisers and sport bikes wave to sport bikes, but never cross-group. That is so lame, so I always wave to all bikers. Some cruisers don’t wave back, but some do. I hope eventually everyone can just wave regardless of “race”.

• 266 TwoSocks // Jan 22, 2009 at 8:27 PM

  Mike,
  I agree it’s wrong to go after him before the trial. He didn’t have to run. He could have of done something even better, “Ask for police protection for his family. They do have a witness protection program that he could have utilized.”

• 267 TwoSocks // Jan 22, 2009 at 8:50 PM

  Mike,
  I do make mistakes, but I don’t make mistakes that will cost someone their life. Now, you say you have had plenty of situations where you had 4lb of pressure on a 5lb trigger pull. My question to you would be why did you engage the trigger without firing your weapon? What’s the time to go from sliding your finger off the slide to putting it on the trigger? a millisecond? Isn’t this training drilled into cops over and over and over?

• 268 Daniel // Jan 22, 2009 at 9:05 PM

  Most of these people on here want this to be a murder…it is more of a conversation piece on their views on certain matters like police and society…however I suspect this was an accident,but the fact is…. he killed a man, and for most, that is unforgiving. “That is my principal objection to life, I think: It’s too easy, when alive, to make perfectly horrible mistakes.”

• 269 Mike // Jan 22, 2009 at 9:14 PM

  TwoSocks,

  He didn’t “run” though. Everyone knew where he was including law enforcement and his lawyer. He left so he wouldn’t be killed. “Ask for police protection?” Why? So everyone can then cry “foul” that this “murderer” is using state funds to protect his “sorry ass”? I would think most people would be happy he chose not to do that. Wasn’t like he was running to change his name, dye his hair, and hop the border to Canada.

• 270 Mike // Jan 22, 2009 at 9:23 PM

  TwoSocks,

  All I can say is that when you’re faced with a life or death situation (and that includes the taking of someone else’s), things are a whole lot different than Monday morning quarterbacks who think they know it all. The expression “4lbs on a 5lb trigger” is not one of scientific validity, but more an expression used by cops who have drawn their weapon, not for a felony car stop or for preparing to serve a warrant, but for the “holy crap that guy is going to kill me/someone”. In many cases, you take pause (and in those moments, life is super slow and a moment seems like seconds) to evaluate the circumstance before crossing that trigger’s breaking point. Usually you “find a way out” either because what you thought was a knife was a cell phone or because dirt bag drops the weapon before you fire a shot.

  Your first sentence goes directly to my argument. “I do make mistakes, but I don’t make mistakes that will cost someone their life.” That is exactly why I said that cops may have the hardest job in the world because sometimes their mistakes do cost lives. And to expect no mistakes is rather ridiculous when you just admitted, and everyone knows, that everyone makes mistakes. Cops are no different. They just have different consequences.

• 271 TwoSocks // Jan 22, 2009 at 9:42 PM

  Mike,
  He did run, and the police didn’t know where he was. That’s why they issued a fugitive warrant out for his arrest. That’s why it was “investigative leads” that the police to him. If you know where he is, why would you need investigative leads?

• 272 Chuck // Jan 22, 2009 at 9:43 PM

  Maybe they need to train with the military for a few years, no maybe police officers should be recruited entirely from he military where they train you in the 3 positions of preparedness to use with a weapon. Additionally it would employ people with some dicipline and eliminate the tiny weenie pee-pee folks from getting into a situation that thier tiny weenie pee-pee can’t function in?

• 273 TwoSocks // Jan 22, 2009 at 9:45 PM

  Mike,
  He did run, and the police didn’t know where he was. That’s why they issued a fugitive warrant out for his arrest. That’s why it was “investigative leads” that led the police to him. If the police know where he is, why would they need “investigative leads”?

• 274 TwoSocks // Jan 22, 2009 at 10:11 PM

  Mike,
  I understand cops make mistakes. The reason people go crazy when a cop kills someone by mistake/intentional or whatever is because everyone knows that that cop will not go to jail. Yes, people kill each other all of the time, but everyone knows that justice will prevail when it involves only civilians. If I did the same thing as Mehserle or Webb, I would have been charged with murder and later given a lethal injection. No one would have ever thought twice about it. The mistake that these two bozos made is what I would expect from a civilian with no training whatsoever. That’s why I can’t forgive these two cops as easily as you can. I expect cops to take more risk than a civilian. You know the phrase, “It’s better to let ten guilty guys go than imprison one innocent person.” I know you won’t like this, but I think it’s better that a few cops die than for one of them to kill an innocent person. We’re all grown ups here, and we all know how dangerous being a police officer is. I don’t think that you were under any illusions when you made the choice to become an officer. Besides don’t you guys wear level-III bullet-proof vests? Cops are way better trained, protected, and ready to kill someone faster than the bad guys. Cops definitely have the edge, and that’s all they need.

• 275 Carlos Miller // Jan 23, 2009 at 3:51 PM

  I know this is going out on a limb here and most of you will laugh your asses off instead of actually consider this. But next time you see an officer (as in within talking distance). Something as simple as “I appreciate your service” or “thank you for that job that you do” will make their day. They may not even act like it matters (because we have to look like tough guys). But I guarantee that cop goes home and tells his wife. I guarantee that cop goes out the next day feeling appreciated and more ready to do as good a job that he can. And if it happens to be an officer who is not of the same race as you and he is somewhat racist, it will go a long way in helping him see that there are good people of all races and make him less likely to be harsher with one race or another. Sometimes as an officer, you only deal with the garbage. And you start to think everyone is dirty and everyone is a criminal. Help reverse that with a simple compliment.

  Well said, Mike. It’s really about communication. Just as some cops profile people to fall into certain preconceived categories, many civilians profile cops to fall into a preconceived category.

