Amtrak photo contestant arrested by Amtrak police in NYC’s Penn Station

December 27th, 2008 · 170 Comments

amtrak

Photographer Duane Kerzic was standing in the area marked in red at NYC’s Penn Station when he was arrested for trespassing last week. Those doors lead to a stairwell out into the city

Update: The Colbert Report follows up the story with a hilarious segment on Feb. 2, 2009. Check out the video here.

Update: Silence speaks volumes for Amtrak arrestee

By Carlos Miller
Armed with his Canon 5D and his new Lensbaby lens, photographer Duane Kerzic set out to win Amtrak’s annual photo contest this week, hoping to win $1,000 in travel vouchers and have his photo published in Amtrak’s annual calendar.

He ended up getting arrested by Amtrak police; handcuffed to a wall in a holding cell inside New York City’s Penn Station, accused of criminal trespass.

Kerzic says he was hardly trespassing because he was taking photos from the train platform; the same one used by thousands of commuters everyday to step on and off the train.

“The only reason they arrested me was because I refused to delete my images,” Kerzic said in a phone interview with Photography is Not a Crime on Friday.

“They never asked me to leave, they never mentioned anything about trespassing until after I was handcuffed in the holding cell.”

In fact, he said, the only thing they told him before handcuffing him was that “it was illegal to take photos of the trains.”

Obviously, there is a lack of communication between Amtrak’s marketing department, which promotes the annual contest, called Picture Our Trains, and its police department, which has a history of harassing photographers for photographing these same trains.

Not much different than the JetBlue incident from earlier this year where JetBlue flight attendants had a woman arrested for refusing to delete a video she filmed in flight while the JetBlue marketing department hosted a contest encouraging passengers to take photos in flight.

While the Amtrak contest page does state that trespassers are subject to arrest and fines, it also states that contestants must also stay in the “public access areas”, which describes the train platform because how else are passengers going to board the train?

As always, Amtrak reminds you to stay out of danger – stay away from tracks and the railroad right-of-way. Do not trespass on railroad property or on private property adjacent to the railroad. Do not climb or approach railroad structures, towers, or wires. Stay in public access areas, and away from railroad structures and moving equipment – in stations, on sidewalks, or in parking lots. All participants expressly release Amtrak from all liability for personal injury and loss or damage to personal property, and expressly assume the risk of harm. Remember, tracks, trestles, yards and equipment are private property – trespassers are subject to arrest and fines.

Also, according to a discussion on this same subject on a website called Trainorders.com, the July 23, 2007 Amtrak weekly newsletter stated there is no prohibition against photography as long as one remains in the public access areas.

“Security: While there is no prohibition against taking
photographs of Amtrak trains, photographs may only be
taken in Amtrak’s public areas, not areas restricted by
signs, barriers or locked entrances. Non-public areas,
such as railroad tracks, trestles, yards and equipment,
are private property; trespassers are subject to arrest.”

-Amtrak This Week newsletter, 23JUL07

Furthermore, this same issue arose in Washington DC’s Union Station earlier this year when a TV news crew ended up interviewing a top dog from Amtrak to determine what is the actual policy on photography in train stations. The Amtrak official said that photography is allowed. Meanwhile, a security guard tried to shut the cameraman down.

That incident lead to US Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton to demand clearer policies about photography from the companies that operated within Union Station.

Kerzic’s ordeal began Dec. 21 when he took the train from New Jersey into New York City and debarked at Penn Station. He snapped a photo of the train speeding away, then walked down the platform where he snapped several other photos. He continued taking photos as the platform emptied into Manhattan.

Then he casually walked towards the staircase to make his own way into the city. He stopped before the stairwell to tie his shoe.

When he stood back up, the cops were hovering over him. Two cops and a dog. A black lab with a nose for explosives.

“They asked what I was doing, I said I was taking photos,” he said.

“They said put your bag on the ground and let our dog sniff it.”

He complied and the dog confirmed he was carrying no explosives in his photo bag. Then they asked for his ID. Then to see the photos.

And then they ordered him to delete the photos.

“I said ‘absolutely not’,” said the 50-year-old navy veteran who describes himself as a “conservative republican”.

They told him it was illegal to photograph the trains.

“I asked where is the sign that says that,” he said.

That was when Amtrak police officer James Rusbarsky, badge Number 466, pulled out his handcuffs.

Kerzic said he immediately placed his hands behind his back, but Rusbarsky insisted on placing the handcuffs on him backwards.

“I asked him please put the cuffs on correctly, you’re hurting me, and he refused, tightening them instead,” he said.

Then they took him to the holding cell where they handcuffed him to a wall, and even then, they still slammed the door locked, in case he somehow broke free.

Kerzic said they never accused him of trespassing until after they had him handcuffed and placed in the cell. He believes they only came up with this charge after they realized there was no law in the books that stated that photography was illegal inside a train station.

“At no time did they tell me to leave the platform,” he said. “All they wanted me to do was delete my photos.”

Kerzic was released 90 minutes later with a citation for trespassing.

He has sent out letters complaining of the incident to everybody from New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg to New York Senator Hillary Clinton to everybody in between and above, including Amtrak officials, New Jersey Transit officials and even President Bush himself, in case he feels the urge to do some work before he leaves office next month.

He has also contacted a New York City lawyer who specializes in First Amendment cases and the National Press Photographers Association has also been in contact with him.

And he has been documenting his case on his website, including photos of his injured wrist and the various train platforms as well as the letters he has sent out.

Now he plans to return to Penn Station and photograph the cops who arrested him as well as continue taking photos for the Amtrak contest.

“If I win that contest, I would travel all over the country taking photos,” he said.

And if he wins the lawsuit, he may end up traveling all over the world.

Popularity: 31% [?]

Tags: First Amendment

170 responses so far ↓

1 RealEstateFeast--South Florida real estate blog // Dec 27, 2008 at 7:51 AM

Uneffingbelievable on so many levels. As a former marketing guy, I cannot for the life of me understand how there could be such poor communication within the organization about the photography contest. At the very least one would expect posters in every station announcing the contest. As a citizen, I am alarmed beyond simple concern that I could be treated like a criminal simply for taking a picture. As I’ve mentioned before, in my current career as a realtor and a blogger I’m often out in public with a camera. This is absolutely chilling.
2 Tony Smith // Dec 27, 2008 at 8:28 AM

You can email the PR people here:
mediarelations@amtrak.com
mediarelationsnyc@amtrak.com
mediarelationschicago@amtrak.com
mediarelationsoakland@amtrak.com

I guess companies need to start giving out “permission slips” with their contests saying “Please don’t arrest me! Your corporate bosses said it was OK!”.
3 Craig Garver // Dec 27, 2008 at 10:51 AM

He will win. He clearly wasn’t trespassing because he rode the train in. He was a paying customer in a public building provided for that very purpose.

He will also win because the US Supreme Court decided this very issue several decades ago. Photography in and of itself has already been ruled constitutional.

This is the very reason I stopped taking pictures as a railfan. When the FBI arrested a man in Ft. Worth on terrorist charges right after 9/11 for simply enjoying watching a freaking train go by, it just wasn’t worth it. Screw Amtrak, their PR calendar, and the rest of them for this after sucking my wallet dry as a taxpayer since 1971 when the corporation was created. This is insane!

I’ve met some really nice railroad cops on the Southern Pacific back in the 1970′s and 80′s – but there are some real nuts out there, as evidenced here. Be careful. They don’t know the law, are privately paid full law enforcement with real police powers. This should be unconstitutional to have that kind of power of arrest with a private company, but it’s not.
4 Steve // Dec 27, 2008 at 11:07 AM

Good thing our Banks, Healthcare, Insurance companies, and Auto industry aren’t run by the same folks who operate Amtrack. Think about it.
5 John Rogers // Dec 27, 2008 at 11:07 AM

Stupid cops, these are the kind of punk cops I just love to hear about getting clipped in the line of duty!

Jess
http://www.online-privacy.se.tc
6 Marie B. // Dec 27, 2008 at 11:12 AM

This is unbelievable. I am hearing more and more about people being treated like criminals for acting like citizens that live in a free country. I think that a lot of the problem lies with giving morons authority when they are unable to make good judgement calls. They seem to lose it when they realize that they have power. It happens everyday in our airports when mothers are asked to drink their babies breastmilk to prove it’s not an explosive and our elderly are searched down to their toes. Meanwhile, real criminals are arrested and released to continue on with their crimes. What has happened to us?
7 Leon // Dec 27, 2008 at 11:35 AM

Steve, I hope you’re being ironic … ? Our non-government Banks, Healthcare, Insurance companies, and Auto industry are all a shambles. Whether an institution is government-run or not has little bearing on power-mad police in any milieu.

Most police in the US are great men and women, but a significant minority are complete a**holes.
8 TDC // Dec 27, 2008 at 11:51 AM

Man. That’s just completely ridiculous. I’ve linked to you from my blog — I hope you get some traffic out of it. Good reporting!
9 DG // Dec 27, 2008 at 12:05 PM

He’s a conservative Republican? Then he totally deserves this treatment as he actively helped to put it into place. Conservatives think you can put laws into place, like wiretapping and homeland security, and that it’s just to get the bad guys. They don’t realize stepping on civil rights means that ultimately THEIR civil rights are trampled.
10 Duane Kerzic // Dec 27, 2008 at 12:09 PM

I called Clifford Cole (212.630.7770) the media relations guy in NYC on Dec 22. I asked him about taking photos on the platforms. He said it’s not allowed by the general public. I asked where it was written that it wasn’t allowed by the general public, he could not say. He said if I had a Working Press Credential an Amtrak employee would escort me. Basically told me I had to take his word. I pointed out that the general public takes photos on the platform in Penn Station NY all the time and Amtraks policy about having a ticket, which I’m not sure is legal either. He said it’s not allowed for the general public to take photos on the platforms. I asked again where is it written. He said we are just going to go around in circles and hung up on me.

I was also told to call John Kalapos at 215.349.1238 but he never called me back.

I left a message for Michael Gallagher (212.630.7770) the Station Manager of Penn Station which he failed to return.

I had tickets, lots of them. The cops did ask to see my ticket, which had been collected on the train I was riding when I came in, so I showed them my stack of tickets, from a ten trip purchase.

I believe that a big part of the reason for attempt to ban photos is that Amtrak doesn’t want photos documenting the sorry condition they keep our rail roads in. If there was an accident and they are trying to blame it on an employee and you have a photo of a signal in disrepair that would make Amtrak Management look bad. You also might send that photo off to someone that has oversight of the company and someone could get in trouble. So even though there is not a law, harass the public and do all you can to prevent them from exercising their first amendment rights.

Cops and officials don’t like photos because photos don’t lie. A friend of mine that’s an attorney has a saying, “how do you know when a cop is lying? when his lips are moving.” It’s sad that while there are many really good officers thre are also so many that aren’t good.

