amtrak
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Update: The Colbert Report follows up the story with a hilarious segment on Feb. 2, 2009. Check out the video here.
Update: Silence speaks volumes for Amtrak arrestee
By Carlos Miller
Armed with his Canon 5D and his new Lensbaby lens, photographer Duane Kerzic set out to win Amtrak’s annual photo contest this week, hoping to win $1,000 in travel vouchers and have his photo published in Amtrak’s annual calendar.
He ended up getting arrested by Amtrak police; handcuffed to a wall in a holding cell inside New York City’s Penn Station, accused of criminal trespass.
Kerzic says he was hardly trespassing because he was taking photos from the train platform; the same one used by thousands of commuters everyday to step on and off the train.
“The only reason they arrested me was because I refused to delete my images,” Kerzic said in a phone interview with Photography is Not a Crime on Friday.
“They never asked me to leave, they never mentioned anything about trespassing until after I was handcuffed in the holding cell.”
In fact, he said, the only thing they told him before handcuffing him was that “it was illegal to take photos of the trains.”
Obviously, there is a lack of communication between Amtrak’s marketing department, which promotes the annual contest, called Picture Our Trains, and its police department, which has a history of harassing photographers for photographing these same trains.
Not much different than the JetBlue incident from earlier this year where JetBlue flight attendants had a woman arrested for refusing to delete a video she filmed in flight while the JetBlue marketing department hosted a contest encouraging passengers to take photos in flight.
While the Amtrak contest page does state that trespassers are subject to arrest and fines, it also states that contestants must also stay in the “public access areas”, which describes the train platform because how else are passengers going to board the train?
As always, Amtrak reminds you to stay out of danger - stay away from tracks and the railroad right-of-way. Do not trespass on railroad property or on private property adjacent to the railroad. Do not climb or approach railroad structures, towers, or wires. Stay in public access areas, and away from railroad structures and moving equipment - in stations, on sidewalks, or in parking lots. All participants expressly release Amtrak from all liability for personal injury and loss or damage to personal property, and expressly assume the risk of harm. Remember, tracks, trestles, yards and equipment are private property - trespassers are subject to arrest and fines.
Also, according to a discussion on this same subject on a website called Trainorders.com, the July 23, 2007 Amtrak weekly newsletter stated there is no prohibition against photography as long as one remains in the public access areas.
“Security: While there is no prohibition against taking
photographs of Amtrak trains, photographs may only be
taken in Amtrak’s public areas, not areas restricted by
signs, barriers or locked entrances. Non-public areas,
such as railroad tracks, trestles, yards and equipment,
are private property; trespassers are subject to arrest.”-Amtrak This Week newsletter, 23JUL07
Furthermore, this same issue arose in Washington DC’s Union Station earlier this year when a TV news crew ended up interviewing a top dog from Amtrak to determine what is the actual policy on photography in train stations. The Amtrak official said that photography is allowed. Meanwhile, a security guard tried to shut the cameraman down.
That incident lead to US Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton to demand clearer policies about photography from the companies that operated within Union Station.
Kerzic’s ordeal began Dec. 21 when he took the train from New Jersey into New York City and debarked at Penn Station. He snapped a photo of the train speeding away, then walked down the platform where he snapped several other photos. He continued taking photos as the platform emptied into Manhattan.
Then he casually walked towards the staircase to make his own way into the city. He stopped before the stairwell to tie his shoe.
When he stood back up, the cops were hovering over him. Two cops and a dog. A black lab with a nose for explosives.
“They asked what I was doing, I said I was taking photos,” he said.
“They said put your bag on the ground and let our dog sniff it.”
He complied and the dog confirmed he was carrying no explosives in his photo bag. Then they asked for his ID. Then to see the photos.
And then they ordered him to delete the photos.
“I said ‘absolutely not’,” said the 50-year-old navy veteran who describes himself as a “conservative republican”.
They told him it was illegal to photograph the trains.
“I asked where is the sign that says that,” he said.
That was when Amtrak police officer James Rusbarsky, badge Number 466, pulled out his handcuffs.
Kerzic said he immediately placed his hands behind his back, but Rusbarsky insisted on placing the handcuffs on him backwards.
“I asked him please put the cuffs on correctly, you’re hurting me, and he refused, tightening them instead,” he said.
Then they took him to the holding cell where they handcuffed him to a wall, and even then, they still slammed the door locked, in case he somehow broke free.
Kerzic said they never accused him of trespassing until after they had him handcuffed and placed in the cell. He believes they only came up with this charge after they realized there was no law in the books that stated that photography was illegal inside a train station.
“At no time did they tell me to leave the platform,” he said. “All they wanted me to do was delete my photos.”
Kerzic was released 90 minutes later with a citation for trespassing.
He has sent out letters complaining of the incident to everybody from New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg to New York Senator Hillary Clinton to everybody in between and above, including Amtrak officials, New Jersey Transit officials and even President Bush himself, in case he feels the urge to do some work before he leaves office next month.
He has also contacted a New York City lawyer who specializes in First Amendment cases and the National Press Photographers Association has also been in contact with him.
And he has been documenting his case on his website, including photos of his injured wrist and the various train platforms as well as the letters he has sent out.
Now he plans to return to Penn Station and photograph the cops who arrested him as well as continue taking photos for the Amtrak contest.
“If I win that contest, I would travel all over the country taking photos,” he said.
And if he wins the lawsuit, he may end up traveling all over the world.