  And I’ve known a lot of my cops in life because I used to cover the cop beat as a newspaper reporter and most cops I knew were just regular guys who put in their hours and went home and had a few beers.

  And for every cop who abuses his authority, there is a civilian who will make a death threat, as you mentioned above.

  And it is these people that force cops and civilians to have their guards up when dealing with each other.

  So I am glad you are here discussing your opinions. There is another cop, Officer Brad, who has also been commenting on this site.

  This is the first step in getting to see past our bias (whether they are just or not) and get to understand the other side.

• 276 Mike // Jan 23, 2009 at 5:11 PM

  Carlos,

  You hit the nail on the head.

  “And for every cop who abuses his authority, there is a civilian who will make a death threat, as you mentioned above.”

  That is exactly how this all came about. A few bad apples in every bunch. When you are a cop and deal with bad people (really, no matter what race), you start to think everyone is bad. When you are a citizen and deal with a bad or rude cop (because really you shouldn’t be dealing with too many cops on a regular basis) you think all cops are like that because you don’t know any better. For every bad cop, there are 100 good ones. For every bad black man, there are 100 good ones. For every bad latino, there are 100 good ones. For every racist white guy, there are 100 who are not. It’s the bad ones that give the good ones a bad rep.

• 277 TwoSocks // Jan 23, 2009 at 5:54 PM

  Guys,
  It isn’t just a few bad cops. It’s a totally corrupt judicial system that protect bad cops. That’s the *REAL* problem. Until the system quits placing cops above the law nothing is going to change ever.

• 278 Mike // Jan 23, 2009 at 6:06 PM

  TwoSocks,

  You mean like OJ was above the law? The real problem is that the judicial system is EXTREMELY lenient. Most people never even see jail for crimes they should do multi-year prison terms for. They get probation for a few years or sometimes months. It’s absurd. They have this notion that people will somehow right themselves by not doing time. You have no idea how many people are repeat offenders. You have no idea how many people have 5+ DUI convictions! That means they’ve driven drunk at least a few hundred times. Where is the damn chair? CA needs to grow a pair and hook up ol’ sparky. How many REPEAT sex offenders are out right now? Once a pedophile, always a pedophile. We don’t need you in society. But our “justice” system feels the need to give people 2nd and 3rd and 4th and 5th chances. Why should cops not be afforded that same “courtesy” especially when they are normally arrested for “mistakes” and not for diddling their 5 year old cousin?

• 279 TwoSocks // Jan 23, 2009 at 8:48 PM

  Mike,
  I agree the system can be lenient toward everyone it seems regardless of occupation, but cops they bend way over backwards for. You know this.

  I thought we have the 3-strike rule? I think pedophiles should have their dick and balls cut off before releasing them. It’s either that or they spend the rest of their lives in prison.

• 280 TwoSocks // Jan 23, 2009 at 8:52 PM

  Exactly. What the hell happened to the chair? I think in Florida, death row inmates, for a while, had a choice of picking the chair or lethal injection. As far as I know, they always picked lethal injection. Lethal injection seems way too easy and painless.

• 281 1223 // Jan 24, 2009 at 2:08 AM

  “Your first sentence goes directly to my argument. “I do make mistakes, but I don’t make mistakes that will cost someone their life.” That is exactly why I said that cops may have the hardest job in the world because sometimes their mistakes do cost lives. And to expect no mistakes is rather ridiculous when you just admitted, and everyone knows, that everyone makes mistakes. Cops are no different. They just have different consequences.”

  I dont think he understands that. A lot of people on here seem to be having a hard time imagining being surrounded by a fuck load of a thugs (I know they are, I went to HS in Hayward with alot of them, I even recognize dude who stood up after the shot was fired) These guys are pretty much peices of shit. One of the videos (not this one) shows a cop standing in front of whats going on so much as to buffer the scene from the people, and before anything of the shooting happened, a kid throws a fucking rock at the cop acting as a buffer. Anyone who calls this a murder, has never had an innocent friend murdered. I had a friend murdered at a Cinco De Mayo in downtown SJ for simply bumping into a car. Got stabbed with an icepick, thats a murder. When you live a life of violence, you die by a life of violence in whatever way. Those kids will probably die by violence eventually too.

• 282 1223 // Jan 24, 2009 at 2:13 AM

  Just to reiterate, it sucks what happened to Oscar. He did not deserve it on that night. Its just frustrating to see people talk so much shit about cops shooting “innocent” people when those people first of all are far from innocent, and do what they can to make the cops job harder than it needs to be.

  One of the reasons I would never be a cop, you cant win. You want to do well for the community, but the community only wants to see you burn for it. When a black man is killed by another black man, they dont say a fucking word about it. No riots. Those are the true cowards.

  Believe me, if they wanted to murder the kid. They woulda loaded him into a car, took him to a secluded, dark place around fruitvale (and there are alot of those, trust me) and would capped him there.

• 283 Jeff R. // Jan 24, 2009 at 2:54 AM

  Mike, You are showing your color. The only people who bring up oj as an example of a bad judicial system is RACIST.

  look at this for every OJ there are 1000 whites that got the same treatment.

  find a better example. its the only thing that will make it seem like you dont think in racial terms.

  OJ IS A AN EXAMPLE WHITE-MAN MAD THAT THE SYSTEM DIDN’T WORK LIKE USUAL.

  NAME ANOTHER. can you do that?

• 284 Carlos Miller // Jan 24, 2009 at 3:08 AM

  I used to be a death row supporter but there have been too many cases where DNA proved the guy on death row never committed the crimes, so now I’m against it.

  Before DNA, the system would obviously pick a scapegoat to “close their case” while the real murderer/rapist was still running free.