One other thing. We really don’t want cops being allowed to make judgement calls in the street. We never want the enforcers judging. The founding fathers seperated the powers for a reason. The cops where enforcing a non-existant law, a law I guess they think should be there, which means they are acting as judgement. If they had enfoced the laws that exist I would have been left alone or at most told the platform is now closed to the public you have to leave.
11 John Hunter // Dec 27, 2008 at 1:58 PM

Thanks, we need people who care about liberty to take stands and publicize the actions of the state to eliminate liberty. It is unfortunate we have allowed the situation to deteriorate so far, but now we need people to assure we do not lose our freedom because those in authority decide they are not bound by laws.
12 Greg in Illinois // Dec 27, 2008 at 2:24 PM

Here’s a good piece on the fight over this in Illinois

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,1221026

You should look up Mr. Zullig
13 Pigs // Dec 27, 2008 at 2:38 PM

“The cops where enforcing a non-existant law, a law I guess they think should be there, which means they are acting as judgement. If they had enfoced the laws that exist I would have been left alone or at most told the platform is now closed to the public you have to leave.”

It’s worse than that. They’re legislating, judging, and enforcing. Republicans cry about judges legislating from the bench but legislating from behind a badge is more frequent and more harmful. At least judges are required to have some education. Cops need a GED and don’t get hired if their IQ is anywhere above room temperature because they might cause trouble for the brotherhood. Their jobs are even more secure than those of judges due to their corrupt unions and code of silence.
14 Bud // Dec 27, 2008 at 5:25 PM

I have just Stumbled in here, and I am very sickened by the treatment of this man, but also I am sickened by the comments of those who say he is a Conservative Republican and he deserves this treatment.
I am a Conservative Republican, and quite frankly never cared for any abuse of authority no matter who it is directed to, and for the record it wasn’t more than likely other conservative Republicans that where abusing their authority the area that this man was taking pictures is known for being hard blue “Democrat” we have the same issue in the Pacific Northwest everyone is hard blue and also very abusive of their authority, California is another great example and one of the worst states to get pulled over in.
Lets not lose our minds in the name of partisan ism you have your beliefs and I have mine just because I believe in smaller Government, less taxes and the right to worship and believe the way I want to and believe that babies are precious and should be protected in the mothers womb doesn’t mean I deserve to have a rogue cop abuse me.
I am a veteran also I would stand for you, could you at least be civil?
15 Scott // Dec 27, 2008 at 6:53 PM

Yes, you know it is entirely possible that the arresting Amtrak cops were democrats, you never know. It’s not just liberals who deserve the rights granted by the constitution, it’s everybody. But man, why do so many cops they think they have absolute power? I don’t understand it.
16 PDBreske // Dec 27, 2008 at 7:10 PM

Mr. Kerzic,

You said in your reply here:

“One other thing. We really don’t want cops being allowed to make judgement calls in the street. We never want the enforcers judging.”

Really? Is this what we really want? If no law enforcement officer is ever allowed to make a judgement call, then we can look forward to a couple being pulled over and issued a citation for speeding to the hospital when the wife is in labor. “Sorry, I can’t let you go. Speeding is against the law.”

Or how about the day someone’s kid is caught on the front step drinking a beer while the parent’s are inside having dinner? Hmm, looks like Mom and Dad are going to jail for contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

What these Amtrak officers did wasn’t a bad judgement call, it was ignorance of the law. There is a huge difference.
17 Enhager // Dec 27, 2008 at 7:51 PM

We really need the new york times to follow up on this story. who should we write?
18 Bud // Dec 27, 2008 at 8:09 PM

As much as I am for smaller Government there needs to be a civil power that balances out the powers to be, such as when you get a ticket quite often it is already decided that you are guilty because the policemen says so and the Judge has already granted credit to the officer.
This is the kind of network left unchecked that always grows into an abusive Government, and this my friends is why our fore Fathers made sure we would have the right to Arms not just for self protection but protection from a Government that has gotten out of hand, we have seen many cases of police brutality in the last couple years from Youtube videos showing a kid being harassed by the local policeman being abusive and threatening and even caught lying by a hidden camera to a cop in Illinois who has obviously “OJ’d” his wife and more than likely the last couple wives. but lets not forget the elephant in the room, some of these guys have seen too many a thug or “gangsta” being protected by the system too…
so where does it end? many a town or city has so many gated neighborhoods in the name of security, why? because we have let way too many ner dowells out when they should have been put away for life or at least deported.
19 Carlos Miller // Dec 27, 2008 at 8:19 PM

DG,

I’m a liberal democrat but from my experience writing this blog since April 2007, there are many conservative republicans who do not support these types of First Amendment abuses, no matter who they are against.

I think the ones you are talking about are the Neocons, whom I described in this post.

http://carlosmiller.com/2008/06/19/neocon-repugs-salute-state-while-trampling-constitution/
20 Carlos Miller // Dec 27, 2008 at 8:30 PM

Enhager,

The New York Times building is less than a mile from Penn Station.

I’m in Miami.

If they haven’t gotten wind of this story yet, then I don’t know what else needs to be done.
21 genewitch // Dec 28, 2008 at 6:34 AM

PDBreske:
You said you want a cop to let someone speeding go; if the husband is driving the wife who is in labor to the hospital?

Our society in america has ambulances. That have sirens and lights and a myriad of medical equipment. 99.99999% of the time, waiting for an ambulance is the right thing to do.

So to answer your question, NO I DO NOT WANT COPS MAKING JUDGMENT CALLS.

Carlos, i’m starting to not be surprised when i hear these stories. the common thread appears to be “you’re not allowed/delete those photos” and then a trumped up charge being slapped on the person for having the audacity to exercise their first amendment rights.

As a matter of fact, can we just make that the motto, somewhere?

“You had the audacity to exercise your first amendment rights and legally refuse our abuse of power! BAM! TRESPASS/RESISTING ARREST!”

It has a ring, yes?
22 genewitch // Dec 28, 2008 at 6:41 AM

and what’s with the smiley face at the bottom of your page?
23 Avijit Roy // Dec 28, 2008 at 9:57 AM

I am interested to participated to your photo contest
Kindely informed me
Thanking you
Avijit
24 JEL // Dec 28, 2008 at 10:31 AM

I work for a local transit agency. During a recent “Terrorist Awareness” training they instructed us to be vigilant of people taking pictures of our buses and trains. I inquired about policy on photography. Our “head of security” stated: Right now the law does not allow us to prohibit photography in public places. But these “nutjobs” and whackos” will get what’s coming to them one day! In the mean time, harass them until they leave the property.

Good luck, Mr. Kerzic.
25 Carlos Miller // Dec 28, 2008 at 12:25 PM

Genewitch,

A smiley on the bottom of my page? I don’t see it.

Or maybe you’re talking about the Reddit submission icon.

JEL,

It’s time to harass them back by photographing these security guards and cops and posting their photos on the internet.
26 genewitch // Dec 28, 2008 at 12:48 PM

Carlos – it’s under the © tag. Very bottom, center. It’s so tiny i’ve never seen it.

it’s but rotated 90 degrees clockwise.
it would fit inside ^ that zero!

It’s irrelevant, but i was wondering if it was new or not.
27 genewitch // Dec 28, 2008 at 12:48 PM

colon Close Parenthesis.

Not the little graphic.
28 Carlos Miller // Dec 28, 2008 at 12:54 PM

It’s not on my screen. Maybe it’s your browser. What are you using?
29 spokker // Dec 28, 2008 at 2:51 PM

“I am interested to participated to your photo contest
Kindely informed me
Thanking you
Avijit”

Uh, I would hold off on that idea, Avijit.

If Kerzic got arrested for taking photos at Penn Station, I think this dude is going to get water boarded for it…
30 Carlos Miller // Dec 28, 2008 at 6:20 PM

That’s the weirdest thing. I use Firefox and I don’t have that smiley on my screen.

Is it just on this site?
31 Carlos Miller // Dec 28, 2008 at 6:27 PM

When I logged out of my WordPress account, and pulled up this page, I could see the little smiley, but when I log back on, the smiley disappears.

Maybe it has something to do with the new comment subscription function.
32 Spokker // Dec 28, 2008 at 10:32 PM

The sentiment I see being displayed at railroad forums is that the victim of wrongful arrest “should have known better”. Here are some of the posts from a prominent railroad forum.

They basically believe he’s a trouble maker because he’s been arrested before. Sorry, but no matter how many times the guy is arrested for photography in a public place, each arrest is wrong.

Thanks for standing up for your rights, Kerzic. You are one crazy bastard, and I admire you for it!
33 Duane Kerzic // Dec 28, 2008 at 11:18 PM

JEL said:
“Our “head of security” stated: Right now the law does not allow us to prohibit photography in public places. But these “nutjobs” and whackos” will get what’s coming to them one day! In the mean time, harass them until they leave the property.”

Hopefully soon the “nut job”. “whacko” head of security at your transit agency will get what’s coming to him like a boot out the door and a good tip not to let the door hit him in the A$$ on the way out. Photography is protected by the Constitution, that is not changing any time soon. If you want to send me an email I might have to travel to your town and give your head of security a helping hand on finding a new job.

I for one am not going to put up with it any longer. I’m sure there are many others that will not put up with it either. If people want to take photos for terroristic planning purposes they aren’t going to be using equipment that can be surveilled by the authorities with ease. Ban’s on photography will never stop that photo taking. These bans only result in honest people getting harassed and abused. They also result in the limiting of civil liberties of all of us. I volunteered to be an officer in the US Navy to protect those liberties from enemies foreign and domestic. I’m not going to allow those liberties to be taken from me by our government without a political fight. John McCann got it right, “Stand up and fight”.

This terrorist crap is slowly invading our liberties in all kinds of places. Do you really feel any safer because you take off your shoes before you get on an airplane? Do you feel any safer as they search 90 year old citizens in wheel chairs before they get on airplanes. It’s horrendous what they subject those people to, watch some time. If you have an artificial knee, let me see the scar everytime. I have a friend that flies all the time for his job, he has to drop his trousers every time he gets on an airplane so they can see his scar.

Try reentering the country on a motorcycle from Canada or Mexico. I travel extensively on adventure motorcycles. I come back from Canada or Mexico they assume I’m some kind of drug trafficker or something at the border. Where are you going, where are you coming from, what did you do when you were in where ever. I was there for 90 days do you want a day by day recap? Are you bringing any soil back from where ever? Ahh, the motorcycle and my clothing is covered in soil, how do i answer that question? I always want to say, “None of your god damned business what I did or where I was, I didn’t break any laws of either country while I was away.” They go through all my stuff. Of course they never find anything, duh. But they mess up how it’s packed and delay me for a long time. They also mess with some expensive camera stuff I don’t want them to break. When they see the camera equipment they assume I’m a child pornographer or something. They look through my photos. They treat me with disrespect and expect me to put up with it and not mind as they keep us safe. It’s not a right to travel across international borders they tell me. Don’t like it don’t leave the country. I mostly wonder what these people dream about at night. Cause I sleep without any problems.

They also tell you no photos at the border all the time. Which is also crap, I’ve had border agents from other countries actually offer to take my photo standing on the borders with one foot in each country.

No I’m sure I’ll get added to the ‘no fly’ list or some other ‘terrorist watch’ list so they can really mess with me all the time. Perhaps the FBI will be knocking on my door tomorrow, while they should be investigating Officer Rusbarsky’s violation of my civil rights, they will be investigating the photos I legally took in Penn Station NY. Maybe I’m being paranoid, maybe I’m not. Time will tell.