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Related posts:
- Washington DC security guards clueless about photographers’ rights
- Congresswoman steps up for photographers’ rights
- Congresswoman to hold hearings on photographers’ rights
- Congresswoman seeks clarity in photo policy at DC’s Union Station
- NPPA demands Amtrak to stop harassing photographers
- Amtrak to develop new guidelines regarding photography in train stations
- The Colbert Report follows up on Photography is Not a Crime story
- Silence speaks volumes for Amtrak arrestee
- Amtrak arrestee received “five-figure settlement” after Colbert segment aired
- Amtrak “revises” photo policy as Amtrak police continue harassment
- Duane Kerzic takes on Secret Service, NJ parking authority in a single day
160 responses so far ↓
1 RealEstateFeast--South Florida real estate blog // Dec 27, 2008 at 7:51 AM
Uneffingbelievable on so many levels. As a former marketing guy, I cannot for the life of me understand how there could be such poor communication within the organization about the photography contest. At the very least one would expect posters in every station announcing the contest. As a citizen, I am alarmed beyond simple concern that I could be treated like a criminal simply for taking a picture. As I’ve mentioned before, in my current career as a realtor and a blogger I’m often out in public with a camera. This is absolutely chilling.
2 Tony Smith // Dec 27, 2008 at 8:28 AM
You can email the PR people here:
mediarelations@amtrak.com
mediarelationsnyc@amtrak.com
mediarelationschicago@amtrak.com
mediarelationsoakland@amtrak.com
I guess companies need to start giving out “permission slips” with their contests saying “Please don’t arrest me! Your corporate bosses said it was OK!”.
3 Craig Garver // Dec 27, 2008 at 10:51 AM
He will win. He clearly wasn’t trespassing because he rode the train in. He was a paying customer in a public building provided for that very purpose.
He will also win because the US Supreme Court decided this very issue several decades ago. Photography in and of itself has already been ruled constitutional.
This is the very reason I stopped taking pictures as a railfan. When the FBI arrested a man in Ft. Worth on terrorist charges right after 9/11 for simply enjoying watching a freaking train go by, it just wasn’t worth it. Screw Amtrak, their PR calendar, and the rest of them for this after sucking my wallet dry as a taxpayer since 1971 when the corporation was created. This is insane!
I’ve met some really nice railroad cops on the Southern Pacific back in the 1970’s and 80’s - but there are some real nuts out there, as evidenced here. Be careful. They don’t know the law, are privately paid full law enforcement with real police powers. This should be unconstitutional to have that kind of power of arrest with a private company, but it’s not.
4 Steve // Dec 27, 2008 at 11:07 AM
Good thing our Banks, Healthcare, Insurance companies, and Auto industry aren’t run by the same folks who operate Amtrack. Think about it.
5 John Rogers // Dec 27, 2008 at 11:07 AM
Stupid cops, these are the kind of punk cops I just love to hear about getting clipped in the line of duty!
Jess
http://www.online-privacy.se.tc
6 Marie B. // Dec 27, 2008 at 11:12 AM
This is unbelievable. I am hearing more and more about people being treated like criminals for acting like citizens that live in a free country. I think that a lot of the problem lies with giving morons authority when they are unable to make good judgement calls. They seem to lose it when they realize that they have power. It happens everyday in our airports when mothers are asked to drink their babies breastmilk to prove it’s not an explosive and our elderly are searched down to their toes. Meanwhile, real criminals are arrested and released to continue on with their crimes. What has happened to us?
7 Leon // Dec 27, 2008 at 11:35 AM
Steve, I hope you’re being ironic … ? Our non-government Banks, Healthcare, Insurance companies, and Auto industry are all a shambles. Whether an institution is government-run or not has little bearing on power-mad police in any milieu.
Most police in the US are great men and women, but a significant minority are complete a**holes.
8 TDC // Dec 27, 2008 at 11:51 AM
Man. That’s just completely ridiculous. I’ve linked to you from my blog — I hope you get some traffic out of it. Good reporting!
9 DG // Dec 27, 2008 at 12:05 PM
He’s a conservative Republican? Then he totally deserves this treatment as he actively helped to put it into place. Conservatives think you can put laws into place, like wiretapping and homeland security, and that it’s just to get the bad guys. They don’t realize stepping on civil rights means that ultimately THEIR civil rights are trampled.
10 Duane Kerzic // Dec 27, 2008 at 12:09 PM
I called Clifford Cole (212.630.7770) the media relations guy in NYC on Dec 22. I asked him about taking photos on the platforms. He said it’s not allowed by the general public. I asked where it was written that it wasn’t allowed by the general public, he could not say. He said if I had a Working Press Credential an Amtrak employee would escort me. Basically told me I had to take his word. I pointed out that the general public takes photos on the platform in Penn Station NY all the time and Amtraks policy about having a ticket, which I’m not sure is legal either. He said it’s not allowed for the general public to take photos on the platforms. I asked again where is it written. He said we are just going to go around in circles and hung up on me.
I was also told to call John Kalapos at 215.349.1238 but he never called me back.
I left a message for Michael Gallagher (212.630.7770) the Station Manager of Penn Station which he failed to return.
I had tickets, lots of them. The cops did ask to see my ticket, which had been collected on the train I was riding when I came in, so I showed them my stack of tickets, from a ten trip purchase.
I believe that a big part of the reason for attempt to ban photos is that Amtrak doesn’t want photos documenting the sorry condition they keep our rail roads in. If there was an accident and they are trying to blame it on an employee and you have a photo of a signal in disrepair that would make Amtrak Management look bad. You also might send that photo off to someone that has oversight of the company and someone could get in trouble. So even though there is not a law, harass the public and do all you can to prevent them from exercising their first amendment rights.
Cops and officials don’t like photos because photos don’t lie. A friend of mine that’s an attorney has a saying, “how do you know when a cop is lying? when his lips are moving.” It’s sad that while there are many really good officers thre are also so many that aren’t good.