• 285 TwoSocks // Jan 24, 2009 at 2:02 PM

  “Anyone who calls this a murder, has never had an innocent friend murdered. ”

  Yes, I have. He was more than a friend. He was my baby brother, and he bled to death in my arms. The cop was being taunted similiar in Oscar’s case, and he decided to take it out on my brother in a fit of rage.

  I admit cops are human, and they do make mistakes that cost people their lives. But that doesn’t mean that they haven’t committed a crime and shouldn’t have to pay for that crime just like everyone else.

  You see I could never ever in a million years approach Grant’s family and try to tell them that Mehserle made a mistake and that it was just an accident and that they should just drop their case. I had several people tell me that same line of crap in my brother’s case.

  No one here will ever ever understand what it’s like to live with a cop’s mistake, to have your brother treated like he was the criminal that deserved what he got and the cop the poor helpless victim, to be dragged through the court system over and over again as a witness, to have no public support because you’re white, and to fight a civil case for sixteen very long painful years only to lose at the end. The only vindication my family ever received was the jury saying that my brother was killed “maliciously”. I’m really praying like hell that Grant’s family doesn’t go through that bullshit.

• 286 Chuck // Jan 24, 2009 at 2:17 PM

  WAIT, just a minute. What makes you think the system doesn’t work cause O.J. bought himself a defense team that embarrassed the prosecutorial side like a flasher caught with his coat wide open. O.J. bought and paid for a defense and that team so completely trashed a prosecution by bringing the cops poor handling of everything from the crime scene to the evidence to light. ALL the jury needs to have to aquit is a REASONABLE DOUBT and with the cop Furman, and the theatrics of the glove they created that. O.J. got exactly what he paid for.

  The law as I said before doesn’t care if someone punched me in the face everyday for a year that one time I punch him back we are both equally guilty of assault.

  On the subject of death row; I think we do not have severe enough punishment for convicted persons. They got to a system which is pervasive in drugs and whatever else the crooks want. Television, games,internet etc. When some one gets out of jail they should be so afraid to go back that they wet thier pants at the thought. Instead of exercise time ev ery convict should be taken from thier cell and whipped everyday. They should be left alone with thier thoughts for the rest of the day. Returning to the system should be the most horrible thing that they can think of.

  In the middle east, you steal you get a hand cut off, rape and get castrated and hung, why do YOU think the crime rate is so low in these countries??????

• 287 Jeff R. // Jan 24, 2009 at 2:57 PM

  COPS have a superiority complex. They are taught to never belive what they hear.
  So when a lady says that she is in labor, they take 1hr to give here a ticket.
  When a man says that he is having breathing problems, they put handcuff on him.

  They investigate a who they want to and not who the evidence points to.

  ie
  My x-girlfriend had 3 members of her family die in 2 months. It was her closest brother (out of 4), her uncle who took her to school for all of her high school life, and her aunt who she stayed with after her mother beat her and kicked her out of the house when she said that he was touching her.

  We dated for 3-years previous and 2-years post. In the post she became EXTREMELY depress. She was in and out of mental care.

  One night while she was doing very well, a man beat her and took her money in the driveway. I was at work ( hotel security ). The police called me at work so i left to come home. When i got there they would not allow me to see her at 1st but said that she had a broken nose and some bruises.

  They then started asking if I had any drugs and such. Saying that they found a few seeds and a roach the size of an eraser (No.2 pencil sized eraser). on the floor just inside of the door.
  I was at work when they called and had been there for 5hrs previous. They continued to ask those kinds of question and i continued to ask them had they investigate the crime that she had called them for.

  They would not answer the question. There were 4 witnesses to the crime there 3 were white. We all kept asking are you gonna investigate the crime you were called to investigate. They said no and then arrest my girlfriend for possession of marijuana, took her to a hospital to be seen for injuries that occurred when she was robed. Then they put her in jail.

  The cop who lead the investigation of a victom told me one day at a store that he despises the fact that blacks live in this neighborhood and that he was going to get all of us eventually. His partner who at first seemed almost fair was later arrested for raping black girls in poor neighborhoods. His C.O. was suspected of extorting money from drug dealers. The chief of police fired them all.

  His friends stayed on the police force and they were suspected also of shady police practices.

  I got at least 20 examples of police doing things like this.

  There is a theory that if you have an opinion about something that there are at least 10,000 people in your region that agree with you.
  SO, if i have 20 examples of police doing wrongful things. Then so does at least 10,000 other people in my region. Thats 200,000 examples of police overstepping the line.

  I have examples of great things i saw the police do also. But not as many of those as negative.

  Police should be mentally evaluated by an independent council of psychiatrist every quarter. They have a lot of mental problems that go undiagnosed.

• 288 TwoSocks // Jan 24, 2009 at 3:59 PM

  “In the middle east, you steal you get a hand cut off, rape and get castrated and hung, why do YOU think the crime rate is so low in these countries??????”

  That’s only if you are not part of the oil tycoon clan.

  Same thing here. If you’re a cop, you can do pretty much whatever you want. 99% of the time a cop will just get two weeks of paid vacation (administrative leave) for doing something wrong.

  Jeff R., I like those examples of cops gone bad. Please give us more examples.

• 289 Peter // Jan 24, 2009 at 7:35 PM

  Anyone who defines that as Taser confusion, for no other reason than, “the look on his face,” is an absolute moron.

  The guy pulled out his gun an executed him. I don’t see confusion, surprise, or shock, I see the customary, “whatever have I done..” look. This is rarely seen, as it only appears on the faces of people who know exactly what they did, but know damn well they have to deny it from that moment forward.

• 290 TwoSocks // Jan 24, 2009 at 10:24 PM

  “Anyone who defines that as Taser confusion, for no other reason than, “the look on his face,” is an absolute moron.”