One last thing. I’ve worn the target before. I’ll wear it again. There is some satisfaction that comes after you fight a good fight and win.
34 KMG // Dec 29, 2008 at 2:09 AM

Right on Duane. Good for you standing up for your constitutional rights. And for everyone else here arguing whether Republicans or Democrats are the problem. This isn’t a partisan issue. This is an issue with police abusing their positions of authority and violating our civil rights.

This is about police not doing their jobs correctly and wasting our tax money on bogus arrests of innocent people when they could be out catching real criminals. This is about our rights to photograph, stand, speak up and express ourselves freely in a public place. This is about the freedom and justice we’re suppose to promote in our supposedly ‘free’ nation.

Cops need to follow the laws like everyone else and need to enforce them rather than aiding big businesses like Amtrak in harassing and mistreating the public and their rights. This is about bringing an end to neo-con and corporatist ideals and moving back to protecting our constitution, our democratic republic, and our freedoms as US citizens.

Way to go Duane. I may be a Democrat but I think we share a lot of similarities when it comes to standing up for what our country and its constitution are supposed to represent.
35 roylee // Dec 29, 2008 at 2:07 PM

it too bad when deputy’s abuse the authority
of their badge and become mently abussive
over nice train photographers.this need to be taken to the highiest court of the land.what hard this the nice person do for a citation as trespasing in a public place.this is mentle damage
and the police should be dismissed or go to a public relactions obediance course.to learn how be peace officer’s. our freedom of take photography for a hobbie is in trouble
36 roylee // Dec 29, 2008 at 2:12 PM

spelling correction paragraph four
whay sould this nice person be given a citation
37 roylee // Dec 29, 2008 at 2:13 PM

my type board is messing up sorry of misspelled word
38 Scott Bourne // Dec 29, 2008 at 4:35 PM

As usual, the cops in New York are acting like thugs and a photographer is on the receiving end. These sorts of situations call for strong action. And it looks like the photographer is taking that action. But the rest of us can help. We should draw attention to the fact that in New York, the only difference between the cops and the criminals is that the criminals have been caught. Also, Amtrak doesn’t deserve public money or our business if this is how they plan to do business. Accordingly, I am contacting all of my federal representatives to implore them to terminate Amtrak funding. There’s no use in us giving tax money to a bunch of common hoodlums. I also urge all photographers who have ties to attorneys to start getting the lawyers involved. The government doesn’t respect our rights, but they do worry about the money that they have to pay out when they get caught acting like thugs.
39 Chuck W. // Jan 1, 2009 at 12:18 AM

This issue keeps popping up ever since 9-11, and yet no-one seems to set down some basic, standard rules for where and when you can photograph a train. It various from state to state, railroad to railroad.
It’s time not only for Amtrak, but for the FRA or some higher authority to set up the guidelines so everyone knows.
Maybe get some Senator, like Wisconsin’s Herb Kohl (who has been there several years and done nothing of note) to get on the stick, put his name on a Bill and get it done.
40 David // Jan 1, 2009 at 2:28 PM

If everyone is absolutely certain that the law is on the side of Mr. Kerzic (consult an attorney first), I think the best thing to do is stage a perfectly legal “protest”:

Invite many (a hundred? hundreds??) photographers to the train station in question and simultaneously begin taking photographs. If security guards begin harassing individuals, there will be many more there to document it with photos and videos. If the guards do nothing, maybe someone can attempt to interview them on video (start a nonchalant, touristy-style interview to disarm them) and inquire about photography rules/laws.

It may also be worthwhile to have every photographer carry a copy of the applicable laws/rules detailing the legality of their activity.

One person against a group of guards is an invitation for abuse. A larger group against a group of guards is a little more intimidating and *may* make the guards think a little more about their actions.
41 Mike in NoVA // Jan 1, 2009 at 7:32 PM

I have a question about the details about the dog and Mr. kerzic’s bag being sniff searched. This detail was not in his complaint letters or on his website. Did this detail come from Mr Kerzic? Only reason I am asking is that I reported this on the photography forum I frequent and someone mentioned the discrepency.
42 Carlos Miller // Jan 1, 2009 at 8:20 PM

Mike in NoVA,

I interviewed Kerzic by phone and he told me that information.
43 Mike in NoVA // Jan 1, 2009 at 8:42 PM

Thanks Carlos…
44 Duane Kerzic // Jan 1, 2009 at 10:22 PM

Mike in NoVA, which photography forum. They can ask me if they like, I’ll join and answer questions. Carlos with an eye for a story thought the dog was important. I didn’t care that much about the dog, as best I know we have to tolerate being checked for bombs and the like in the station.

Also Amtrak or more correctly the National Railroad Passenger Corp. is a publicly owned private corporation. So I was actually on private property. This is where it gets tricky however. The owners of private property can limit certain freedoms on their property. Try to run a pro life or choice protest in Macy’s for instance. You’ll be asked to leave and if you don’t you’re trespassing. However some Amtrak property is considered to be a public forum, just like the street or a park, and First Amendment Activities are allowed on Amtrak property as long as you follow some simple rules, they even have a web page about it. Same thing with taking photos inside the store, they can ask you to leave and you have to, anything that can be seen from the street is fair game however. The same is true of rail lines. If you are standing on private (with permission) or public property adjacent to the rail line and can see the rail line you can take a photo of it. I’m not advocating standing on the RR right of way, which is private property, where you can be hit by a train.

I got to the platfrom aboard a NJ Transit Train so I had permission to be there. NJ Transit allows photography on all publicly accessible portions of it’s property. How long that permission to be on the platform lasts I don’t know, I can’t find anything that says and there aren’t any signs. So while there are some ‘No Trespassing’ signs around, but not where I was, how do you know when they apply to you. The issue wasn’t about trespassing untill I refused to delete my photographs and in the end my photos were not deleted. I was harassed, embaressed, not allowed to use the bathroom and a bunch of other stuff. This is how bullies act.

Amtrak is required to have a regulation regarding photography on it’s property. It can’t be arbitrary as in “no photography allowed any place”. NJ Transit and the MTA tried to put such a regulation in place. They were threatened with law suits from various groups questioning the Constitutionality of such regulations and decided that bans on photography were not in the public interest and did not enact them. However some of the employees of these agencies still harass people for taking photos. This harassment needs to be reported to the ACLU branches and the NPPA.

Amtrak is required by executive order and 49 CFR 701 to have it’s rules, manuals, regulations and other things it uses in dealing with the public published in the public domain. There is no rule about photography on it’s property I have been able to find to date. I have made a FOIA request to Amtrak to provide all such rules. It’s also my belief that what portions of the station are open and not open to the public and the other things I have asked for must also be in the public domain, yet I have not been able to find them. My letters have not been answered to date.

Hope this helps.
45 Carlos Miller // Jan 1, 2009 at 10:26 PM

Here you go, Duane.

http://pentaxforums.com/forums/general-talk/45488-another-innocent-photographer-arrested-nyc.html
46 Mike in NoVA // Jan 2, 2009 at 12:51 PM

Carlos & Duane,

Glad y’all found the forum and thanks for the comments you’ve both contributed there. I hope my initial summary and subsequent clarifications have been accurate and that I have not mis-stated any of the basic facts in question. If there is anything I can do to support any of the actions or claims please let me know.

We seriously need to begin standing up to these abuses and misuses of authority against photographers.

Mike
47 Mike in NoVA // Jan 2, 2009 at 12:53 PM

p.s. I have also posted a heads up about this incident at the DC Photo Rights Flickr page. We’ve had our own run ins with Amtrak thoug most of our issues were with an over-zealous mall operator…

http://www.flickr.com/groups/dcphotorights/discuss/72157611975551065/
48 Carlos Miller // Jan 2, 2009 at 1:04 PM

Mike,

You didn’t misstate anything. But some people are always going to look for holes in an argument.
49 Tim // Jan 2, 2009 at 7:35 PM

Carlos-
I think the smiley you and genewitch are discussing is a piece of the site statistics tracker… I see it too.

Tim
50 Steve // Jan 2, 2009 at 8:01 PM

As a retired NYPD officer and professional photographer I am so disgusted as to what they are hiring now and their lack of knowledge of the rules, regulations and the laws. I myself have been stopped for photographing the NY subways and when I identify myself I am told that I should know better. Know better? What , that I am exercising my 1st Ammed. right and furthermore the NYC rules and regulations do not prohibit photography. I carry a copy of if with me in my camera bag all the time now.
51 Carlos Miller // Jan 2, 2009 at 9:08 PM

Tim,

I believe you’re right because when I log out of my WordPress account, I can see the smiley, but not when I’m logged in.

And I have it set up where it doesn’t record my visits in the statistics counter.

Steve,

Is it just a lack of training nowadays in the police departments?

It seems like in every industry, standards and training have been slashed for budget reasons.

So it wouldn’t surprise me if police departments are going through the same deal.
52 Carlos Miller // Jan 2, 2009 at 10:00 PM

There is an interesting debate going on in the Pentax forums over this incident.

http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-talk/45488-another-innocent-photographer-arrested-nyc-4.html

And I just want to post one of the comments made from a guy named Bruce who goes by the username Baltochef920 because it is perfectly stated:

Exactly what does a No Trespassing sign signify??..

Traditionally in the United States it has meant that a particular piece of property was off limits to any person that did not have the landowners, or in certain cases, the owner of the building’s permission to be in, or on the property..That permission could be verbal, or written..In and on public spaces, even privately owned ones, that permission is implicit..It is implicit because the private business, or government, wants the public to congregate in that place for the express purpose of commercial gain..

Certain buildings are owned by one person, while the ground that the building is located on is owned by another person altogether..In cases like this the owner of the building is generally the one that is determining what rules will apply to the building itself..Things like municipal stadiums that were only in public use a small part of the year would be posted on the walls and fences..These situations were easy to figure out, even for a child..

I am 54 years old..When I was a child it was exceptionally rare to see a No Trespassing sign anyplace but on a locked, untenanted building, or a fenced in piece of property..You never saw No Trespassing signs in public places like Penn Station, except for those areas that were easily recognized as being off limits, such as the tracks..Doors leading to places where a building owner wanted to restrict access were posted Keep Out, Restricted Access, Authorized Personnel Only, Employee’s Only, or No Trespassing Past This Point..As I think back to my youth I cannot remember any No Trespassing sign being posted where it was not extremely easy to understand what part of a property was being declared off limits by its owner..

After skateboarding started to become very popular was when one started to see these No Trespassing signs being posted in places where the public congregated daily for some legitimate purpose..No Loitering signs, No Vagrancy signs, No Bicycles signs, and No Skateboarding signs started popping up all over the place, usually accompanied by a statement on the sign designating certain hours when these restrictions were to be obeyed..The most common places to see these signs were in, and around, grocery stores and other businesses with wide expanses of concrete sidewalks that did not want their clientele to be bothered..