One other thing. We really don’t want cops being allowed to make judgement calls in the street. We never want the enforcers judging. The founding fathers seperated the powers for a reason. The cops where enforcing a non-existant law, a law I guess they think should be there, which means they are acting as judgement. If they had enfoced the laws that exist I would have been left alone or at most told the platform is now closed to the public you have to leave.
11 John Hunter // Dec 27, 2008 at 1:58 PM
Thanks, we need people who care about liberty to take stands and publicize the actions of the state to eliminate liberty. It is unfortunate we have allowed the situation to deteriorate so far, but now we need people to assure we do not lose our freedom because those in authority decide they are not bound by laws.
12 Greg in Illinois // Dec 27, 2008 at 2:24 PM
Here’s a good piece on the fight over this in Illinois
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,1221026
You should look up Mr. Zullig
13 Pigs // Dec 27, 2008 at 2:38 PM
“The cops where enforcing a non-existant law, a law I guess they think should be there, which means they are acting as judgement. If they had enfoced the laws that exist I would have been left alone or at most told the platform is now closed to the public you have to leave.”
It’s worse than that. They’re legislating, judging, and enforcing. Republicans cry about judges legislating from the bench but legislating from behind a badge is more frequent and more harmful. At least judges are required to have some education. Cops need a GED and don’t get hired if their IQ is anywhere above room temperature because they might cause trouble for the brotherhood. Their jobs are even more secure than those of judges due to their corrupt unions and code of silence.
14 Bud // Dec 27, 2008 at 5:25 PM
I have just Stumbled in here, and I am very sickened by the treatment of this man, but also I am sickened by the comments of those who say he is a Conservative Republican and he deserves this treatment.
I am a Conservative Republican, and quite frankly never cared for any abuse of authority no matter who it is directed to, and for the record it wasn’t more than likely other conservative Republicans that where abusing their authority the area that this man was taking pictures is known for being hard blue “Democrat” we have the same issue in the Pacific Northwest everyone is hard blue and also very abusive of their authority, California is another great example and one of the worst states to get pulled over in.
Lets not lose our minds in the name of partisan ism you have your beliefs and I have mine just because I believe in smaller Government, less taxes and the right to worship and believe the way I want to and believe that babies are precious and should be protected in the mothers womb doesn’t mean I deserve to have a rogue cop abuse me.
I am a veteran also I would stand for you, could you at least be civil?
15 Scott // Dec 27, 2008 at 6:53 PM
Yes, you know it is entirely possible that the arresting Amtrak cops were democrats, you never know. It’s not just liberals who deserve the rights granted by the constitution, it’s everybody. But man, why do so many cops they think they have absolute power? I don’t understand it.
16 PDBreske // Dec 27, 2008 at 7:10 PM
Mr. Kerzic,
You said in your reply here:
“One other thing. We really don’t want cops being allowed to make judgement calls in the street. We never want the enforcers judging.”
Really? Is this what we really want? If no law enforcement officer is ever allowed to make a judgement call, then we can look forward to a couple being pulled over and issued a citation for speeding to the hospital when the wife is in labor. “Sorry, I can’t let you go. Speeding is against the law.”
Or how about the day someone’s kid is caught on the front step drinking a beer while the parent’s are inside having dinner? Hmm, looks like Mom and Dad are going to jail for contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
What these Amtrak officers did wasn’t a bad judgement call, it was ignorance of the law. There is a huge difference.
17 Enhager // Dec 27, 2008 at 7:51 PM
We really need the new york times to follow up on this story. who should we write?
18 Bud // Dec 27, 2008 at 8:09 PM
As much as I am for smaller Government there needs to be a civil power that balances out the powers to be, such as when you get a ticket quite often it is already decided that you are guilty because the policemen says so and the Judge has already granted credit to the officer.
This is the kind of network left unchecked that always grows into an abusive Government, and this my friends is why our fore Fathers made sure we would have the right to Arms not just for self protection but protection from a Government that has gotten out of hand, we have seen many cases of police brutality in the last couple years from Youtube videos showing a kid being harassed by the local policeman being abusive and threatening and even caught lying by a hidden camera to a cop in Illinois who has obviously “OJ’d” his wife and more than likely the last couple wives. but lets not forget the elephant in the room, some of these guys have seen too many a thug or “gangsta” being protected by the system too…
so where does it end? many a town or city has so many gated neighborhoods in the name of security, why? because we have let way too many ner dowells out when they should have been put away for life or at least deported.
19 Carlos Miller // Dec 27, 2008 at 8:19 PM
DG,
I’m a liberal democrat but from my experience writing this blog since April 2007, there are many conservative republicans who do not support these types of First Amendment abuses, no matter who they are against.
I think the ones you are talking about are the Neocons, whom I described in this post.
http://carlosmiller.com/2008/06/19/neocon-repugs-salute-state-while-trampling-constitution/
20 Carlos Miller // Dec 27, 2008 at 8:30 PM
Enhager,
The New York Times building is less than a mile from Penn Station.
I’m in Miami.
If they haven’t gotten wind of this story yet, then I don’t know what else needs to be done.
21 genewitch // Dec 28, 2008 at 6:34 AM
PDBreske:
You said you want a cop to let someone speeding go; if the husband is driving the wife who is in labor to the hospital?
Our society in america has ambulances. That have sirens and lights and a myriad of medical equipment. 99.99999% of the time, waiting for an ambulance is the right thing to do.
So to answer your question, NO I DO NOT WANT COPS MAKING JUDGMENT CALLS.