  It’s either that the person is an absolute moron, or the person is blinded by the “thin blue line”. Cops will say anything no matter how ridiculous to protect one of their own kind. You only have to jump on policelink.com to verify that. Most of them say it was a Taser mixup.

• 291 Draw Griffins // Jan 25, 2009 at 7:23 AM

  They burned down police departments in Greece when cops shoot kids. americans are either wimps, lazy or dont care about other people anymore.

• 292 Chuck // Jan 25, 2009 at 12:23 PM

  When did you discover people could give two shits about someone else. Remember we are also talking about California where they can’t see past the end of thier nose unless it affects them directly.

• 293 Chuck // Jan 25, 2009 at 2:49 PM

  Draw sounds like you need to be a Greek citizen, take your KY with you, See Ya!

• 294 Draw Griffins // Jan 25, 2009 at 7:47 PM

  no thanks im an american and those cops were easy enough to arrest without any burning lol -your nasty comments only enforce that you are just the type of person who has been letting their neighbor down.

• 295 TwoSocks // Jan 25, 2009 at 10:03 PM

  Chuck,
  What’s KY? Is that anything related to KY jelly?

• 296 Chuck // Jan 26, 2009 at 3:14 AM

  That’s it Two socka
  and isn’t Draw too clever. The way he describes it as “burning” makes me wonder how he chose that description?

• 297 debra thomas // Jan 27, 2009 at 10:51 AM

  this is a killing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

• 298 hater // Jan 28, 2009 at 1:24 AM

  Both scumbags, amazing how god weeds them out after that white cop goes to prison for life.

• 299 Mind reader // Jan 28, 2009 at 3:12 AM

  - You piece of shit! You scumbag! I hate you all! You are going to Pay today!

  - OMG, what did I do…

  Cops and other LEOs and paras have NO RESPECT at all for people, you included.

• 300 Peter // Jan 28, 2009 at 3:25 PM

  I’m from Europe and I’m flabbergasted about the trigger happiness of the cops in the USA; why the hell did he even want to use teaser; the guy was already handcuffed and quiet; absolute no psychological training in unarmed dealing with a suspect ; these cops should be sent back to school and learn to you they’re brains in stead of guns; and use mental control;

• 301 Frank Wylie // Feb 1, 2009 at 11:10 AM

  Officer Brad, the number of replies have made this almost impossible to carry on a reasonable dialog, but I’ll make one more post and sign off, seeing as how the debate has degenerated into a hate fest and not much constructive discussion is happening…

  Just for the record, I never said police cannot/should not confiscate evidence, I objected to what appeared to be anonymous confiscation without any chain of custody, which would pretty much convince me that it was simply a cover-up.

  I have no problems with your outlined “chain of custody”, but it does not appear to be how the BART incident was handled, if camera phones were indeed gathered by “the plastic bag full” from onlookers.

  Anonymous phone confiscation can pretty much only be interpreted as evidence suppression, because there IS no chain of custody and the confiscation of these phones should constitute crimes of property theft, denial of constitutional rights and perhaps even conspiracy on a number of felonies, right?

  (Of course, I wasn’t there to see how evidence was gathered, and I speculate that you weren’t either, so grains of salt all around.)

  I am glad you looked into this and I retract my doubts about you looking into the matter — thank you for doing some research, it makes me feel better that you would take the time to do the research.

  I think your 90 to 95% figure of happy to cooperate witnesses is probably true IF everyone is being treated within the letter of the law.

  For me, it simply boils down to the fact that police officers have a hard time, dancing on that line between law and disorder, but when something as blatant as this occurs and attempts are made to cover it up or suppress it with statements that marginalize the crime, then we citizens have to wonder if you’re just another gang to contend with on a daily basis.

  For the hardliners who want to paint me as a bleeding heart, I am firmly a moderate — 6 years in the Army, expert marksman and grenadier — the act of calling someone unpatriotic because they voice a different opinion is simply cowardice.

  Those without the imagination or mental capacity to constructively debate this problem ARE THE PROBLEM, not the solution.

• 302 Chuck // Feb 1, 2009 at 3:21 PM

  Frank I am applauding you well said.

• 303 Peter // Feb 2, 2009 at 2:43 AM

  “Those without the imagination or mental capacity to constructively debate this problem ARE THE PROBLEM, not the solution”

  Frank
  but what do you consider here as the problem? is it the illegal collecting of evidence (cameras), or the easy use of guns by police (and criminals)

• 304 Chuck // Feb 2, 2009 at 11:50 AM

  Peter, Frank is talking about all the peiople who seem to be only able to say :”kill the pigs”, “burn the police station down”, “take to the streets and riot” You know all those things that cowards say to make it look like they are brave or smart (ass maybe)? The stuff that really shows thier ignorance.

• 305 Mike // Feb 2, 2009 at 1:04 PM

  As suspected by some, but refuted by most (hell, even I doubted it), it’s pretty clear now that the officer was attempting to tase Grant. It is really a shame that this video and all others brought before and after have such crappy audio. Everyone in that station that has been questioned has stated that Mehserle was yelling “Taser, Taser, back up I’m going to tase him,” before he pulled his gun and shot Grant.

  To all the nah-sayers that have said “Tasers don’t feel like guns” or “he should have known that it was a gun in his hand because it’s heavier than a Taser” have obviously no clue what it is to be like in a real fight. Gross motor skills go out the window along with your sense of touch. That is why in the academy, they teach racking the slide to release it vs. using the slide release (little lever on the side of the gun). In a real fight, hitting that lever would be next to impossible without TONS of repetitive training until it was just second nature. Likewise a Taser vs. gun difference is really minimal when you are holding a weapon with virtually the same shape and it has a trigger.