Places like Penn Station that are in operation 24/7/365 are usually installing these No Trespassing signs in order to try and deal with the homeless, with vagrants, with panhandlers, and with anyone else that they deem undesirable..Building owners, security guards, cops, government agencies all love the No Trespassing sign because it is so damned non-specific..It allows them to deal with a multitude of different situations without having to be specific when they are trying to force someone off of their property..Most adults understand what the concept of a No Trespassing sign is..The trouble is that it is too easily misinterpreted by anyone in authority that chooses to abuse the authority implied in a No Trespassing sign..

As regards to Mr. Kerzic it is very obvious to anyone that wishes to look clearly at the situation that he was well within his rights to be in Penn Station, and to take photographs while he was there..He had tickets in his possession indicating that he was la legitimate paying passenger..The were no signs posted stating No Photography..Even if he had walked into Penn Station off of the streets of New York City carrying a dSLR to meet someone that was arriving on a train, he still had a legitimate, legal right to be there, and to photograph while he was waiting..

Next, I will discuss the real problem with Stewart’s, and everyone else’s, assumptions that Mr. Kerzic was in the wrong..What is the single overriding purpose for Penn Station’s existence??..It exists as a covered terminal to allow the arrival and departure of human beings who are riding passenger trains, and who are traveling to and from New York City..Nothing more, and nothing less..Any other activity conducted there is ancillary to passenger travel..It has been accepted for centuries that anyplace that humans congregate in order to facilitate the movement of people or freight to and from one place to another; that other humans would be welcome to wait there for their arrival, or to see them off at their departure..A precedent has been set long ago allowing someone off the street to wait around for considerable periods of time in a rail passenger terminal seemingly doing nothing..As a result, even if Mr Kerzic had not had the tickets in his pockets, he still would have had a legitimate right to be in the station..In my opinion he would have the right to hang around for up to an hour, even taking photographs, as long as he was not interfering with the business of rail travel..

The entire issue of the photo contest pretty much negates any objections that the police might have for anyone wanting to hang around taking photographs..Since the contest has been in existence for multiple years running, it is very difficult for any AmTrak police officer to claim that they are unaware of the contest..Since Penn Station is leased by AmTrak, since their trains do enter the station, since Penn Station is a public space, albeit privately owned, it is very hard to see how AmTrak can deny anyone the right to enter the station to take photographs..

Penn Station is a public place..As a result of being a public place it is very hard to prevent someone from entering the station..How long does a person have to be in Penn Station without departing, or arriving, on a train before they are considered to be trespassing??..As long as there is no accepted policy to try and determine exactly how to define trespassing within Penn Station, these kinds of transgressions will continue to happen..That is exactly the way that management wants things to continue..They presently have an incredible amount of leeway to harass people that are legitimately in Penn Station..By allowing things to remain so vague they are giving the various police forces, especially the AmTrak police, a very wide mandate to stop and harass anyone using a camera in Penn Station..

The only way for these erosions of our First Amendment rights to cease is for every photographer to stand up and fight for them..We have to be willing to get arrested and go to court if things are going to change..If you do not want to do this I suggest that you sell off all of your camera equipment and find another hobby..

What we all must not forget is that the entire incident between Mr. Kerzic and the AmTrak police started with an illegal act..The illegal act was not Mr. Kerzic trespassing, as he had valid tickets in his possession..The illegal act was the two AmTrak police officers demanding that a photographer delete images from the memory card in his camera..This is something that a police officer is not legally empowered to do.. If these officers truly thought that Mr. Kerzic had committed a crime through photography, he should have been arrested..His camera containing the memory card should have been booked into evidence..The images on that memory card should have been preserved for a trial..That he was not arrested says several things..First, that they were derelict in their duty..Second, that he never committed a crime in the first place, and that they were merely f**king with him..

Photography, with a very few exceptions (none of which apply here) is a legal activity protected by the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States..As has already been stated, only a judge ruling in the sentencing phase of a trial has the legal right to order images deleted from a memory card, or for undeveloped film, negatives, slides, or prints to be destroyed..Until the time that a judge does so order such destruction, the images on the memory card, or on any undeveloped film, are the intellectual property of the photographer..Until a judge says otherwise, only the photographer has the right to decide what to do with their property..

Seven plus years after 9-11 I refuse to believe that the management of AmTrak is unaware of the First Amendment, especially as pertains to the right to photograph in public..All government agencies like the current state of affairs as it has allowed them to get away with things that are illegal that they would have had a very hard time getting away with before 9-11..As someone else already pointed out, governments, police forces, and businesses hate photography..Because a photograph, still or video, is a permanent record of the past..As long as that photographic record validates the position of the authority in question, things are just rosy..The nanosecond that the photographic record shows off the authority in question in a bad light, then their attitude flip-flops 180 degrees..

The Patriot Act does not specifically target photography..If it had done so the media would have raised such a fuss that it never would have passed..The modern media’s entire justification for being is predicated on still and video images..Without them they would virtually cease to exist..As photographers we have allowed various government agencies to suborn our right to photograph in public since 9-11.. It is high time that all photographers realized that this is not a game..That our government is bent on removing the right to photograph in public from anyone but those that they deem suitable..And, that means anyone that might show them up in a bad light..Which means all of us..

Bruce
53 Spokker // Jan 2, 2009 at 10:47 PM

The only quasi-public place I have ever felt 100% comfortable taking photos was at Disneyland. Here is a place that I’ve shot up and down. I would set up my mini-tripod on trash cans for long exposure shots at night and simply lounge around shooting whatever I wanted, an activity that probably would have gotten me the death penalty in New York or DC.
54 Carlos Miller // Jan 3, 2009 at 4:33 PM

Duane,

Here is another thread discussing your arrest.

http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=746498

Spokker,

And be assured that in Disneyland they are watching every single move you do as you do it, so it’s not that they are not aware of your actions.
55 Mike in NoVA // Jan 3, 2009 at 6:11 PM

I forgot to tell y’all. The arrest is also being discussed on Model Mayhem at:

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=391469

Non-members can read the thread but cannot post. Membership is moderated with a portfolio requirement.
56 Spokker // Jan 3, 2009 at 9:10 PM

Carlos, I’m sure they are, but I’ve never heard of anyone being harassed there for taking photos or “lingering” for too long. They even let you take photos 1 hour after it closes, though they tend to gently scoot you out of the back area of the park sooner though. Security is all around pretty friendly there.
57 Debbie // Jan 3, 2009 at 11:48 PM

Also discussed in http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=624159
58 Contest // Jan 4, 2009 at 12:53 PM

Is the Amtrak photo contest going on now? The link takes you to a site that says the contest ended in July.
59 Mike Jones // Jan 4, 2009 at 2:54 PM

“said the 50-year-old navy veteran who describes himself as a “conservative republican”.”

Conservative Republicans are largely responsible for creating the police state mentality and security hysteria we all have to live with now. Let Duane Kerzic taste some of his own medicine. Consider it poetic justice.
60 Mike Jones // Jan 4, 2009 at 2:57 PM

“said the 50-year-old navy veteran who describes himself as a “conservative republican”.”

Conservative Republicans are largely responsible for creating the police state mentality and security hysteria we all have to live with now. Let Duane Kerzic taste some of his own medicine, and that people like him realize that “liberal” is not a dirty word. Consider it poetic justice.
61 CaptainBeefheart // Jan 4, 2009 at 6:20 PM

Anyone notice that the contest ended on 7/11/2008?

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/am2Copy/Hot_Deals_Page&c=am2Copy&cid=1093554057903&ssid=224

The “Picture Our Train” 2009 wall calendar photo contest has ended. Thank you for your interest.

Enter the Amtrak Picture Our Train 2009 Wall Calendar Photo Contest and your photograph could adorn the walls of train lovers everywhere.

Enter your photo of an Amtrak train (sporting the current logo) to have your image featured on the Amtrak 2009 wall calendar.

The First Prize Winner will receive a $1,000 Amtrak travel voucher and a photo credit on the calendar. The Second through Fifth Prize Winners will also receive Amtrak travel vouchers.

Contest ends July 11, 2008.
62 Carlos Miller // Jan 4, 2009 at 6:28 PM

The contest has been held every year for the last five years.

They have not announced the contest for 2009 yet because they usually announce it between Feb. and May.

All Kerzic was trying to do was get a head start on the contest.
63 Duane Kerzic // Jan 4, 2009 at 7:20 PM

How can you help. Write to your President, members of his cabinet, Senators, Congressmen, Governors, Mayors, and anyone that you voted for about this or how you have been personally effected because of incidents like this. That’s what I did, I sent letters to Joseph Boardman the CEO of Amtrak and copied everyone I could think of that could have any type of interest as an elected official. It doesn’t take long to write a letter, they actually make a huge difference. Things I’ve written about in the past have been changed for the better. Most politicians have email addresses posted online or a webform to send message on their websites. Use them. Send copies to the people I’ve listed below. Letters are more efffective then 100 people showing up in Pennsylvania Station with cameras. I will try to write some sample letters and post them to make it eaiser. You can also print out my letters to Mr. Boardman and just put a short note saying I want to be sure you are aware of this and send it off. You can email links to my page here to your representitives. You can email links to my page to Amtrak Media Relations National and NY. Very easy to do. Thanks for your help.
64 Mr. Reality // Jan 4, 2009 at 7:22 PM

There’s really just one law when it comes to cops- the cop is always right. Even when the video proves that s/he’s wrong. Conservative Republican caught in the web, eh? Now you know how the rest of us feel.
65 TBT // Jan 4, 2009 at 7:22 PM

The same folks that built a wall around Gaza are the ones behind the destruction of the Constitution. Its time to put down the camera and pick up the musket.
66 Spokker // Jan 4, 2009 at 7:57 PM

The contest is over, therefore the police were correct in detaining the guy.

You may only take photographs during contest periods. I thought everyone knew this.
67 Carlos Miller // Jan 4, 2009 at 8:06 PM

So he was arrested for not following the rules of the contest?

Pretty harsh.
68 Spokker // Jan 4, 2009 at 8:36 PM

Well, his photos would not have come out well in Penn Station anyway. I, the master of railroad photography, knows that he would have never won the contest anyway, therefore he’s a jerk and I don’t care what happens to him.