Carlos, i’m starting to not be surprised when i hear these stories. the common thread appears to be “you’re not allowed/delete those photos” and then a trumped up charge being slapped on the person for having the audacity to exercise their first amendment rights.
As a matter of fact, can we just make that the motto, somewhere?
“You had the audacity to exercise your first amendment rights and legally refuse our abuse of power! BAM! TRESPASS/RESISTING ARREST!”
It has a ring, yes?
22 genewitch // Dec 28, 2008 at 6:41 AM
and what’s with the smiley face at the bottom of your page?
23 Avijit Roy // Dec 28, 2008 at 9:57 AM
I am interested to participated to your photo contest
Kindely informed me
Thanking you
Avijit
24 JEL // Dec 28, 2008 at 10:31 AM
I work for a local transit agency. During a recent “Terrorist Awareness” training they instructed us to be vigilant of people taking pictures of our buses and trains. I inquired about policy on photography. Our “head of security” stated: Right now the law does not allow us to prohibit photography in public places. But these “nutjobs” and whackos” will get what’s coming to them one day! In the mean time, harass them until they leave the property.
Good luck, Mr. Kerzic.
25 Carlos Miller // Dec 28, 2008 at 12:25 PM
Genewitch,
A smiley on the bottom of my page? I don’t see it.
Or maybe you’re talking about the Reddit submission icon.
JEL,
It’s time to harass them back by photographing these security guards and cops and posting their photos on the internet.
26 genewitch // Dec 28, 2008 at 12:48 PM
Carlos - it’s under the © tag. Very bottom, center. It’s so tiny i’ve never seen it.
it’s
but rotated 90 degrees clockwise.
it would fit inside ^ that zero!
It’s irrelevant, but i was wondering if it was new or not.
27 genewitch // Dec 28, 2008 at 12:48 PM
colon Close Parenthesis.
Not the little graphic.
28 Carlos Miller // Dec 28, 2008 at 12:54 PM
It’s not on my screen. Maybe it’s your browser. What are you using?
29 spokker // Dec 28, 2008 at 2:51 PM
“I am interested to participated to your photo contest
Kindely informed me
Thanking you
Avijit”
Uh, I would hold off on that idea, Avijit.
If Kerzic got arrested for taking photos at Penn Station, I think this dude is going to get water boarded for it…
30 Carlos Miller // Dec 28, 2008 at 6:20 PM
That’s the weirdest thing. I use Firefox and I don’t have that smiley on my screen.
Is it just on this site?
31 Carlos Miller // Dec 28, 2008 at 6:27 PM
When I logged out of my Wordpress account, and pulled up this page, I could see the little smiley, but when I log back on, the smiley disappears.
Maybe it has something to do with the new comment subscription function.
32 Spokker // Dec 28, 2008 at 10:32 PM
The sentiment I see being displayed at railroad forums is that the victim of wrongful arrest “should have known better”. Here are some of the posts from a prominent railroad forum.
They basically believe he’s a trouble maker because he’s been arrested before. Sorry, but no matter how many times the guy is arrested for photography in a public place, each arrest is wrong.
Thanks for standing up for your rights, Kerzic. You are one crazy bastard, and I admire you for it!
33 Duane Kerzic // Dec 28, 2008 at 11:18 PM
JEL said:
“Our “head of security” stated: Right now the law does not allow us to prohibit photography in public places. But these “nutjobs” and whackos” will get what’s coming to them one day! In the mean time, harass them until they leave the property.”
Hopefully soon the “nut job”. “whacko” head of security at your transit agency will get what’s coming to him like a boot out the door and a good tip not to let the door hit him in the A$$ on the way out. Photography is protected by the Constitution, that is not changing any time soon. If you want to send me an email I might have to travel to your town and give your head of security a helping hand on finding a new job.
I for one am not going to put up with it any longer. I’m sure there are many others that will not put up with it either. If people want to take photos for terroristic planning purposes they aren’t going to be using equipment that can be surveilled by the authorities with ease. Ban’s on photography will never stop that photo taking. These bans only result in honest people getting harassed and abused. They also result in the limiting of civil liberties of all of us. I volunteered to be an officer in the US Navy to protect those liberties from enemies foreign and domestic. I’m not going to allow those liberties to be taken from me by our government without a political fight. John McCann got it right, “Stand up and fight”.
This terrorist crap is slowly invading our liberties in all kinds of places. Do you really feel any safer because you take off your shoes before you get on an airplane? Do you feel any safer as they search 90 year old citizens in wheel chairs before they get on airplanes. It’s horrendous what they subject those people to, watch some time. If you have an artificial knee, let me see the scar everytime. I have a friend that flies all the time for his job, he has to drop his trousers every time he gets on an airplane so they can see his scar.
Try reentering the country on a motorcycle from Canada or Mexico. I travel extensively on adventure motorcycles. I come back from Canada or Mexico they assume I’m some kind of drug trafficker or something at the border. Where are you going, where are you coming from, what did you do when you were in where ever. I was there for 90 days do you want a day by day recap? Are you bringing any soil back from where ever? Ahh, the motorcycle and my clothing is covered in soil, how do i answer that question? I always want to say, “None of your god damned business what I did or where I was, I didn’t break any laws of either country while I was away.” They go through all my stuff. Of course they never find anything, duh. But they mess up how it’s packed and delay me for a long time. They also mess with some expensive camera stuff I don’t want them to break. When they see the camera equipment they assume I’m a child pornographer or something. They look through my photos. They treat me with disrespect and expect me to put up with it and not mind as they keep us safe. It’s not a right to travel across international borders they tell me. Don’t like it don’t leave the country. I mostly wonder what these people dream about at night. Cause I sleep without any problems.