  We carry Tasers in drop holsters on our weak-side leg (left for a righty). BART carries theirs on their weakside, but cross-draw (so you draw the Taser with your “gun hand”). The first time my brother Tased someone, he actually didn’t know exactly what happened. He wishes there was some video so he could analyze his response, but it happened so fast that he doesn’t know how it went down. He pulled up to a call and immediately as he was exiting the car, a guy was running full bore at him. He says it was like one second he realized the guy was running and the next the guy was dropping to the ground. He’s not sure when he pulled the trigger and in which hand. He obviously drew left handed, but doesn’t know if he fired left handed or switched to his right and then fired.

  My point is that in a situation like that, everything is reactionary, not “thoughtful”. It’s not like you have a few seconds to weigh the gun and estimate that it feels a little light and maybe you check your weapon before firing. It’s a split-second, almost unconscious, reaction. Mehserle’s reaction was wrong. I suspect that BART will change it’s policy of carrying Tasers cross-draw to carrying them weak-hand draw. Then all of your training is “Taser = weak hand”, “gun = strong hand” and when an encounter happens and you make the Taser decision, you immediately use the correct hand instead of having a dual purpose hand.

  That being said, I still maintain that his reaction was incorrect and his fault and he should be convicted of involuntary manslaughter. But that’s up to the jury.

• 306 Peter // Feb 2, 2009 at 1:13 PM

  I know this is America and the criminal folks here are not the nicest people on earth, but compared with the Netherlands the amount of killing (cop or during arrest is extremely high;
  In my opinion this will not change as long as weapons are free to buy for civilians; as long as the constitution is not changed on this you may all feel sorry for the victims (and I really do), but in the end it’s something you all accept it as it and the killing will go on and on and on and…

• 307 Peter // Feb 2, 2009 at 1:15 PM

  correction missing word

  (cop or should be (cop or criminal)

• 308 Mike // Feb 2, 2009 at 1:54 PM

  Peter,

  I don’t necessarily agree that there is a high number of killings during arrest by either side here in the US, but I do agree we have higher violent crimes than a lot of other countries. This does not transfer to guns though. It is American’s mentality that causes the deaths. “If guns were outlawed, only outlaws would have guns.” The problem is American’s lack of respect for life and I think because of our increased freedoms and rights, most have a sense of entitlement to do whatever the hell they want without consequences. Those people who feel like they have a problem with someone, also feel like it’s their “right” to take matters into their own hands and kill them. Even if you look at the non-violent part of society, we are the most litigious country in the world as well. There is no such thing as an accident in America anymore; it’s somebody’s fault and I need to find whoever has the deepest pockets to sue so I can get the millions I’m “entitled” to. This country has run a muck with “rights” and so citizens have used that to their advantage. This is for both violent and non-violent.

  Our media and our entertainment play a huge role too. Since parents no longer watch their kids, the TV does, kids idolize people on TV. This is usually entertainers and musicians and sports stars. The problem is that the “news” pulls out the “bad” stories to show and thus everything displayed is bad. The things that make the news here are Britney getting trashed, so kids get trashed. Paris getting DUIs, so more kids drive drunk. Miley Cyrus taking pictures in her underwear, so every tween girl sends pictures of themselves naked or in their underwear now. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is an increase in dog fighting because Michael Vick was on the news for that. If you look at our idea of entertainment, you see it modeled in real life by the masses. Other countries don’t display the garbage and glamorize it like we do.

• 309 Chuck // Feb 2, 2009 at 2:06 PM

  I beleve that there was a picture posted before showing the guilty party from his left side and he had NO TASER on his belt at all.

• 310 Chuck // Feb 2, 2009 at 2:07 PM

  concealing that fact may be why they stole all the cellphones

• 311 Chuck // Feb 2, 2009 at 2:14 PM

  You know that in ancient Roman society actors were ascribed a social class that was below that of a slave!! They were considered to be persons who put on false faces to act and so you could never trust that you were seeing the real person, that’s the way I think of them today, they act and so are unreliable as to what comes out of thier mouth. They sell thier words to the highest bidder and so mean nothing.

  The other class of person that has no other redeeming value than that of entertainment and example of whaty not to be is the professional sports player, if you are notr smart enought to do anything else you can always play sports (we no longer have ditch diggers), although we have prisons full of potential public works workers. the chain gang was a good idea too bad it went away for the most part.

  And as I have said before you should come out of prison and wet your pants when thinking of going back….

• 312 Mike // Feb 2, 2009 at 3:34 PM

  Chuck,

  I concur. Prison should be a place of horrific memories that would make anyone do everything they could not to go back, and tell everyone they meet to stay on the straight and narrow because prison is hell.

  Too bad it’s Club Fed.

• 313 Peter // Feb 2, 2009 at 3:59 PM

  Hi Mike
  1-I don’t fully agree with “If guns were outlawed, only outlaws would have guns” because if this was true how can it be that in countries where guns are outlawed (i.e Europe) very little shooting and killing occurs with guns (% compared with the USA)
  it’s the fact that its so damned easy for anyone to get a gun (seen Micheal Moore- b.w.Colombine??); in anger you just pull the trigger; In Europe there’s also agression ofcourse and sometime also a killing; but in a quarrel w/o guns you can leave with a broken nose or blue eye ; its more difficult to kill with bare hands.
  2- I agree with your statement about USA =the most litigious society but you see it also increasing in Europe. Mediation would mostly be of more benefit to all parties iso court

• 314 Jeff R. // Feb 2, 2009 at 5:30 PM

  If a woman was raped or people in her family had been rape often, would you tell her that she is not justified in her out rage at her daughters rape?

  Should she be calm and make no complaints or personal protest?

  I think not. You would completely understand why she is so mad about it. You would completely understand if she held a demonstration about it too.