This is what some people in the railfan community actually think.
69 chicopanther // Jan 4, 2009 at 10:03 PM

Those so-called “cops” should be demoted to having to pump out the toilets on Amtrak trains. That’s all they’re fit for, since they have the same material for “brains” as what they’d be pumping out of those tanks.

chicopanther
70 Richard Walker // Jan 4, 2009 at 10:31 PM

Wow, the irony. Great to see Scott Bourne and retired NYPD officer “Steve” in the comments. Updating my post about last August’s blintfest in SF. Thomas Hawk is missing (in the comments
71 noyb // Jan 4, 2009 at 10:31 PM

This conservative republican put these jerks in charge to begin with so I have no sympathy for him.
72 Richard Walker // Jan 4, 2009 at 10:34 PM

This is a bigger story and should transcend partisan politics IMO
73 NJ Photographer Paul Guba // Jan 5, 2009 at 2:25 PM

I had a similar thing happen to me on two occasions. The Cops believe they have a right to arrest you based on the patriot act. This is incorrect and you have every right to photograph in Penn Station. I was threatened by NJ Transit Police in Newark Penn Station. I was scouting the job for a potential client that helped finance the reconstruction of the station. Almost got arrested myself. The interesting part of the story is the company that financed the deal for Penn Station Newark to renovate was latter closed and all their documents seized when it was found the were supporting Arab terrorist. They were secretly sending them money from dealing here in the States. So in fact Penn Station Newark may have aided in sending money to support terrorist.
74 inerlogic // Jan 5, 2009 at 3:23 PM

if those “cops” knew anything about photography, they’d have arrested, and beaten him, for using a lensbaby….
75 David Too // Jan 5, 2009 at 3:27 PM

Hey David,
This is in response to post 40.
I believe that you should coordinate with the people that do the No Pants thing every year.
http://improveverywhere.com/2007/12/29/no-pants-2k8-details-for-nyc/

Duane, Post 63,
I disagree the media attention that even a couple of hundred letters to Senators etc… will get is nothing compared to the media attention that would be raised by a 100 man photography team.
76 Carlos Miller // Jan 5, 2009 at 3:32 PM

David Too,

Hell yeah! That would generate its own media even if the media refuses to cover it.
77 Ron S // Jan 5, 2009 at 7:01 PM

Here’s a question to throw out to everyone…

Does there seem to be a recurring problem of photographers being detained for photography in train/transit stations? It seems I hear of this every so often, yet I can’t think of any example of photographers detained for photography in airports, which one would assume would be much more sensitive given 9/11.

I travel in the US a lot more by plane than train, and when the opportunity arises, such as time between flights, or interesting architecture and light, I’ll do some photography. Granted, this has always been after clearing security, so maybe the assumption is anyone in the sterile zone is safe. But, I have yet to be challenged, let alone even asked what I was doing by security/police personnel. It would seem I’d have a much better chance attracting the attention of police in a train station.

BTW, I looked at the Amtrak website. In the media section they do request that professional photographers/media contact them first, but nowhere could I find it stated outright that photography is otherwise not permitted.

There is some info here, but not sure how accurate it is: http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/photopermits.html
78 david in norcal // Jan 5, 2009 at 8:17 PM

Submit entries for the contest:

Photos of Amtrak “No Trespassing Signs”

Photos of trains seen from behind bars or from jail cells are particulary nifty.

Submit lots of these. They get enough of these it WILL be news and somebody will follow up.
79 Dean Sherman // Jan 5, 2009 at 10:44 PM

Amtrak should “do the right thing” and immediately fire these guys for being too ignorant of the law and company policy to continue in their position. Put the fear-for-their-jobs into the other rent-a-cops out there!
80 Phillybits // Jan 5, 2009 at 10:49 PM

I forgot how I even got here tonight but I too had a similar situation involving shooting photos on the Ben Franklin Bridge in Philadelphia. It wasn’t as extreme as what happened here; I wasn’t arrested but I was stopped by police, told I couldn’t take pictures of the bridge, had police use intimidation techniques (“if I have to come up here again…”) and when I tried to do follow-up with the various authorities, couldn’t get anywhere.

It’s happened several times to me and my friends.

So anyway, here’s what happened to me.

http://flickr.com/photos/phillybits/2088958021/
81 Carlos Miller // Jan 5, 2009 at 10:59 PM

Phillybits,

These stories are happening everywhere and every day.

It’s insane.

Thanks for reading.
82 Ken Dupuy // Jan 6, 2009 at 1:41 AM

Don’t put all the blame on the conservative Republicans. Remember, the PATRIOT Act passed the Senate 98-1-1. They don’t agree that well on their own pay raises!
83 Ethan Warner // Jan 6, 2009 at 10:54 AM

What an empowering story of someone who is actually fighting the corrupt corporate power structure! My heart goes out to Duane Kerzic in his heroic struggle against injustice.
84 Chuck // Jan 6, 2009 at 12:14 PM

This is the what happens when the general public cowers in fear of the fascists that have been created over the past few years by the fear mongers. They are even trying to pass them off as good guys with thier own T.V. show!! They are authority abusing fascists. TSA stands for Transportaion Stormtroopers Association. America stop being wimps, the constitution is still in force despite that they try to fool you.
85 Matt // Jan 6, 2009 at 1:53 PM

This is your comeuppance for demanding maximum security at whatever cost. As if the law enforcement officers weren’t already given too much power–freaking out and assuming the worst in every situation is only bound to make the pigs even more likely to crap all over our Constitutional rights.
86 kris // Jan 6, 2009 at 2:26 PM

Having taken Amtrak from California to Philadelphia (and back) this passed November, this isn’t very surprising. While I wasn’t arrested, I was told numerous times by security at Chicago’s Union Station, Washington DC’s Union Station, Penn Station and Philly’s 30th Street Station that photography wasn’t allowed. I was even told, while on the Lakeshore Limited, that photography while on the train was not permitted!
Obviously by the pictures on my site, this didn’t stop me.

I find it hilarious that they get their panties in a bunch over someone taking pictures, but there is ZERO security to get on the trains. We were never asked for ID and our bags were never checked. But I guess if they aren’t going to guard the trains, they must get bored and need to harrass someone.
87 Carlos Miller // Jan 6, 2009 at 2:39 PM

Kris,

I guess it’s easier to harass the occasional photographer rather than search everybody’s bags, and still be able to go home thinking you’ve kept the rails secure.
88 rob // Jan 6, 2009 at 3:39 PM

anyone who believes that the cops care about right and wrong has never been in that situation. To them it was personal, just like the guy that got shoved off his bike and then the cop charged the BIKER with assault. They told him to do something and he refused! At that point it didnt matter what was legal or not. That guy WILL win, but he had to spend 90 min handcuffed in a cell. (lucky it wasnt longer) ANY time you tell a cop YOU know the law better than he does, youve made it personal. and thats why the tight handcuffs. “how does that feel perry mason?” Now thats the real reason they dont want the cameras there, they can disprove the way they said it went down. But unfortunately there are never any consequences for these cops. The guy on the bike that was pushed over by the cop, could have been looking at a felony charge for assaulting a cop and got lucky that there was a vid. But what about the cop that lied, and his partner who backed up his story (lied)? Are they arrested, (for assault) or even reprimanded? Not on your life!
89 G Fucarino // Jan 6, 2009 at 4:00 PM

This story is somewhat funny
It all depends on what police force you are dealing with and where you get arrested.
I can tell you in all honesty that the LIRR MTA police are great to deal with.
As a PJ covering major events in the NYC area, I have had some experience with the Long Island Rail Road and the MTA police
One time I was covering a person whom was accidently pushed as she was leaving a train and fell between the space between the train and the gap.
Her injuries were serious enough that she required medical attention
The train was held up at the station while an investigation was conducted.
I got to the scene of the incident and filmed the area and even bored the train in question with my video camera / all this while there were still Rush Hour passengers still on board.
The LIRR MTA police seen me performing my job and did not interfere with me.
What really is funny is the fact that Amtrak runs its trains in the same station and same terminal as the Long Island Rail road. If in fact what you were doing was done two to three platforms over the LIRR MTA police jurisdiction would have taken over and the end results may have been different.
I think this is a clear example of the differences between professional and paranoid policing.
90 plusaf // Jan 6, 2009 at 5:51 PM

paranoia runs deep…. into your mind it will creep….

reminds me of the story of the guy on the airplane holding his headset next to a small tape recorder…

the stewardess [this was some years ago...] asked him what he was doing. “i’m recording the ground-to-air channel. i’m a lawyer. if there’s an accident, i’ll want evidence for the lawsuit.”

a few minutes later the ground-to-air-channel was turned off by the cockpit crew and was rarely available to anyone, any time, flying that airline ever again….

sounds like more of the same, processed through another paranoid organization… so sad.
91 Mike in NoVA // Jan 6, 2009 at 7:53 PM

Kris,

last spring my wife and I took the Capitol Limited to Chicago and then the Empire Builder all the way to Seattle and was never challenged on my photography. Indeed, several times train personnel asked to look through the camera (I had a nice big lens on it most of the time). One of the conducters even let me lean out of the open window of one of the doors while the train was moving slowly thru the mountains. Generally the personnel on the trains are very camera-friendly. Its usually the gestapo in the stations that havn’t got a clue that are so scared of big old bad SLRs.

If Mr. Kerzic had been using a point-n-shoot or even a cell phone camera he would not have been approached at all.
92 Spokker // Jan 6, 2009 at 8:37 PM

Amtrak crews, in my experience, in general (I have only traveled on Amtrak California state routes and the Coast Starlight) are friendly and personable. Sometimes they joke around. Often they are very open and honest about delays. Sometimes they look tired, or grumpy, but that’s understandable, at least to me.

I agree with the above post. It’s the station staff, most often security (whether it’s Amtrak police or rent-a-cops) that are insane.
93 Joe Calatrello // Jan 6, 2009 at 11:21 PM

this is the type of brutality at the hands of athority in America that makes me sick. We are supposed to live in a democracy and yet citizens of this “free country” can’t take photographs in public. All it takes if for police to say something is a crime and the judicial system gets behind them to keep John Q. public down in lengthy legal processes (which includes sending people to jail) If taking the hpotos of the train and the station are the only things done to attract the cops attention in that incident I do not see how that act is a crime against the very fabric of society unless the powers that be in our government mean to tell us that we as American citizens are not entitled to certain inaliable rights that the U.S. Constitution provides for the people of this nation. Where is the Henry David Thoreau of our time? I wish you the best of luck on your case against the transit police and any way that I can possibly help I will.
94 laurentius-rex // Jan 7, 2009 at 3:37 AM

So the USA is not a free country and photographers are subject to the same harrasment they would have been in the former Soviet Union, or the other paranoid dictatorships of the world.

In the UK at least it would be a civil issue not a criminal one. Here one is not technically allowed to photograph trains without permission on private property, however the great British tradition of train spotters has ensured that this is a rule more often observed in the breach than the obeyance.

Recently I was filming without permission in Coventry City Centre with a group of students. We were observed by the surveillance camera. All that happened was that we were told we should have got permission first, but were allowed to go on filming.

I have also filmed openly on trains and buses in the UK, and some of the results are even available commercially.

We are still freer than the US. What did you fight your revolution for?
95 Living Free // Jan 7, 2009 at 4:06 AM

So much for living in the “Land of the Free”!!! What a joke.
96 bh // Jan 7, 2009 at 5:42 AM

america seem to be ill …
97 Jay // Jan 7, 2009 at 10:51 AM

Sue the hell out of em, this is the only way artists can make money in America, by lawsuits.
98 killer weed // Jan 7, 2009 at 8:23 PM

Hey, people, a few things: see those third rails and the bidirectional platforms? This is a subway station. NOT an Amtrak station. The NYPD does not allow the photography of MTA facilities. Amtrak Police, if such a thing exists, would have as much authority in the place pictured here as a Burger King security guard at Fort Knox.

get your story straight, someone is lying.
99 Spokker // Jan 7, 2009 at 10:10 PM

Are you high? There’s no ban on photography in the New York Subway.

http://www.mta.info/nyct/rules/rules.htm

“Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment.”
100 Duane Kerzic // Jan 7, 2009 at 10:55 PM

I think he was smoking too much KILLER WEED. It’s Penn Station NY, it serves Amtrak, NJ Transit and the LIRR. There are even photos of the trains with the logos on them.