They also tell you no photos at the border all the time. Which is also crap, I’ve had border agents from other countries actually offer to take my photo standing on the borders with one foot in each country.
No I’m sure I’ll get added to the ‘no fly’ list or some other ‘terrorist watch’ list so they can really mess with me all the time. Perhaps the FBI will be knocking on my door tomorrow, while they should be investigating Officer Rusbarsky’s violation of my civil rights, they will be investigating the photos I legally took in Penn Station NY. Maybe I’m being paranoid, maybe I’m not. Time will tell.
One last thing. I’ve worn the target before. I’ll wear it again. There is some satisfaction that comes after you fight a good fight and win.
34 KMG // Dec 29, 2008 at 2:09 AM
Right on Duane. Good for you standing up for your constitutional rights. And for everyone else here arguing whether Republicans or Democrats are the problem. This isn’t a partisan issue. This is an issue with police abusing their positions of authority and violating our civil rights.
This is about police not doing their jobs correctly and wasting our tax money on bogus arrests of innocent people when they could be out catching real criminals. This is about our rights to photograph, stand, speak up and express ourselves freely in a public place. This is about the freedom and justice we’re suppose to promote in our supposedly ‘free’ nation.
Cops need to follow the laws like everyone else and need to enforce them rather than aiding big businesses like Amtrak in harassing and mistreating the public and their rights. This is about bringing an end to neo-con and corporatist ideals and moving back to protecting our constitution, our democratic republic, and our freedoms as US citizens.
Way to go Duane. I may be a Democrat but I think we share a lot of similarities when it comes to standing up for what our country and its constitution are supposed to represent.
35 roylee // Dec 29, 2008 at 2:07 PM
it too bad when deputy’s abuse the authority
of their badge and become mently abussive
over nice train photographers.this need to be taken to the highiest court of the land.what hard this the nice person do for a citation as trespasing in a public place.this is mentle damage
and the police should be dismissed or go to a public relactions obediance course.to learn how be peace officer’s. our freedom of take photography for a hobbie is in trouble
36 roylee // Dec 29, 2008 at 2:12 PM
spelling correction paragraph four
whay sould this nice person be given a citation
37 roylee // Dec 29, 2008 at 2:13 PM
my type board is messing up sorry of misspelled word
38 Scott Bourne // Dec 29, 2008 at 4:35 PM
As usual, the cops in New York are acting like thugs and a photographer is on the receiving end. These sorts of situations call for strong action. And it looks like the photographer is taking that action. But the rest of us can help. We should draw attention to the fact that in New York, the only difference between the cops and the criminals is that the criminals have been caught. Also, Amtrak doesn’t deserve public money or our business if this is how they plan to do business. Accordingly, I am contacting all of my federal representatives to implore them to terminate Amtrak funding. There’s no use in us giving tax money to a bunch of common hoodlums. I also urge all photographers who have ties to attorneys to start getting the lawyers involved. The government doesn’t respect our rights, but they do worry about the money that they have to pay out when they get caught acting like thugs.
39 Chuck W. // Jan 1, 2009 at 12:18 AM
This issue keeps popping up ever since 9-11, and yet no-one seems to set down some basic, standard rules for where and when you can photograph a train. It various from state to state, railroad to railroad.
It’s time not only for Amtrak, but for the FRA or some higher authority to set up the guidelines so everyone knows.
Maybe get some Senator, like Wisconsin’s Herb Kohl (who has been there several years and done nothing of note) to get on the stick, put his name on a Bill and get it done.
40 David // Jan 1, 2009 at 2:28 PM
If everyone is absolutely certain that the law is on the side of Mr. Kerzic (consult an attorney first), I think the best thing to do is stage a perfectly legal “protest”:
Invite many (a hundred? hundreds??) photographers to the train station in question and simultaneously begin taking photographs. If security guards begin harassing individuals, there will be many more there to document it with photos and videos. If the guards do nothing, maybe someone can attempt to interview them on video (start a nonchalant, touristy-style interview to disarm them) and inquire about photography rules/laws.
It may also be worthwhile to have every photographer carry a copy of the applicable laws/rules detailing the legality of their activity.
One person against a group of guards is an invitation for abuse. A larger group against a group of guards is a little more intimidating and *may* make the guards think a little more about their actions.
41 Mike in NoVA // Jan 1, 2009 at 7:32 PM
I have a question about the details about the dog and Mr. kerzic’s bag being sniff searched. This detail was not in his complaint letters or on his website. Did this detail come from Mr Kerzic? Only reason I am asking is that I reported this on the photography forum I frequent and someone mentioned the discrepency.
42 Carlos Miller // Jan 1, 2009 at 8:20 PM
Mike in NoVA,
I interviewed Kerzic by phone and he told me that information.
43 Mike in NoVA // Jan 1, 2009 at 8:42 PM
Thanks Carlos…
44 Duane Kerzic // Jan 1, 2009 at 10:22 PM
Mike in NoVA, which photography forum. They can ask me if they like, I’ll join and answer questions. Carlos with an eye for a story thought the dog was important. I didn’t care that much about the dog, as best I know we have to tolerate being checked for bombs and the like in the station.
Also Amtrak or more correctly the National Railroad Passenger Corp. is a publicly owned private corporation. So I was actually on private property. This is where it gets tricky however. The owners of private property can limit certain freedoms on their property. Try to run a pro life or choice protest in Macy’s for instance. You’ll be asked to leave and if you don’t you’re trespassing. However some Amtrak property is considered to be a public forum, just like the street or a park, and First Amendment Activities are allowed on Amtrak property as long as you follow some simple rules, they even have a web page about it. Same thing with taking photos inside the store, they can ask you to leave and you have to, anything that can be seen from the street is fair game however. The same is true of rail lines. If you are standing on private (with permission) or public property adjacent to the rail line and can see the rail line you can take a photo of it. I’m not advocating standing on the RR right of way, which is private property, where you can be hit by a train.