  Police have done this to black people a long time. Its at epidemic proportions and you cant see it if you are white.
  The same way a man can never completely understand how a raped woman feels, or how it feels to have a child.

  For whites to tell blacks how they should feel about something like this is equivalent to a man giving advice on how to deal with a period or what it feels like to breast feed.

  A fish cant tell you what land is like and a cat cant tell you what it feels like to swim.

  This is what irks more than anything about subjects like this. The news will have a panel of white people talking about a topic that effects blacks as if they could read a million books and then completely understand.
  Or they will have some extra cottony soft republican black who married to a white because he/she thinks that loosing his identity makes him more favorable to whites.

  I don’t what its like to be upset at a white issue white if there are any. But don’t come telling black folks how they should understand something. It’s like your saying that only a white point of view can be just OR THAT ONLY A WHITE CAN UNDERSTAND THE SITUATION BECAUSE BLACKS HAVE LESS EDUCATION AND ARE SKEWED FROM TRUE FACTS AND EDUCATION ON THE TOPIC. . . .

  WHITES WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND THE BLACK EXPERIENCE IN AMERICA, BECAUSE THEY NEVER WERE TREATED LIKE A BLACK MAN.

• 315 Mike // Feb 2, 2009 at 7:07 PM

  Jeff,

  I don’t doubt the pain suffered by black people at the hands of some white people. This event however, had nothing to do with race and people are making it that out of nothing. There is absolutely no indication that there was racism involved, yet people want to make it that so they can protest and perpetuate that all white people are racist. It’s ridiculous. Next time a black man kills a white person, I’m burning down the city and telling everyone how black people kill white people. As ridiculous as that sounds is as ridiculous as the opposite.

• 316 Mike // Feb 2, 2009 at 7:47 PM

  Jeff,

  Really? “I don’t what its like to be upset at a white issue white if there are any.”

  How about black people throwing down the race card any chance they can, even when it isn’t related; which is most of the time. There’s a white issue for ya. Being labeled a racist anytime you arrest a black person. Hello, McFly, black people commit crimes too. Arresting them doesn’t mean I’m racist, it means I arrest criminals. When black officers of my shift arrest white people, the white guys don’t throw down the race card. You know why? Because it would be a fabrication. Just like black people using it everyday to explain what a crappy situation they have going for them.

  Man up and take some responsibly. Whitey didn’t put you down there, you keep yourself down there and justify it with bullshit race cards and fake cries of conspiracy. Stop whining and do something with your life. Who knows, maybe one day you could be President.

• 317 Jeff R. // Feb 3, 2009 at 12:44 AM

  I am glad you , yourself, mike brought the racism word RACISM .

  My comment was about whites telling black how they should react. You didn’t take it that way. You thought i said racism.

  Definitions of racism on the Web:

  1. Racism – is prejudice or discrimination based on the belief that race is the primary factor determining human traits and abilities. Racism includes the belief that genetic or inherited differences produce the inherent superiority or inferiority of one race over another. …

  2. Racist – Playing the race card is an idiomatic phrase referring to an allegation raised against a person who has brought the issue of race or racism into a …

  Assuming that a guy is dangerous because he meets a particular set TRAITs.

  How many white men are shot in handcuff by police officers? less than 4% for blacks that number is 11%

  Most major cities dedicates 68% of its police force to predominately black areas.

  In 1986 they did a study to ask people who were they most afraid of walking behind you at night. 88% of those responding said a black man. In, 2001 it was 72% percent.

  Cops pull their guns when approaching a screen with mostly whites 46% of the time . Blacks 84%.

  Blacks are searched on routine stops 37% of the time. Whites 22%

  Theft committed : white 39% blacks 44%

  Black are 35% more likely to get a harsh sentence across the board.

  I can go for days with this. I have been working on a doc. for 2 years gathering research and footage about the Images we create and how it effects blks and whites. I am story boarding now.

  My statement was about somebody saying that some other person who is from a different experience is not correct to have a position.

  You don’t know what its like for blacks and i don’t know white life. We are from 2 different set of rules and 2 different sets of teaching.

  And when blacks do play the race card, as you say, you you cant just write it off as such because its the easier thing to do.

  Whites hate to admit to anything dealing with fault by stereotype.
  Black have to pointing at everything and saying racism such as Imus and then missing it with Sean Hanady.

  Natural by stereotype this cop was at a heighten state of awareness in the situation. He was more aggressive than was necessary. That was because of definition 1.

• 318 Mike // Feb 3, 2009 at 1:09 PM

  Jeff,

  I am so glad that you are an intelligent person to have a discussion with. Most people argue nonsense but you make very good arguments and have logic to back up your statements.

  I don’t doubt your statistics. But I think that most of them are a result of image and not so much of race. What I mean by that is image gives off a certain vibe and people associate certain images with certain ideas; basically stereotypes. As an example, if a 300 lb white guy with sunglasses, leather vest, and a goatee is walking behind someone, they’re scared to death too. Bikers have that image. Hells Angels are bad mother f**** and your chance of death is greatly increased from an encounter with them vs an encounter with an little old lady. Likewise, most people wouldn’t think for two seconds about safety if a black man was walking behind them in a suit. Now the white “biker” guy could be a big teddy bear who just likes to look tough and the black guy could be a serial killer (though we know we reserve “serial killer” for white guys only… hehe). But image plays a huge role in what we assume about someone. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it’s probably a duck. If you dress like a thug, talk like a thug, act like a thug, and hang out with thugs, you are most likely a thug. Now for whatever reason (I’m going with media and culture here) black youth want to look like thugs, act like thugs, talk like thugs. In a big way, they bring on their heightened scrutiny by acting like and dressing like the people who rightfully deserve that heightened scrutiny. I’m certainly not taking a chance with my life on “maybe he’s just a straight “A” kid who wants to look like a hard core gang banger”.