There is a section of the patriot act that mentinos photography, (8) surveils, hotographs, videotapes, diagrams, or otherwise collects information with the intent to plan or assist in planning any of the acts described in paragraphs (1) through (6);

You can read the whole section here, http://amtrak.duanek.name/PatroitAct.html

Seeems to me the guys failed reading comprehension because they failed to read the entire paragraph. I’m trying to get Carlos to do an article on this.

I checked on my FOIA requests today and they didn’t call me back.
101 Carlos Miller // Jan 7, 2009 at 11:04 PM

Killer Weed,

The NYPD does not make the laws although they sometimes try to enforce non-existent laws.

There is no ban of photographing MTA facilities.

http://carlosmiller.com/?s=mta
102 killer weed // Jan 8, 2009 at 12:00 AM

some of my prior statements i retract. others i do not.
103 Carlos Miller // Jan 8, 2009 at 12:05 AM

Well I guess that narrows it down
104 realist // Jan 8, 2009 at 1:21 AM

“Marie B. // Dec 27, 2008 at 11:12 am

This is unbelievable. I am hearing more and more about people being treated like criminals for acting like citizens that live in a free country.”

A free country? Buhahahahaaaaaa!! Oh man, good stuff…
105 laurentius-rex // Jan 8, 2009 at 5:37 AM

You know terrorists don’t much care for rules and regulations. If a terrorist really wanted to surveil a station he would not even need a hidden camera, a sketch pad would suffice. The whole of the Himalayas were surveyed in the 19th century by surveyors disguised as Monks.

All stupid regulations do is force things underground and penalise the legitimate.

I have attempted in the UK to make videos in shopping malls and other private places, the worst that has ever happened is that the security people have asked me to stop and told me to get permission. There is no need for thuggery.

Trespass is a civil offence not a criminal one, and although the owners of a building do have a right to eject anyone they do not like (and frequently do) they do not have a right to prevent them access in the first place if they are there for a legitimate purpose in business hours.

I did ask the security once in a shopping mall why they objected to me filming, and they said that I could be recording there security cameras. How ridiculous does that get.

In other place I told them that I had a legal right under the data protection act (a European regulation) to access the surveillance photographs of them telling me to stop making my video, that non plussed them. Most surveillance cameras in this country are being used illegally because the people who set them up do not know the regulations..
106 HRoseMD // Jan 8, 2009 at 6:14 PM

This is just a little taste of what is to come. Remember, if someone is wearing a costume, (I mean,… uniform) just keep your head bowed and bleat “sir, yes sir”, on cue.

I wonder how these private Sturmabteilung would behave if they knew that a moderate proportion of the crowd surrounding them was likely armed AND had a more properly developed moral sense of what is right and wrong.

BART shooting captured on video
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/06/MNOV154P0R.DTL

We never learn.
107 JDog // Jan 8, 2009 at 6:45 PM

Transit Cops charged with protecting what is considered “critical infrastructure” take their job VERY seriously.

Strictly speaking, police forces such as those of Amtrak and PANYNJ are custodians of private property, and their commands and orders express the will of the property owner and failure to comply means you are trespassing — at least that’s the way they tell it.

I did some investigative work on a web forum that is home to PAPD and other transit cops.

Read the lively and edifying exchange here:
http://www.transitcop.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4025
108 Dwight // Jan 8, 2009 at 8:05 PM

This is the result of 9/11, which has yet to be seriously investigated. It troubles me that a country with so many lawyers has bought the official story, when it has so many holes.
109 Seth // Jan 8, 2009 at 9:14 PM

Oh come on, what do you expect, the cops are hired by the government and Amtrak is run by the government — and anyone with above average intelligence who is capable of making the rational decisions that would have prevented such a confrontation is going to be working in the private sector making more money anyway, so it’s a made-to-order recipe for civil rights abuse, or worse. If you don’t want to be abused, stay away from government employees. This guy got off lucky. He could have been in the Fruitvale Station instead of Penn Station. At least he didn’t get shot in the back and killed.
110 Carlos Miller // Jan 8, 2009 at 9:56 PM

JDog,

Interesting thread, especially how they act as if these infrastructures are private property.

They don’t understand the concept of tax-funded infrastructure.

Or tax-funded salaries for that matter.
111 The Skeptical Cynic // Jan 9, 2009 at 12:53 AM

As a senior citizen, I can remember as a child “the policeman is your friend” I filed that away under B for Bull Poop along with the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and the stork story about babies.

Most cops have always been bullies. 9/11 made them all thugs. Can you imagine if these thugish slugs had tasers. Poor Carlos would have ended up looking like a over cooked chili dog!
112 Gregg Scott // Jan 9, 2009 at 9:30 AM

Every so often I head to the city to do some shooting – I leave my guns at home. I leave them home so I don’t get mistreated by law enforcement for practicing my second amendment rights so I can practice my first. I use to live in NYC. 9/11 – I got the hell out of there – this story is one of the reasons why; when a country looks at its fellow citizens as the enemy rather than attacking it’s actual enemy (islamo based fascism) we are all about to die it’s just a matter of how and when. Lib’s don’t see it because they buy into the notion of the benevolent state – nothing is benevolent when you give it a monopoly on force. Thank the man upstairs you didn’t panic, you’d be dead.
113 JDog // Jan 9, 2009 at 9:31 AM

Carlos,
It is the corporate structure of these “public” agencies that privatizes the property.
In what is fast becoming a corporatist (fascist) society, this will be more common.
It really doesn’t have anything to do with tax payer dollars. Do you think that since AIG got a huge taxpayer bailout that any of us can go onto their corporate property?
114 Bean // Jan 9, 2009 at 10:06 AM

Who hates us because of our “freedoms”?

License, control and antimidate has forever been the creed of the State. Welcome to Facism in the land of, “problem-reaction-solution” or the Heglian Dialectic, if people want freedom, they better figure out what the principles of freedom are and start to live it and breath it! Don’t let oppression happen to you and don’t just shrug while it is happening to others. Jury nullification, get your children OUT of public schools, understand central planning, Fiat money systems, read up on Collectivism, ABOVE ALL ELSE turn off your television and start critically thinking about your own belief system. Forget the left vs. right BS it is a LIE, we all want something better for the future – ps Terrorism (fear) has a history of being the sure road to government tyranny. Going along to get a long will seal our doom.
115 Rob // Jan 9, 2009 at 11:08 AM

As outrageous and horrifying as this (yet another) criminal assault by the gang in blue is, it should not surprise anyone… Afterall, it occured in NYC, a mini police state, particularly post 9/11. Further, such jack booted thuggery is not an isolated, anomalous phenomena in this country anymore, but rather a widespread problem coast to coast with our increasingly authoritarian, militarized police; i.e. armed thugs who get off lording real and imagined authority at gun point. One can read about murders, assaults, beatings, rapes , illegal searchs/harrassment at gestapo-like checkpoints, and a laundry list of abuses perpetrated by cops “just doing their jobs” on a daily basis around this allegedly free country. FYI “Officer friendly” is NOT your friend, but rather increasingly an istrument of arbitrary state control, surveilance, harrassment, revenue enhancement i.e. theft and corruption; all conveniently under the pretense of legitimate authority. Police budgets encourage/reward conflicts of interest through issuance of tickets and asset forfeiture abuses. Any benefit or service provided by police at all levels is ancillary. There primary purpose is to control you.

Police have no legal ability or responsibility to protect you, yet they will zealously enforce every unconstitutional law to ensure that you are unarmed and defenseless at every opportunity. Incidentally, so-called “law enforcement officers” (an egregiously unAmerican concept) are a common denominator in every assault on freedom, every oppressive regime and every genocide perpetrated historically around the world. They are armed thugs enforcing the will of those who rule; at the end of the day noncompliance ultimately will result in them killing you.

All are (and were) of course “just doing their jobs”, enforcing the law (no matter how draconian, arbitrary or stupid), cracking down on dissent, and maintaining the status quo (no matter how unjust) at gun point and all at the expense of those they “serve”. Ban coffee and cigarettes, ban blond hair; these assholes will enforce the law and kill you for being afoul of it.

The photographer who was wronged in this case, got off easy. Thankfully he was not tasered to death, nor had a broom stick shoved up his ass, nor shot in the head 30 times because he wore a coat that was too big and didn’t respond fast enough to their threats.
116 Jim Davidson // Jan 10, 2009 at 4:49 PM

I gave up on the passenger trains in this country in the 1980s. Way too much nonsense. Trains were fun in the 1960s when they were still private, but the government has sucked all the fun and beauty out of them.

And I gave up on the passenger airlines in 2002 after a run-in with Southwest Airlines. I’m disgusted with the level of fascism and authoritarianism. Americans shouldn’t be so inured to it. But, they are, which is a shame.

This process of policy bullying and brutality is not going to get better. It is going to get much worse. And resistance – is it really only going to consist of photographers patiently explaining to police that the airline or train service is running a photo contest?

There was a time in this country when the line “papers please” in the film “Casablanca” would evoke boos and hisses from the entire audience. America has become a bunch of sissies too enamored of their wage slave 9 to 5 jobs to do anything about freedom, it seems. Kinda sad.
117 Archie1954 // Jan 10, 2009 at 8:17 PM

I think it’s time for a nice fat lawsuit against the egregious activity of a second rate railway company. Actually I take that back, the company is in fact third rate, much too stupid to realize that you don’t encourage photographers then arrest them for doing what you asked them to do. Some heads should roll over this PR disaster. Preferably the chief of the Amtrak police force along with the two stupid officers.
118 Jim Davidson // Jan 10, 2009 at 8:30 PM

Besides a lawsuit, one might also ask the question: should the government own all the passenger rail service in the country? They sold off Conrail a few decades ago, and it wasn’t the end of the world.
119 Mike // Jan 13, 2009 at 9:31 AM

JDog…

That thread on TransitCops is amazing. These guys honestly thing the public properties that they work on are their own private property.

“If you don’t like it, get off our bridge.” by David Webb

Me thinks he watched too much Dragnet as a kid. LOL

ImSour states… “Refusing to comply with the police request to abide by those policies and rules constitutes refusing to comply with a lawful order, which subjects you to arrest for trespass.”

He is right, but the order must first be “LAWFUL”. You are under no legal compunction to comply with an unlawful order (such as “delete those photos!).

Who have we turned our country over to? jeez!!!

???
120 Chuck // Jan 13, 2009 at 8:57 PM

I think in light of the BART cops in Oakland he is lucky they didn’t just shoot him dead so he could not tell his side of the story.
121 Tony Smith // Jan 13, 2009 at 9:00 PM

I finally got a response from Amtrak:

“Dear Mr. Smith:

Thank you for your email of December 27, 2008, to our Media Relations offices.

Generally, Amtrak’s policy is that ticketed passengers may take photographs on board our trains that do not interfere with passengers, crew or other Amtrak employees. Photography is permissible only in public areas of our stations and is prohibited in restricted areas (for example, rights of way and other no trespassing areas, etc.). Photography on train platforms is limited to ticketed passengers who may do so briefly prior to boarding or departing from a train.