I got to the platfrom aboard a NJ Transit Train so I had permission to be there. NJ Transit allows photography on all publicly accessible portions of it’s property. How long that permission to be on the platform lasts I don’t know, I can’t find anything that says and there aren’t any signs. So while there are some ‘No Trespassing’ signs around, but not where I was, how do you know when they apply to you. The issue wasn’t about trespassing untill I refused to delete my photographs and in the end my photos were not deleted. I was harassed, embaressed, not allowed to use the bathroom and a bunch of other stuff. This is how bullies act.
Amtrak is required to have a regulation regarding photography on it’s property. It can’t be arbitrary as in “no photography allowed any place”. NJ Transit and the MTA tried to put such a regulation in place. They were threatened with law suits from various groups questioning the Constitutionality of such regulations and decided that bans on photography were not in the public interest and did not enact them. However some of the employees of these agencies still harass people for taking photos. This harassment needs to be reported to the ACLU branches and the NPPA.
Amtrak is required by executive order and 49 CFR 701 to have it’s rules, manuals, regulations and other things it uses in dealing with the public published in the public domain. There is no rule about photography on it’s property I have been able to find to date. I have made a FOIA request to Amtrak to provide all such rules. It’s also my belief that what portions of the station are open and not open to the public and the other things I have asked for must also be in the public domain, yet I have not been able to find them. My letters have not been answered to date.
Hope this helps.
45 Carlos Miller // Jan 1, 2009 at 10:26 PM
Here you go, Duane.
http://pentaxforums.com/forums/general-talk/45488-another-innocent-photographer-arrested-nyc.html
46 Mike in NoVA // Jan 2, 2009 at 12:51 PM
Carlos & Duane,
Glad y’all found the forum and thanks for the comments you’ve both contributed there. I hope my initial summary and subsequent clarifications have been accurate and that I have not mis-stated any of the basic facts in question. If there is anything I can do to support any of the actions or claims please let me know.
We seriously need to begin standing up to these abuses and misuses of authority against photographers.
Mike
47 Mike in NoVA // Jan 2, 2009 at 12:53 PM
p.s. I have also posted a heads up about this incident at the DC Photo Rights Flickr page. We’ve had our own run ins with Amtrak thoug most of our issues were with an over-zealous mall operator…
http://www.flickr.com/groups/dcphotorights/discuss/72157611975551065/
48 Carlos Miller // Jan 2, 2009 at 1:04 PM
Mike,
You didn’t misstate anything. But some people are always going to look for holes in an argument.
49 Tim // Jan 2, 2009 at 7:35 PM
Carlos-
I think the smiley you and genewitch are discussing is a piece of the site statistics tracker… I see it too.
Tim
50 Steve // Jan 2, 2009 at 8:01 PM
As a retired NYPD officer and professional photographer I am so disgusted as to what they are hiring now and their lack of knowledge of the rules, regulations and the laws. I myself have been stopped for photographing the NY subways and when I identify myself I am told that I should know better. Know better? What , that I am exercising my 1st Ammed. right and furthermore the NYC rules and regulations do not prohibit photography. I carry a copy of if with me in my camera bag all the time now.
51 Carlos Miller // Jan 2, 2009 at 9:08 PM
Tim,
I believe you’re right because when I log out of my Wordpress account, I can see the smiley, but not when I’m logged in.
And I have it set up where it doesn’t record my visits in the statistics counter.
Steve,
Is it just a lack of training nowadays in the police departments?
It seems like in every industry, standards and training have been slashed for budget reasons.
So it wouldn’t surprise me if police departments are going through the same deal.
52 Carlos Miller // Jan 2, 2009 at 10:00 PM
There is an interesting debate going on in the Pentax forums over this incident.
http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-talk/45488-another-innocent-photographer-arrested-nyc-4.html
And I just want to post one of the comments made from a guy named Bruce who goes by the username Baltochef920 because it is perfectly stated:
Exactly what does a No Trespassing sign signify??..
Traditionally in the United States it has meant that a particular piece of property was off limits to any person that did not have the landowners, or in certain cases, the owner of the building’s permission to be in, or on the property..That permission could be verbal, or written..In and on public spaces, even privately owned ones, that permission is implicit..It is implicit because the private business, or government, wants the public to congregate in that place for the express purpose of commercial gain..
Certain buildings are owned by one person, while the ground that the building is located on is owned by another person altogether..In cases like this the owner of the building is generally the one that is determining what rules will apply to the building itself..Things like municipal stadiums that were only in public use a small part of the year would be posted on the walls and fences..These situations were easy to figure out, even for a child..
I am 54 years old..When I was a child it was exceptionally rare to see a No Trespassing sign anyplace but on a locked, untenanted building, or a fenced in piece of property..You never saw No Trespassing signs in public places like Penn Station, except for those areas that were easily recognized as being off limits, such as the tracks..Doors leading to places where a building owner wanted to restrict access were posted Keep Out, Restricted Access, Authorized Personnel Only, Employee’s Only, or No Trespassing Past This Point..As I think back to my youth I cannot remember any No Trespassing sign being posted where it was not extremely easy to understand what part of a property was being declared off limits by its owner..