  For the same reason, I can never recall pulling a gun on a black man in a suit, or even in casual wear. Most gun carrying people aren’t wearing suits or polos (too hard to get to their piece). By in large the baggy wearing people are the ones with guns (it hides them well). If you want to dress like the people with the guns, then you’ll be treated as such until it can be determined that you do not have one. Same exact thing goes for white guys. White guys in baggy shit are getting searched. I don’t care what race you are. If you look like a criminal, you’ll be treated as such until I know it’s safe.

  I honestly can say that I do not see color when determining an assumed threat level. It is dress, tattoos, mannerisms, and “gut feelings”. Just like a lawyer wouldn’t be taken seriously in court wearing a sweatsuit, you can’t expect a high level of respect wearing a jersey and pants that are 10 sizes bigger than your actual waist.

  Do you not concede at least to some degree that many black people and some white people bring on their added attention by looking like the people who deserve that attention?

• 319 Mike // Feb 3, 2009 at 2:09 PM

  Jeff,

  I’m glad you brought up Imus too. In a world of supposed “free speech” it is amazing that someone’s description gets such ridicule when others make much more blatant racist comments. It may have been distasteful, but certainly no less than anything Howard Stern says.

  To Imus’ defense, they were by definition nappy-headed and since they’re in college, most likely hoes. If he had said that USC’s women’s basketball team were spoiled little sluts, he would be equally offensive but no less accurate and no one would have made a peep about it.

• 320 Jeff R. // Feb 3, 2009 at 3:23 PM

  That exactly what i was saying. Its duck if it wants to be a duck. And sometime that duck has to be overly cooperative to allow the officer the ability to adjust his 1st impression.

  None the less, officers should be aware of the style trends and exercise an adjustment as the situation develops.

  Thugs do not speak clearly and do not have manors 1st of all. So it would seem that some training on being less aggressive could come into use if an officer can recognize that the subject making a huge attempt at being cooperative.

  I know that they have to be skeptical to be safe but skeptical and aggressive often stop an officer from hearing anything other than what is playing out in his head.
  Perception anomalies can turn a sentence like “Sir, can you tell me what i am being detained for?” into , ” You ain’t got no reason to hold me.” . The second would be considered by most cops, the beginning of resisting arrest.

  No matter how many times i watch this video i see no mannerism that suggest resisting arrest. Though there were a lot of people yelling and taunting, the actual subjects seemed to be the calmest ones.

  Maybe he thought that he had his safety on or maybe not. If i accidently shoot someone in my front yard at 3am while they are skirmishing off with my flat screen, I will still go to jail.

  And this officer needs to go to jail. You see as long as 3 out of 5 cops get no sentence for these type of actions there will be not restructured training to deal woth this and some will be more apt to do the same.

  I do somewhat concede to your point but my point is valid also.

• 321 Mike // Feb 3, 2009 at 4:01 PM

  Jeff,

  I do agree that your point(s) are valid. But like most situations it goes both ways. Each side bears some responsibility for what goes on. I totally agree that officers need to chill out sometimes. People are slow to change their minds of first impressions, and to do so in a matter of seconds is often very difficult. But officers still should do that. We have a responsibility to be professional as well as being safe. I think often times professionalism takes a back seat and that is not right at all.

  And on the same token, the public needs to be more respectful of officers. We’re just doing our job. We aren’t harassing you to harass you. We normally don’t talk to you unless we’re called by someone else, so we’re just investigating a report. Just let us do our job and we’ll be out of your hair in a few minutes unless you did something illegal in which case you need to man up and take responsibility for it. There is no need for attitude when we show up to your house. You, your spouse, or your neighbor called. It’s not like we chose to come to your house that day.

  Just like you claim officers treat black people like shit, black people treat officers like shit. Again, these are generalizations. I’ve had plenty of great encounters, just like I hope many people would say they’ve had great encounters with me. But those who show immense disrespect are certainly getting it from me. And I’d like to think that I’m always respectful and give people the benefit of the doubt until they change that.

• 322 Alex // Feb 23, 2009 at 3:45 PM

  Wow. The cop murdered him. IT DOESN’T MATTER if the cop looked shocked or confused. He equiped himself before he left his HQ. He knew what he had on him and where it was. He wasn’t in danger and the situation did not look threatening to him as to elicit a fear based fight or flight response.
  No. He took his time drew his weapon and took that mans life assassination style, in cold blood. That BART officer deserves the same fate that subdued man got… if not worse.

• 323 Sotsec7 // Aug 5, 2009 at 4:11 AM

  its true that poor kid did not deserve to be shot but I really don’t think that the police officer meant to shoot him, why would he it doesn’t any sense do you really think that he went to work that day thinking god i hope i get to kill some one today come on he is still human. and if he was intent on assassinating the guy why did he shoot him in the middle of his back not the back of his head and what the hell do any of you have to complain about on here any way your not the family that has to live without their son or the poor retard that has to live with having killed someone

• 324 TwoSocks // Aug 13, 2009 at 12:44 AM

  I agree with Alex 1000%. Sotsec7 is a moron.

• 325 TwoSocks // Aug 13, 2009 at 12:50 AM

  To Mike,
  Give me an honest opinion. How do you treat the shit birds that have PBA emblems bolted to their license plates?

• 326 otis fonebone // Sep 30, 2009 at 2:19 AM

  fuck him

• 327 ownbig.ru // Sep 30, 2009 at 7:04 AM

  Such an enjoyable read, and fantastic comments

• 328 Brian Ellis // Nov 18, 2009 at 1:25 PM

  BALANCE. I CANT WAIT

• 329 Paul // Dec 1, 2009 at 6:39 PM

  I think it’s important in cases like this that everyone stand up and be an advocate for fairness, not just mob justice. If it can be reasonably established that the officer simply mistook his firearm for his taser, then a manslaughter/negligent homicide charge is more appropriate in the same way someone who accidentally runs over someone while texting is not the same as someone who purposefully plows their car into a a group of people.