All other photography requires prior notice to Amtrak and may require an escort at the discretion of the company. For safety and security reasons, this permission may be restricted temporarily by Amtrak personnel. Amtrak’s requirement of prior notice allows the company to inform the notifying photographer of the conditions of access and when access may be temporarily denied.

Regarding the recent matter you referenced, Amtrak is conducting an investigation into the incident.

We appreciate your interest in Amtrak and hope we can serve your travel needs in the future.

Sincerely,
Lena Gray
Customer Relations Specialist
Amtrak”
122 Chuck // Jan 13, 2009 at 9:38 PM

DID AMTRAKS Lena Gray JUST SEND THE S.O.B. THE BUG LETTER?
123 Carlos Miller // Jan 13, 2009 at 9:49 PM

Tony,

In other words, “blah blah blah blah blah”.
124 Rei Kobi // Jan 15, 2009 at 2:03 PM

Laurentius Rex: the London photographer who was harrassed and arrested near his home in Elephant and Castle would probably disagree with you.
125 Rei Kobi // Jan 15, 2009 at 2:18 PM

Oh, sorry, I thought the “Website” field would put this site on my post:

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/01/11/another-london-photo.html
126 Wake up // Jan 15, 2009 at 9:16 PM

You failed to mention that the Amtrak photo contest had ended prior to this incident. You also left out that platforms are not “public areas” as stated in the “rules of the station” posted at all entrances and the “no trespassing” signs on all the platforms. My question is, if you saw three middle-eastern men acting suspiciously and taking pictures of sensitive areas that people generally don’t take pictures of, what would you do? Nothing, or tell the police? If you would do nothing you are irresponsible and naïve. If you would tell the police then you can’t expect any different treatment then the middle-eastern men would receive. Or maybe the police should just know by looking at them who is a terrorist. Bottom line is when transit systems (or other areas) are terror targets you have to play by the rules. And that means everyone, not just the bad guys.
127 Carlos Miller // Jan 15, 2009 at 9:32 PM

Wake Up,

If I saw three Middle Eastern men taking photos, I would assume they were tourists.

Terrorists walk around with guns and bombs, not cameras.

Also, Duane Kerzic was preparing for the next’s year contest.

I guess you’re one of those people willing to give up their First Amendment rights for “safety”.

You should be ashamed to call yourself American.
128 Scott // Jan 15, 2009 at 10:16 PM

I’m with Carlos, remember the words of one of our founding fathers, Benjamin Franklin,
“They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security”

Taking pictures in this day and age is not really damaging. If any terrorists wanted pictures of a train loading platform, they probably would only have to do a Google image search.
129 Jim Davidson // Jan 16, 2009 at 12:16 AM

Wakeup says that you have to play by the rules. The rules are clearly unconstitutional, the enforcement of the rules is arbitrary and capricious, the contestants are not notified about the change in status regarding taking photos, the police behave brutality and apply force disproportionately, but “the law is the law.” But the law stinks, and anyone who obeys the law or advocates obedience also stinks.

In his novel “Les Miserables,” Victor Hugo puts the words “the law is the law” in the mouth of the stupid and irrational police inspector Javert. Thus the term “Javertism” to describe extreme procrustean application of the law.

Gosh, that’s probably over Wakeup’s head. So, let’s take procrustean apart, too. Procrustes was a character in Greek mythology, a son of Poseidon who would offer a bed to travelers, secretly adjusting it ahead of time. It would always prove too long or too short a bed, and Procrustes would stretch his victims on the rack, or amputate their feet to make sure they would fit. He was finally killed by Theseus who put Procrustes to bed and chopped off his head.

The law is wrong. In a free country, we should not obey laws that are wrong. We should disobey them, and force the laws to be changed. Where necessary, we should defend ourselves against the procrustean application of unjust laws with self defense, including up to deadly force as we see fit.

Anyone who disagrees is a coward or a bully, or both.
130 Carlos Miller // Jan 16, 2009 at 12:44 AM

Thanks Rei Kobi,

http://carlosmiller.com/2009/01/16/uk-anti-terrorism-act-is-nothing-but-an-anti-photographer-act/
131 Robert // Jan 18, 2009 at 5:37 PM

It is obvious the guy should have been stopped and his camera gear taken from him. He had a ticket to ride on the train, arrive at his destination and leave.
Quit picking on the police as they were only doing their jobs and prevented this picture taker from getting photos that could easily have been used by terrorists for almost anything.
He is lucky he was only stopped and is not in jail for his attitude and snoopy subversive photo activities.
132 Chuck // Jan 19, 2009 at 1:42 AM

Hey robert do you work for the
Transportation Stazi Assembly do you?

You and those who think like you will be shittin your pants when your view of the world arrives at your door huh!
133 God // Jan 19, 2009 at 3:02 AM

Hey Robert.

Go fuck yourself. Fascist pig.
134 Jim Davidson // Jan 20, 2009 at 6:34 PM

Stop picking on the police? To hell with the police, they are picking on the people.

Only doing their jobs? No. Their jobs are to serve the people and protect their liberty, not to enforce your idea of fascist totalitarianism, and stomp on human faces, forever. I know that you want the police to have absolute authority, and I know that you prefer to lick their boots, Robert, but that isn’t their job.

The police are not doing their jobs. If they are “only following orders” I remind you that following orders was not an adequate defense at Nuremberg and it isn’t an adequate defense, now. Nazi concentration camp guards were following orders, too, Robert. When you are ready to get on the cattle cars and get hauled to the camps, remember that the guards at the train stations are only doing their jobs. Remember that you said so, and that you did not rise in the defense of individual liberty when you had a chance.

I want you to go to your death by slow torture in a death camp knowing that you had the opportunity to stand up like a man against the overpowering authority and oppression of the police state and know that you chose to justify those abusing power instead.
135 edgar lloyd // Jan 23, 2009 at 10:08 AM

This fiasco just shows the paranoia of the post 9-11 world that the spector of McCarthyism is alive and well and living at penn staion.
“So tell me mr photog, are you now or have you ever been a member of an islamic group?” This sort of gestappo thuggary by a quasigovermental agency is disgusting. Maybe those officers will get what is comming to them and be thrown onto the tracks in front of an amtrak train. I am not sure I would even bother calling 911 or trying to stop the train if it were possible
136 Chuck // Jan 23, 2009 at 2:04 PM

Edgar lets call a spsde a spade, quasi-govermental is identical to fascist.

Fascism is a totalitarian nationalist and corporatist ideology. It is primarily concerned with perceived problems associated with cultural, economic, political, and social decline or decadence, and which seeks to solve such problems by achieving a millenarian national rebirth by exalting the nation, as well as promoting cults of unity, strength and purity.
Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism (including national socialism, national syndicalism, economic nationalism, along with collectivism, mysticism and populism based on the nationalist values); corporatism (including class collaboration, economic planning, mixed economy, and third way); totalitarianism (including dictatorship, holism, major social interventionism, and statism); and militarism. Fascism opposes communism, conservatism, liberalism, and international socialism. Fascism explicitly supports the creation of a totalitarian state.

I personally have a laminated sign that I place inside on top of my packed clothes when flying that says, “Go ahead smell my dirty shorts you fascist piece of shit.” I close my suitcase with a zip tie, and if asked if it is locked will reply NO. If the little Stazi bastards are going to violate my 4th amendment rights then at least I know they did it. I will not speak to any of them, just look them in the eye and ignore them. My favorite thing is to make them change thier “dirty” gloves before they touch anything of mine. It is extremely hard to change those gloves after having built up moisture in the same pair for a while., its fun to watch them struggle with that. Not to mention the transmission of disease they are accomplishing, but I digress.

Did you see about the annual ride the train with no pants day in New York recently? Apparently they gather hundreds of folks to ride the subway without pants. Too funny. So why not have a take a picture at the train station day, gather several hundred or more people to all ride the same trian and then all stand around with your tickets taking photos!! What do you think? Will the little penis boys try to arrest all of you? Call out the rest of thier Stazi brothers to jump the train down the tracks somewhere?

People need to learn to stand up for themselves, resist wrongs committed upon you. Ask questions. Speak out loud so others can hear the stupidity of thier answers.
137 Chuck // Jan 23, 2009 at 2:32 PM

Comment moderation is enabled. Your comment may take some time to appear.

????????????????????? Censorship????????
138 Carlos Miller // Jan 23, 2009 at 2:36 PM

Chuck,

Comment moderation is enabled because I have the Super Cache plugin turned on.

My blog is experiencing heavy traffic and this is the only way I can keep my blog from crashing the server.
139 Duane Kerzic // Jan 28, 2009 at 1:20 AM

HI again,

I haven’t been here in a while and see this is still getting lots of traffic.

The Supreme Court of the US has found Amtrak is a government controlled corporation which is different from a goverment owned corporation which it also is. As such it’s required to allow all kinds of First Amendment Activity that could be limited on property owned by a private corporation.

Everyone always wants to site the prevention of terrorism as a reason to limit photography. Yet no one has ever shown any photography actually used in a terrorist attack. That’s because only the terrorists in the movies use photography to plan an attack. Photography works wonders as a plot builder and suspense increaser. A suicide bomber doesn’t need a photograph to find the place where the most people are in a station at a particular time. All they have to do is look when they arrive with their bomb and head for the most people. Lets be real how much planning do you think goes into terrorist attacks. Not as much as anyone thinks, they aren’t these well rehearsed ‘surgical’ attacks designed to have minimal collateral damage. The more collateral damage the better. They don’t care if they kill an extra 200 people, so the need for precision planning and exicution just isn’t there. Also a terrorist attack that kills 100 people is as effective as one that kills 1000 for the most part.

The platforms in Penn Station NY are intended for accessing transportation without question. You can review the complete rules of conduct for Penn Statoin here, http://www.duanek.name/amtrak/PennStationRulesofConduct.pdf. The important sentence fragment in that document is “… Public areas are those areas of the facility which are intended for use by the public in accessing transportation, …”. So according to the rules the platforms are a public area. You can’t have it both ways unless you do a good job of telling people when they are and are not allowed to be in a public place. Just because you up up a sign doesn’t mean the sign is enforceable.

As far as police taking someone’s camera or making them delete a photograph. That is also covered by the First Amendment . There must be due process in a court of law before a persons property can be taken. So when any police, security guards or others try to make you delete a photo or take your equipment from you without returning it unless due process allows otherwise they are stealing your property and should be charge with that crime.

Ok.. that’s if for now.
140 Jeff // Feb 1, 2009 at 8:14 PM

the security at Penn Station is a joke.you can walk right down to the platforms without showing your ticket when trains are announced by the use of the lower level staircase under the arrival & departure boards. Amtrak police are useless. Amtrak just wants them to be seen not heard when a real problem happens. recently no tresspassing signs have been installed at the lower level staircases but nobody enforces the signs. Anyone can gain access to the platforms at anytime. security is a joke and so is amtrak police and their management.
141 Duane Kerzic // Feb 1, 2009 at 8:56 PM

Jeff,

I was wondering if you can remember when the signs on the lower level were put up. I had not seen the signs before either. But I can’t tell where the signs apply to.