After skateboarding started to become very popular was when one started to see these No Trespassing signs being posted in places where the public congregated daily for some legitimate purpose..No Loitering signs, No Vagrancy signs, No Bicycles signs, and No Skateboarding signs started popping up all over the place, usually accompanied by a statement on the sign designating certain hours when these restrictions were to be obeyed..The most common places to see these signs were in, and around, grocery stores and other businesses with wide expanses of concrete sidewalks that did not want their clientele to be bothered..
Places like Penn Station that are in operation 24/7/365 are usually installing these No Trespassing signs in order to try and deal with the homeless, with vagrants, with panhandlers, and with anyone else that they deem undesirable..Building owners, security guards, cops, government agencies all love the No Trespassing sign because it is so damned non-specific..It allows them to deal with a multitude of different situations without having to be specific when they are trying to force someone off of their property..Most adults understand what the concept of a No Trespassing sign is..The trouble is that it is too easily misinterpreted by anyone in authority that chooses to abuse the authority implied in a No Trespassing sign..
As regards to Mr. Kerzic it is very obvious to anyone that wishes to look clearly at the situation that he was well within his rights to be in Penn Station, and to take photographs while he was there..He had tickets in his possession indicating that he was la legitimate paying passenger..The were no signs posted stating No Photography..Even if he had walked into Penn Station off of the streets of New York City carrying a dSLR to meet someone that was arriving on a train, he still had a legitimate, legal right to be there, and to photograph while he was waiting..
Next, I will discuss the real problem with Stewart’s, and everyone else’s, assumptions that Mr. Kerzic was in the wrong..What is the single overriding purpose for Penn Station’s existence??..It exists as a covered terminal to allow the arrival and departure of human beings who are riding passenger trains, and who are traveling to and from New York City..Nothing more, and nothing less..Any other activity conducted there is ancillary to passenger travel..It has been accepted for centuries that anyplace that humans congregate in order to facilitate the movement of people or freight to and from one place to another; that other humans would be welcome to wait there for their arrival, or to see them off at their departure..A precedent has been set long ago allowing someone off the street to wait around for considerable periods of time in a rail passenger terminal seemingly doing nothing..As a result, even if Mr Kerzic had not had the tickets in his pockets, he still would have had a legitimate right to be in the station..In my opinion he would have the right to hang around for up to an hour, even taking photographs, as long as he was not interfering with the business of rail travel..
The entire issue of the photo contest pretty much negates any objections that the police might have for anyone wanting to hang around taking photographs..Since the contest has been in existence for multiple years running, it is very difficult for any AmTrak police officer to claim that they are unaware of the contest..Since Penn Station is leased by AmTrak, since their trains do enter the station, since Penn Station is a public space, albeit privately owned, it is very hard to see how AmTrak can deny anyone the right to enter the station to take photographs..
Penn Station is a public place..As a result of being a public place it is very hard to prevent someone from entering the station..How long does a person have to be in Penn Station without departing, or arriving, on a train before they are considered to be trespassing??..As long as there is no accepted policy to try and determine exactly how to define trespassing within Penn Station, these kinds of transgressions will continue to happen..That is exactly the way that management wants things to continue..They presently have an incredible amount of leeway to harass people that are legitimately in Penn Station..By allowing things to remain so vague they are giving the various police forces, especially the AmTrak police, a very wide mandate to stop and harass anyone using a camera in Penn Station..
The only way for these erosions of our First Amendment rights to cease is for every photographer to stand up and fight for them..We have to be willing to get arrested and go to court if things are going to change..If you do not want to do this I suggest that you sell off all of your camera equipment and find another hobby..
What we all must not forget is that the entire incident between Mr. Kerzic and the AmTrak police started with an illegal act..The illegal act was not Mr. Kerzic trespassing, as he had valid tickets in his possession..The illegal act was the two AmTrak police officers demanding that a photographer delete images from the memory card in his camera..This is something that a police officer is not legally empowered to do.. If these officers truly thought that Mr. Kerzic had committed a crime through photography, he should have been arrested..His camera containing the memory card should have been booked into evidence..The images on that memory card should have been preserved for a trial..That he was not arrested says several things..First, that they were derelict in their duty..Second, that he never committed a crime in the first place, and that they were merely f**king with him..
Photography, with a very few exceptions (none of which apply here) is a legal activity protected by the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States..As has already been stated, only a judge ruling in the sentencing phase of a trial has the legal right to order images deleted from a memory card, or for undeveloped film, negatives, slides, or prints to be destroyed..Until the time that a judge does so order such destruction, the images on the memory card, or on any undeveloped film, are the intellectual property of the photographer..Until a judge says otherwise, only the photographer has the right to decide what to do with their property..
Seven plus years after 9-11 I refuse to believe that the management of AmTrak is unaware of the First Amendment, especially as pertains to the right to photograph in public..All government agencies like the current state of affairs as it has allowed them to get away with things that are illegal that they would have had a very hard time getting away with before 9-11..As someone else already pointed out, governments, police forces, and businesses hate photography..Because a photograph, still or video, is a permanent record of the past..As long as that photographic record validates the position of the authority in question, things are just rosy..The nanosecond that the photographic record shows off the authority in question in a bad light, then their attitude flip-flops 180 degrees..
The Patriot Act does not specifically target photography..If it had done so the media would have raised such a fuss that it never would have passed..The modern media’s entire justification for being is predicated on still and video images..Without them they would virtually cease to exist..As photographers we have allowed various government agencies to suborn our right to photograph in public since 9-11.. It is high time that all photographers realized that this is not a game..That our government is bent on removing the right to photograph in public from anyone but those that they deem suitable..And, that means anyone that might show them up in a bad light..Which means all of us..