  Regardless of the outcome that man should never again be allowed to wear a badge due to either his violent tendencies or his inability to perform his job correctly, but cries to string him up in the town square only make police accountability groups seem like raving lunatics rather than reasonable, concerned citizens.

• 330 Lisamarie // Jan 27, 2010 at 6:43 AM

  I saw a very early comment about the train and why it stayed for so long but then suddenly closed right after the shooting.

  Some fun facts about BART train doors:

  The train operator controls when the doors close, but if you obstruct the doors, the train cannot move. However, the doors in front of the camera didn’t try to close, so the operator was probably watching just like everyone else. Their windows open and they lean their heads out to (sometimes) make sure that everyone is on the train and no one gets left behind. I can only imagine that as soon as the operator realized what had happened, it was in the best interest of everyone that the train move along.

  As far as the video..
  I believe that this man will get what he deserves, whether or not it’s a jury that gives it to him. The universe has a peculiar way of bitch slapping you with the karma you create.

• 331 I know stuff // Jun 18, 2010 at 3:50 PM

  If you have your FINGER on the trigger with your right hand. And you squeeze anything with your LEFT hand you will automatically also squeeze your right hand and thus the trigger. Which is what happened here. Work with guns enough and you too will misfire. Once you’ve done it, you’ll never make that fuck up again. Sadly, this cop misfired while covering. And he covered improperly it seems.

  This cops biggest error was improper holding procedures and position on his weapon. Cops are trained about this kind of simple stuff in regards to opening doors with guns drawn so it’s common knowledge.

  I have no idea if it was deliberate or not.

• 332 AD // Jun 18, 2010 at 6:27 PM

  And what this video doesn’t show is the female cop who was ordering a girl (that was videoing the incident) turn over her camera phone. For what!!? I’ll tell you! To make this evidence of murder conveniently disappear! If Mehserly (or the arresting officer) was actually struggling around with Grant, okay, I could see that he was in a life and death situation. But that is not the case here. Grand was on his stomach, BOTH hands behind him. Cops NEED to be held to the highest standards! Their accidents can end with the taking of a life. SO if a cop kills someone intentially, hey, they should be treated just the same as a hardened criminal. I mean, really, Mehserly took the law into HIS own hands that night!

• 333 bgwillia // Jun 25, 2010 at 8:22 PM

  Just heard on the radio today that Mehserle was in court and “gave tearful testimony that he thought he was reaching for his taser.”

• 334 bgwillia // Jun 26, 2010 at 4:47 PM

  Here’s the article: http://cbs5.com/crime/mehserle.taser.testimony.2.1772643.html

• 335 bryan // Jul 1, 2010 at 12:27 AM

  hey dumb dumb, those are not guards. They are police officers. Many were city police officers at one point in their life and chose to take this position. If the dumb asses hadnt started shit at the last stop they would not have been pulled from the train in the first place.

• 336 bgwillia // Jul 2, 2010 at 8:33 PM

  New article on Zomblog predicting riots if the mob don’t get it their way when the trial ends in a few days: “Forecast: Category 5 Riot Expected to Hit Oakland Soon” http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=1566

  Lots of threat graffiti spray-painted in Oakland photographed and posted in the article.

• 337 bgwillia // Jul 8, 2010 at 5:34 PM

  Verdict reached on case. They’re going to announce it at 4pm PDT today:
  http://www.ktvu.com/news/24188551/detail.html

• 338 bgwillia // Jul 8, 2010 at 6:17 PM

  Verdict’s in: “Jury Finds Mehserle Guilty Of Involuntary Manslaughter”
  http://www.ktvu.com/news/24188551/detail.html

• 339 bgwillia // Jul 8, 2010 at 6:27 PM

  This one looks like a more stable web page:
  http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/07/08/BAM21EBDOD.DTL&tsp=1

  Video played an important part in the trial:
  “Video footage played repeatedly in court showed that as Mehserle raised his gun, Pirone had his left knee on Grant’s neck. Pirone’s left hand was pressing Grant’s head into the platform, and Pirone’s right hand was holding Grant’s right arm – the same one Mehserle said he had struggled with – behind his back.”

  The power of a free press.

• 340 oscar finch // Jul 8, 2010 at 6:29 PM

  I guess the jury didn’t see it the way most of you did.

• 341 oscar finch // Jul 8, 2010 at 6:34 PM

  If it wasn’t for the video he would have probably gotten murder when all the witnesses lied.

• 342 bgwillia // Jul 8, 2010 at 6:45 PM

  Oakland’s being cleared because certain elements didn’t agree with the verdict: “LIVE BLOG: Oakland evacuating because of Johannes Mehserle verdict”

  “4:17 – A speaker in Los Angeles is railing hard against the judgement and police brutality. Scary talk as he was calling the crowd to take up “weapons”, real and metaphoric against the ‘system’.

  “4:25 – Oakland is a ghost town as most workers are leaving the city en masse. So far, so good…

  “4:31 PM – Police helicopters are hovering in LA.”

  Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/ybenjamin/detail?entry_id=67466#ixzz0t8ZuRkLu

• 343 bgwillia // Jul 8, 2010 at 9:22 PM

  Watching live stream of the protests: http://www.ktvu.com/video/24189294/index.html Downtown area packed but other areas deserted.

• 344 bgwillia // Jul 9, 2010 at 6:32 AM

  Aftermath: 83 arrests, a dozen stores damaged and a couple looted: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/08/jury-reaches-verdict-case-transit-worker-charged-killing-calif-train-station/#commenting

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