You can send me an email if you want.
142 Chuck // Feb 2, 2009 at 12:02 PM

The main problem is the so called and definately incorrectly named PATRIOT ACT! Nothing like disguising Fascism as Patriotism! All we have done is focus all our attention on some airlines. Still to this day the drug dealers have no problem getting thier stuff on the planes. See what the enemies of thisd country realize is that they justr have to sit back and wait. They were patient the first time and cuaght us with our pants down. The TRANSPORTATION STAZI ASSOCIATION, is not going to stop anything it just give males with “little man” syndrome and “little teeny pee-pee’s” a new way to get even for thier inadequacy. Airport security has never stopped anybody i9n the past and won’t stop anything in the future. THEY are out there now just watching for the next little crack they can exploit and when it happens we will say “OH MY GOD, LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED” Then being the reactionaries that we are we will make STAZI out of some other little man.

It won’t get any better until we stand up for ourselves

Remember;

Those who can give up essential libeties for some temporary safety and security deserve neither liberty nor security —B. Franklin
143 Duane Kerzic // Feb 2, 2009 at 5:08 PM

Hi,

The Colbert Report is doing a segment about this exact incident tonight at 11:30PM, EST for the first showing. The segment will repeat on Tuesday with the last showing at 8:30PM. As soon as the video is available I’ll embed into my site at http://www.duanek.name/amtrak.

Thanks for watching.
144 Spokker // Feb 2, 2009 at 9:06 PM

Wow, Colbert. You’ve hit the big time, Kerzic.

I’m not being sarcastic, either! I hope Colbert tears you a new one (which means he supports you. That’s his sthick right?).
145 Duane Kerzic // Feb 2, 2009 at 11:20 PM

Hey Spokker,

LTNS. yeah i can hardly wait. I’ve been sitting on this since Jan 16 when the shooting started. While I have no idea what the final looks like I can’t wait.

dk
146 Spokker // Feb 2, 2009 at 11:24 PM

What did you say to them? They could spin it so that you’re the one being made fun of.

I mean, there are elements of your story that are ripe for parody, but overall this is just another example of our terror crazy security minded society and that’s the real problem here and it’s the real issue worthy of insult and ridicule.
147 Spokker // Feb 2, 2009 at 11:26 PM

In the end I just hope he rails on the Amtrak police more than he does you!
148 Jim Davidson // Feb 3, 2009 at 2:49 AM

I enjoyed the Colbert Report’s take on this issue. I think it favored photographers and made the Homeland Security goofs look like the retards they are.

Perhaps everyone working for the unconstitutional and immoral Department of Homeland Security will be so ashamed that they’ll individually and severally quit their jobs. Or kill themselves. But, wishful thinking.
149 Spokker // Feb 3, 2009 at 5:27 AM

Haha what were you doing walking a cat?

Anyway it was hilarious. I loved the line that said the photo contest was Amtrak’s cleverest ruse since their timetables.

And Amtrak is protecting passengers from their destinations.

SHINY

LETTERS

RESPONSE
150 Duane Kerzic // Feb 3, 2009 at 12:34 PM

I’m supposed to look silly. It’s a comedy show after all. I told them I’d do some really funny stuff for them along with some serious stuff.

That’s my cat, Yahoo. Long story but he insisted on living with me when he was little and is now about 20#’s and 10 years old. I live in a huge apartment building, 20 floors on a big park in a somewhat busy city. Not safe to let your cat run around free in places like this but I still like letting him go outside, so he’s got to go on a leash so he doesn’t get lost. I’m the only one I’ve ever seen in the park walking a cat, so I knew that was funny. He also sits on command, lays down and rolls over. I never had a cat till him so I treated him like a dog.

Yeah, the “protecting passengers from their destenations” and “since their timetables” was about the best. Just too funny.

I’m glad I agreed to do the show now. I laughed so hard.

Duane
151 Carlos Miller // Feb 3, 2009 at 12:37 PM

Despite the role that Colbert always plays in being a right-wing hard-ass, even he was questioning whether or not this was a “Nailed ‘Em”.

You notice he didn’t do that in the marijuana episode.
152 Jim Davidson // Feb 3, 2009 at 1:52 PM

Duane, I’m really glad you did the show, too. It was shiny and hilarious. The bit with the cat was adorable.

You come out of the show looking like a pleasant, quirky guy who likes cats and photography. The DHS guy comes off looking like a wannabe special forces chowderhead. And Amtrak looks, well, about like you’d expect a socialized train service to look.

Keep up the good work. You rock.
153 Sergeant D // Feb 3, 2009 at 3:57 PM

Just saw the Colbert piece. Great job my friend.

And for the sturmabteilung;

Get bent.
Jerks.
154 Samuel L. // Apr 24, 2009 at 7:29 AM

This topic is quite hot on the Internet at the moment. What do you pay the most attention to when choosing what to write about?
155 GARTEL // May 8, 2009 at 11:07 AM

G-D BLESS AMERICA.
156 DoctorOfGhetto // May 16, 2009 at 10:54 PM

Freedom of speech is starting to be degraded by authority figures for a while, especially in major cities. There miscommunication between Amtrak and police. If more arrests continue to happen, Amtrak will have mounds of lawsuits sucking up their revenues.

Even our online video games are limiting free speech. Do not believe me. Go to http://www.painscourt.net, type “Xbox” in search box and listen to the representative saying they can watch over chats on their servers.
157 Jay // Jun 3, 2009 at 9:05 AM

Sorry to say but he should of asked permission 1st. Almost any person that works in the building will do.
158 G E Lloyd // Jun 3, 2009 at 10:13 AM

why should you be required to ask for “persmission” when in an open and public area? Asking just about anyone wont work since it seems one head doesnt know more than the other head about the “official policy” so it is still a crap shoot
159 Jim Davidson // Jun 4, 2009 at 3:41 AM

Only an authoritarian would say that you have to ask permission before taking photographs in a public area. Next up, grandma’s face will be smashed because she wanted a photo of her grandkids before they got on the train.

The authoritarian is a boot smashing a human face, forever. My alternative is to resist authoritarians with deadly force, when, as, and how I see fit. Or as the papal legate said outside Beziers, “Kill them all. God shall know his own.”
160 G E Lloyd // Jun 4, 2009 at 8:11 PM

I was at 30th St Station in Philly today buying tickets for a trip i am taking on saturday. I was given a folder for the tickets which had alot of fine print on it and one portion caught my eye and made me rather sick

“because of saftey reasons,First Ammendment Activities are not permitted on board Amtrak Trains, nor Amtrak Platforms”

Last time I checked our constitution has not been suspended or has amtrak done that too?
161 B // Jul 17, 2009 at 11:19 AM

I am glad he got arrested-Each time an officer goes out and puts his life on the line for some yahoo that decides he does not have to obey orders! I sick of the media beating these officers up! If you do not listen you deserve anything you get!! I want to see most of the American imbesols live a life of a cop- they have to be a teacher, preacher,counselor, mediator, tourist guide, while people are argumenative violent and plain disrespectful..all the while the officer has to maintain his composure!!! If it were me in the officers position, I probably would have hit him with my stick if he did not take direction- these officers do not like photos being taken for security reasons! thier family and lives can be endangered! so sympathy from me Carlos, you nit wit!
162 Jim Davidson // Jul 17, 2009 at 12:01 PM

There you go, B. You not only want the police to arrest photographers, you want them to beat up photographers. You want the police to be a boot smashing a human face forever.

Here’s the alternative to being kind, pleasant, and decent to people. The people can kill cops out of hand whenever we encounter them. We don’t have to cooperate. We don’t have to be peaceful. We can get sticks, and guns, and body armor, and have a good old fashioned war in the streets.

When we rioted in the 1960s and early 1970s, burned out the ROTC barracks on campuses, we kept recruiting off campus for generations, we ended the draft, we ended a brutal, ugly, useless, and deadly overseas war, and we scared the crap out of the establishment. We can do it again.

Now take it back. You don’t want to hit people with your stick unless they are being violent. Disobeying your orders, pig, is no excuse. You have no authority and no value, you are a parasite destroying the community, you are a scum who takes stolen money in every paycheck. You are evil. Taxation is theft.

The alternative to peace and compromise and talking is war in the streets. If that’s what you want, we’ve had that here, before, and we can have it again. Rioting, looting, violence, burning your home. You live in a wood house? War in the streets is preferable to life as a slave.

I spit on your authoritarianism. I revile you and everything you stand for. You aren’t law and order, you are lawlessness and disorder, the surplus order of demands for obedience.

Either the police cooperate with the people in having peace, trade, and commerce, or they can all go to hell. You believe in police brutality? I believe in millions of dead cops.
163 Rusty Shackleford // Jul 17, 2009 at 10:35 PM

Hey B. You’re an idiot. May your chains rest lightly upon you, douchebag.
164 Spokker // Jul 17, 2009 at 11:05 PM

“Taxation is theft.”

Then stop using the Internet. Its development was largely supported by government funding way back when. Taxation is the price we pay for living in a civilized society.

You responded to an extreme, retarded comment with an equally extreme, retarded comment, unless you were putting on a show. Then I commend your writing skills.
165 Tricinda // Aug 14, 2009 at 12:05 AM

Thank you for sharing your story. This just happened to me. It was awful. I weigh 90lbs & the amtrack police brutally abused me physically & verbally. I was also chained to the wall all night in the locked cell. I have a summons for trespassing as well & have to go to court at the end of Sept. Total power trip, definite police brutality, & excessive force.
166 Jim Davidson // Aug 16, 2009 at 3:40 PM

The Internet is a protocol – a few sheets of paper with sentences and numbers on them. Most of the Internet today is privately owned and operated. I’ll do whatever I please, pig, and your hateful dislike of humanity does not prevent me from using the Internet.

Taxation is theft. It is not the price we pay for living in a civilised society, but, rather the price we pay for having bullies with guns smashing human faces forever. What you have is a society where photographers are smashed to the ground by bullies and beaten with sticks, tasered, imprisoned, tortured, all without trial, without due process, without any reference to their supposedly-constitutionally-guaranteed liberties. That isn’t civilised. And it isn’t much society.

Taxation is evil and you minarchists are all evil. You want a boot smashing a human face forever, but you want the boot to be shiny.
167 G.E Lloyd // Aug 16, 2009 at 3:55 PM

Well this era is very reminiscent of the age of Joe McCarthy and McCarthyism where there was a pinko behind every pole we now have a terriorst at every train.

The more things change the more they stay the same
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169 John Media@dedicated server // Jun 8, 2010 at 10:36 AM

Wow this is really a long comment page but anyway about the topic, he wouldn’t got arrested if he just entered there legally right? I think he just got some psychological problems that’s why he did that.
170 The Grand Pooh Bear // Aug 27, 2010 at 1:15 PM

@John Media:
It helps to read the article before you post a comment and remove all doubt as to your complete ignorance of the topic.

Oh and thanks for shilling for blue light hosting, I will add them to my “never do business with” list just like the businesses who advertise in Spam.

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