Bruce
53 Spokker // Jan 2, 2009 at 10:47 PM
The only quasi-public place I have ever felt 100% comfortable taking photos was at Disneyland. Here is a place that I’ve shot up and down. I would set up my mini-tripod on trash cans for long exposure shots at night and simply lounge around shooting whatever I wanted, an activity that probably would have gotten me the death penalty in New York or DC.
54 Carlos Miller // Jan 3, 2009 at 4:33 PM
Duane,
Here is another thread discussing your arrest.
http://pirate4×4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=746498
Spokker,
And be assured that in Disneyland they are watching every single move you do as you do it, so it’s not that they are not aware of your actions.
55 Mike in NoVA // Jan 3, 2009 at 6:11 PM
I forgot to tell y’all. The arrest is also being discussed on Model Mayhem at:
http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=391469
Non-members can read the thread but cannot post. Membership is moderated with a portfolio requirement.
56 Spokker // Jan 3, 2009 at 9:10 PM
Carlos, I’m sure they are, but I’ve never heard of anyone being harassed there for taking photos or “lingering” for too long. They even let you take photos 1 hour after it closes, though they tend to gently scoot you out of the back area of the park sooner though. Security is all around pretty friendly there.
57 Debbie // Jan 3, 2009 at 11:48 PM
Also discussed in http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=624159
58 Contest // Jan 4, 2009 at 12:53 PM
Is the Amtrak photo contest going on now? The link takes you to a site that says the contest ended in July.
59 Mike Jones // Jan 4, 2009 at 2:54 PM
“said the 50-year-old navy veteran who describes himself as a “conservative republican”.”
Conservative Republicans are largely responsible for creating the police state mentality and security hysteria we all have to live with now. Let Duane Kerzic taste some of his own medicine. Consider it poetic justice.
60 Mike Jones // Jan 4, 2009 at 2:57 PM
“said the 50-year-old navy veteran who describes himself as a “conservative republican”.”
Conservative Republicans are largely responsible for creating the police state mentality and security hysteria we all have to live with now. Let Duane Kerzic taste some of his own medicine, and that people like him realize that “liberal” is not a dirty word. Consider it poetic justice.
61 CaptainBeefheart // Jan 4, 2009 at 6:20 PM
Anyone notice that the contest ended on 7/11/2008?
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/am2Copy/Hot_Deals_Page&c=am2Copy&cid=1093554057903&ssid=224
The “Picture Our Train” 2009 wall calendar photo contest has ended. Thank you for your interest.
Enter the Amtrak Picture Our Train 2009 Wall Calendar Photo Contest and your photograph could adorn the walls of train lovers everywhere.
Enter your photo of an Amtrak train (sporting the current logo) to have your image featured on the Amtrak 2009 wall calendar.
The First Prize Winner will receive a $1,000 Amtrak travel voucher and a photo credit on the calendar. The Second through Fifth Prize Winners will also receive Amtrak travel vouchers.
Contest ends July 11, 2008.
62 Carlos Miller // Jan 4, 2009 at 6:28 PM
The contest has been held every year for the last five years.
They have not announced the contest for 2009 yet because they usually announce it between Feb. and May.
All Kerzic was trying to do was get a head start on the contest.
63 Duane Kerzic // Jan 4, 2009 at 7:20 PM
How can you help. Write to your President, members of his cabinet, Senators, Congressmen, Governors, Mayors, and anyone that you voted for about this or how you have been personally effected because of incidents like this. That’s what I did, I sent letters to Joseph Boardman the CEO of Amtrak and copied everyone I could think of that could have any type of interest as an elected official. It doesn’t take long to write a letter, they actually make a huge difference. Things I’ve written about in the past have been changed for the better. Most politicians have email addresses posted online or a webform to send message on their websites. Use them. Send copies to the people I’ve listed below. Letters are more efffective then 100 people showing up in Pennsylvania Station with cameras. I will try to write some sample letters and post them to make it eaiser. You can also print out my letters to Mr. Boardman and just put a short note saying I want to be sure you are aware of this and send it off. You can email links to my page here to your representitives. You can email links to my page to Amtrak Media Relations National and NY. Very easy to do. Thanks for your help.
64 Mr. Reality // Jan 4, 2009 at 7:22 PM
There’s really just one law when it comes to cops- the cop is always right. Even when the video proves that s/he’s wrong. Conservative Republican caught in the web, eh? Now you know how the rest of us feel.
65 TBT // Jan 4, 2009 at 7:22 PM
The same folks that built a wall around Gaza are the ones behind the destruction of the Constitution. Its time to put down the camera and pick up the musket.
66 Spokker // Jan 4, 2009 at 7:57 PM
The contest is over, therefore the police were correct in detaining the guy.
You may only take photographs during contest periods. I thought everyone knew this.
67 Carlos Miller // Jan 4, 2009 at 8:06 PM
So he was arrested for not following the rules of the contest?
Pretty harsh.
68 Spokker // Jan 4, 2009 at 8:36 PM
Well, his photos would not have come out well in Penn Station anyway. I, the master of railroad photography, knows that he would have never won the contest anyway, therefore he’s a jerk and I don’t care what happens to him.
This is what some people in the railfan community actually think.
69 chicopanther // Jan 4, 2009 at 10:03 PM
Those so-called “cops” should be demoted to having to pump out the toilets on Amtrak trains. That’s all they’re fit for, since they have the same material for “brains” as what they’d be pumping out of those tanks.
chicopanther
70 Richard Walker // Jan 4, 2009 at 10:31 PM
Wow, the irony. Great to see Scott Bourne and retired NYPD officer “Steve” in the comments. Updating my post about last August’s blintfest in SF. Thomas Hawk is missing (in the comments
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